Can an old dog learn new tricks?

[LiveMusic]

Can an old dog learn new tricks? (Guitar playing.)

 

I'm an avid golfer. I'm talkin' serious. Golf nut. Golfaholic. (Shoulder surgery four months ago, rotator cuff, has put me out for awhile.)

 

Anyway, on a golf forum, one time I started a thread with this "old dog can't learn new tricks" idea. About golf, that is.

 

My contention being that golf is unlike anything I've ever tried athletically. It's the hardest game I've ever tried to master. And if you don't start young... it's FAR harder to master than if you did start young.

 

 

And hey, last year, I got my handicap to a +1.2. That's _PLUS_ 1.2. Heehee. Yep, I'm bragging. Sorry. Pretty proud of that. I may never do it again due to this injury. I'm gonna frame that handicap card!

 

 

My opinion is that golf is a weird thing. If you start young (young being around age 10-13) and you stick with it, you will probably turn out to be a good golfer, probably in the 95th percentile. (You will be in the top 5% of all golfers.) If you don't start at that age, it doesn't mean that you can't get good. But the odds are VERY much against you. I'm talking, say, expert level golf. Not just beating it around.

 

Most posters to that golf thread agreed. IMHO, there's no doubt about it... that for 99% of the public, if you don't start young, it's going to be quite a task to get REALLY good. You do have your exceptions. Larry Nelson, the PGA and Sr. PGA star, he didn't start until he was 23. Heck, I didn't start until I was 21. But I promise you, I practiced as hard as anyone to get to where I got. And I had a natural inclination to take to the sport. Without some natural aptitude, I'm sure my game wouldn't be nearly as good. We each have our strong suits. If anything, I've had a knack for sports. (Brag is over, I'm just trying to make a point... that sports is something I have an aptitude for... which is appropo to this "theory" I have.)

 

Point being, that if you start early enough, even without a lot of natural talent, you can be a good golfer. If you don't have a lot of natural talent, if you start late, you will likely never be REALLY good. You can be okay, even way above average. But expert level? Ain't likely.

 

This has something to do with grooving muscle memory and a mind/body connection thing. If you have a natural aptitude for something and you build it in during the formative years (say, age 10-19) until you become decent at it, it sticks.

 

So, how about guitar playing. Or piano or whatever. Do you think that somebody like me, age 47, can get really good? If the average person hears me play, they think I'm good. I think I suck about half the time. The other half, I'm okay, but I have light years to go to be really good.

 

Do you think if I attacked guitar playing like I attacked golf last year, I could get REALLY good? We're talking DAILY practice. I'd think it would take two hours a day or more, not including study. (If my fingers could take it.)

 

On one hand, I write this because I just find it an interesting topic. On the other hand, I do have a selfish reason for wanting opinions. Because until the past month, I've pretty much been the same player I was 30 years ago. I've hardly progressed in 30 years. Of course, during that time, I didn't try to progress. I've just banged around for personal pleasure all that time. And in that time, I had a few sabbaticals where years would lapse before I drug out the guitar.

 

Now that I'm taking it seriously, I know I can improve a lot. No doubt about that. But I wonder HOW MUCH better?

 

In other words, I'm sure there are people that are just naturally inclined to be fantastic guitarists. That ain't me. Or I probably would have advanced faster 35 years ago, when I was a young pup. I guess. Or could it be because I had zero instruction back then? (Seems to me that 90% of all really good guitarists "just have IT.") Or... what do YOU think?

 

Duke

 

This message has been edited by LiveMusic on 03-24-2001 at 10:05 AM

[Tedster]

Holy Geez...

 

I think there's a balance. Yep, we can all improve. Whether some 60 year old guy who's been strumming a G chord all his life can make up his mind to be Pat Martino...welll.....

 

I think that while we can all strive to improve, the main thing is to find where we shine and focus on THAT. That's the trick that leads to greatness...and greatness can and does exist on a personal level. Don't need to be nationally famous for that.

 

I heard a Bruce Springsteen interview..where at one time he was the hottest guitarist on his block. Then, he looked around and saw that there were a lotta blocks, and he wasn't any kind of big fish anymore. Pretty average player. He changed his focus..."If I can't be the hottest guitar player, I'll be the hottest songwriter". Everyone with a love for the game of music has a gift, and you shine when you realize what that gift is. Could be vocals. Could be only a certain style of vocals. Could be your ability to hear arrangements. Could be an ability to harmonize. Could be even something as seemingly mundane but really important as being a good team player, with a natural ability to solve conflicts. Why bang your head against the wall worrying that you're not the next Eddie Van Halen when maybe you're really the next, well, Bob Dylan, for instance, or even a local "Bob Dylan". Don't focus on what you're not. Focus on what you can be, and don't ignore any angle.

[stratman_dup1]

Very well put Tedster.

[LiveMusic]

I apprecate any response but "Holy Geez?" What does that mean? You offended by the post? I just started what I thought is an interesting subject.

 

Let's go at this another way. Take me totally out of the post. The post was _primarily_ meant to initiate dialogue about learning the fundamentals of a craft while young versus taking it up when much older... whether people either "have it" or they don't... that type of thing. I shoulda left me out of it.

 

I think it's an interesting topic. I dunno... maybe you have to be a serious golfer to understand. There is no doubt in my mind (and the stats will bear it out) that golf is a sport that if you don't start early, you are gonna have a helluva hard time mastering the game... regardless how much natural talent you have. And if you start, at age 40 or 50... even if you've done great at anything you've ever tried... you may be in for a very rude awakening. It's a bitch.

 

Ask Michael Jordan, one of the greatest natural athletes this world has ever seen. Thought he would take up golf and just tear it up. Nope. Any local scratch golfer could beat his ass bad, day in and day out. And he had the best teachers and the best equipment money can buy. Now if he would have taken it up at age 12... hmmmm. No way to know if he would have been a world beater but he'd likely be four to eight shots better than he is now... which is a HUGE difference at the low handicap levels. Just because of the wonders of learning something while the muscles and brain are growing in a manner that they never will again.

 

Put that in the guitar world. Elton John takes up the guitar. You think he's gonna have a hard time mastering it? Obviously, he's a very gifted musician. Uh... that may not be a very fitting analogy for this thread. Let's say... ANYbody... age 40 or so, very musically inclined... takes up guitar. Gonna be hard to get really good?

 

And then you have teenagers (maybe due to natural ability coupled to YOUTH) that take it up and within just a few years, they are freakin' unbelievable.

 

Expert guitarists... do you think they got to where they were because they are gifted? Or because they started early? Or because they practiced like maniacs? Or all of the above?

 

FWIW, In the golf thread, I noticed something very interesting: that some people, you could tell that they had a very hard time admitting the obvious... that golf is a game that is 10 times easier to master when taken up young. It was like "How dare you propose that I can't be anything I want to be?" Well, I salute the spirit. Doesn't mean it's reality. I mean, heck it's just an open forum. No offense meant. PLUS... any given person could be the next Larry Nelson. The one in 10 million that blows the theory.

 

And I'll put one more slant on it... reality. There are LOTS of guys who have a decent golf game, say scratch golf, who get into their mid-40s and they entertain ideas of making it on the Senior PGA Tour, which begins at age 50. Whoa, big fella. Let's get real.

 

If they were to ask the opinion of several professionals, here's what they would be told. Reality is that they had better be beating every guy's ass within 500 miles. Like, kicking their butts. Young whippersnappers included. Or they won't stand a chance on even the Senior Tour. The pros are THAT good. Even the old farts. (And, hey, 50 ain't old to me!)

 

So, if you are someone who is "expert" level... at least, good enough to play professionally regularly... did you take up guitar at a young age? (I don't mean one of the world's top guitarists... just a local guy playing professionally.)

 

JMHO,

Duke

[michael saulnier]

Early learning can be a big help with music. Just like kids in Europe can learn up to 5 or more languages with ease if they start early enough, kids who get good teaching at an early age have a great start on music sight reading, and playing.

 

Besides building muscle memory, brain pathways and such, there's the amount of time that a youthful person can invest in playing guitar.

 

Although I started playing in my early teens, it wasn't until high school that I had the inclination and motivation to play for hours and hours a day. During this time I progressed very rapidly and built the fundamentals for my playing style today. Now, given the demands on my time from the non-music parts of my life, I don't get the chance to practice as much or as often as I did then... and I'm not learning as much or as fast.

 

However there is no reason that you can't learn and grow at any age. I think Joe Pass didn't get really good until he was well into his adult years, and while you may not ever gain the master level skills he had, with enough effort you should be able to achieve some reasonable level of skill.

 

Just like the hours you must have spent working on the various aspects of your golf game, becoming a better guitarist or musician is going to take some committed effort. Evaluate your current skill level, define a practice schedule, stick to it, and make some recordings of yourself periodically to monitor your progress. Just like you can't drop your golf handicap from 18 to 1 overnight, you can't expect to be an improved player without some time in practice. Also, consider a teacher. It's likely that you'll move along faster with someone who can give you some clear direction and correct mistakes as you grow.

 

guitplayer

[WoodSound]

Dear LIVE: Sure, why not? But be realistic with your

goals. Like Clint said, "know your limitations."

If you are "mature" like me, don't try something

that takes YEARS to learn. If young, maybe so.

EX: learn to play fingerstyle? Get a video or

hook up with some FS players, give yourself a

few months, try it out, you'll know shortly

if it "suits" you. Got stage fright? Play some

open mikes or practice in front of family/friends.

You'll see progress, or, if not, nothing ventured,

nothing gained. There are so many sidelines to

performing: jamming, writing, home recording,

backstage, live sound, etc. Set a reasonable

goal and feel your way....just listening to

music makes a connection. Anything more that you

can do is a blessing in and of itself. Enjoy the

simple pleasures but be DILIGENT, and you'll

surprise yourself, no doubt. Luck to ya! Wood.

[KHAN]

>>>

And hey, last year, I got my handicap to a +1.2. That's _PLUS_ 1.2. Heehee. Yep, I'm bragging. Sorry. Pretty proud of that. I may never do it again due to this injury. I'm gonna frame that handicap card!

 

 

==============

 

You BASTID ! ! !(just kidding)...When I graduated high school, My handicap hovered between 6 and 8. At age 24 I quit, cold turkey. I didn't hit a golf ball again until I was 31...

Now at age 36, I can't seem to get it under 12 or 13. In the last four years, I worked harder than I ever did in high school. I don't know exactly how this relates to the topic, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

 

I"m KHAN, and I'm a golf-a-holic.

...also a tone-a-holic...

[Tedster]

See...this is how flame wars start.

 

>>>I apprecate any response but "Holy Geez?" What does that mean? You offended by the post? I just started what I thought is an interesting subject.

 

Holy Geez... means "Where do I start? How do I put my thoughts together on this, a complex topic that bugs, or should bug every one of us?" I was in no way offended by the post. I thought it was great.

 

Now that I've explained myself...I'll go back and read the rest of the posts.

[Tedster]

And no, Live, leave yourself in, because you speak for us all. I'm not a bad guitar player...but I listen to the stuff that others here do and go "Man, I could never do that!"...but, meanwhile, they're listening to others and going "Man, I could never do that!".

 

And so it goes...and so it goes...and so it goes...and so it goes..

 

Wasn't that Nick Lowe?

[Mile]

Duke, it's more of motivation thing than anything else. If you're motivated enough, you'' get it right (solo or riff)...

Young people are pretty motivated with "I wanna be like him", "I wanna be cool" stuff... Older people tend to quit if they can't get it soon enough (well, maybe not all of them). And, of course, some youngsters are natural born quitters!!! I've been working with couple of them for few years...

So, the thing is if you want something bed enough, you'll get it eventually!!! That's it!!!

Oh, and don't worry. Tedster didn't mean anything bad with that... We're bunch of guitar players who love to write something and this is great opportunity http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Just kidding... No one will tell you anything like "what a stupid question" or "we don't answer to newbie"... all Qs are answered (if somebody knows the answer, that is)...

[Guest]

Can an old dog new tricks.

 

I started playing the guitar at 46. I'm 52. I don't practice nearly as much on the guitar as when I was ten learning the piano, or when I was 16 and wanted to be pro. I also don't have the opportunity to spend that much time.Big handicap.

 

I also remember driving in the car with my two kids, 12 and 14 at the time. They heard some silly pop song sung on the radio for the first time with four verses and they both memorized all the lyrics and the melody of the song after one hearing. I don't know if I could ever do that before, but my memory has less than one tenth that capability now.

 

good luck

 

Joe

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Can an old dog learn new tricks? (Guitar playing.)

 

Do you think if I attacked guitar playing like I attacked golf last year, I could get REALLY good? We're talking DAILY practice. I'd think it would take two hours a day or more, not including study. (If my fingers could take it.)

 

The bar has been raised to the ultimate hilt. "Good" is relative. I played guitar every waking hour I had until I was about 25; I couldn't do that now even if I wanted to, because I know my joints and muscles wouldn't be able to handle it.

 

I tell kids that I think have a natural apptitude to really try to go all out while they can, because they won't be able to later on.

 

But back to "good": you have to define your definition of "good" before you can put it up as a goal. 2 hours a day from a "beginner" standpoint isn't enough I think, unless you went about it in a completely methodical way (which is extreamely unlikely). For most people I would guess 30 minutes a day - doing whatever they consider is "playing guitar" - is the minimum for "maintaining" a degree of ability. An hour a day incrementally improves that, but not dramatically so. 2 hours - perhaps "dramatically", but only perhaps with supervised guidance in your "training" I would think, unless you're naturally hyper-kinesthetically aware.

 

Now that I'm taking it seriously, I know I can improve a lot. No doubt about that. But I wonder HOW MUCH better?

 

That's directly related to how much more you practice - but that's way too general of a question. There isn't a simple figure like a handicap to refer to.

 

have advanced faster 35 years ago, when I was a young pup. I guess. Or could it be because I had zero instruction back then? (Seems to me that

90% of all really good guitarists "just have IT.") Or... what do YOU think?

 

If you were preternaturally inclined to be a musician - instruction wouldn't matter. You would "know" how things worked from the start, and you would "know" what you would have to do to accomplish any musical goal - it would seem redundant to you to have to get instruction. It would be too easy. You would *know* if you were in this category.

 

You could still be "gifted", and respond better than average though. Actually, a really high I.Q. tends to overcome being "gifted" mechanically in my experience with students, as long as basic kinesthetic awareness is there.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[LiveMusic]

Hey, Tedster, my bad. I thought you thought that my post was kinda silly or something. Sorry.

 

One of the things I do... I am a "writer." Editors fix stuff for me but the basic stuff... I write it. It just oozes out of me. Constantly. And one thing I know is that the written word can be misunderstood. It's why I go to such lengths in creating my posts. So, I think I misunderstood you. It's quite easy to be misunderstood. In these forums, we don't have a whole chapter to get our point across.

 

I'm sure that many of my posts are too long for many people. I understand that. But one of the reasons I go into detail is because I try to do my best, within reason, to get the point across. Far too often, in emails (which are hurriedly written), a person's true intent is misunderstood. It can be a dangerous thing. Right now, I'm trying to smoothe something over with a girlfriend that she totally misunderstood. I was trying to be helpful and she took it negatively.

 

When you, Ted, hit 1,000 posts, I happened to log in to this site and I saw that number -- 1,0000. Awesome. I've been meaning to post to that other thread to congratulate you but I just haven't done it yet. So I'll do it here. Congrats!

 

The reason I congratulate you is because it is quite a valuable thing to have someone like you to be so active on a forum. There are several people on here that have helped me a lot here. And you are one of them.

 

The original post (in this thread) I wrote required probably 30 minutes to write. Quite a bit of time. I _know_ how much time it requires of you to create so many posts. And you are always helpful and entertaining. So, hat's off to you.

 

And I thought you were thinking I was being anal or something. No, I just think it's a very interesting topic. And thanks for the replies so far. This is good stuff.

 

Remember, I said that the post was created for two reasons. One is because it's an interesting subject. Second, I like reality. I don't like for somebody to tell me I can be "whatever I want to be" when it's a crock. Why? Because I hate wasting time. Life is too short. (At my age.) I wanna know how best to structure my thinking to reach my goals.

 

If I post to a forum such as this with people on it that are light years ahead of me, I respect their (your) opinion. And I want their true opinion.

 

If the consensus is that "Hey, Duke, you're work's cut out for you. People your age are probably going to need to practice twice as long as they think they are." Or "Hey, Duke, you are a fool unless you get professional instruction."

 

Whatever it is, I'm weighing all of this. Because I hate wasting time. I'll ask a question in a heartbeat. And I like this question. Rather fascinating.

 

Sorry for the bad. Peace. Good stuff, so far.

[Tedster]

Hey, Duke, no problem at all, and thanks...

 

>>Second, I like reality. I don't like for somebody to tell me I can be "whatever I want to be" when it's a crock.

 

Yep. I understand that. But, I think we stand a greater chance of succeeding at something we like rather than something we're lukewarm about. There are exceptions, of course. I've known a couple of people who love weather, find it fascinating, but couldn't do the degree due to the math involved. But that doesn't mean they still can't be fascinated by weather. Having the passion is the first step.

 

Yeah, we're not always going to be able to live up to our own expectations of what we wish we were. But we've got to recognize where our talents lie, maximize our strengths, and minimize our weaknesses. And, my favorite analogy as far as the guitar thing goes...who's a better guitar player, Frank Gambale or John Mellencamp? Now...who's sold more records? Not that selling records is a measure of one's self worth. Gambale would probably tell you, and quite truthfully, that he would have no interest in being another Mellencamp. So, it's where you put your priorities. When people tell you "You do this really well"...build on it. Ask other musicians for constructive critiques. I used to know a drummer a long time ago who was sort of awkward. But, he always would be humble and ask other musicians about where he could improve. I heard him years later and he kicked ass! He just took his time and worked out his weak spots. Wasn't Jeff Porcaro, but turned into a really solid drummer. Hey, we're all in this together, y'know. I'd like to think I know where a lot of my weaknesses are, and there are always those who are ready to point them out...hehehehehe.

[Guest]

Just some interesting thoughts I heard many times from an "old dog"- very old, very active, musician.

 

Her idea was that technique could be compared to "habits"- good habits, or bad habits, and that habits cannot be unlearned, but "overridden" by other, stronger habits.

 

So an older "clean slate" student was for her a much more promising and easier case than one who had years of deeply ingrained poor technique- bad habits.

 

However, she had a great talent for twisting/reinterpreting the ideas and intentions behind bad habits into foundations for good habits- "okay, you are pounding the keys, isn't it nice to have strong fingers, but let's look at this phrase, where are the musical stresses? only these notes require stress to make the point..."

 

Another approach this teacher had with older students was finding those skills developed in other areas and translating/transferring them into musical abilities. Sports were very important to her- someone who had spent years swinging a golf club or baseball bat has built-in experience with body and breathing control and timing, successful business men are often very good and passionate actors, an ability easily directed toward musicality, etc.

 

Starting young is a great thing, but starting young and establishing dead-end or destructive habits/techniques is worse than starting late.

 

Recently I heard some new guitar work from an old acquaintance, hoping to be impressed, but also wondering about the evolutionary potential of that person's technique as it was more than ten years ago.

 

Well sad to say, it is clear that they have painted themselves into a corner, with the fingers moving to the same places in the same way they did years ago, only less abley due to carpal tunnel syndrome.

 

A great teacher or a rabid desire and honesty with self could still do wonders, but how many teachers reading this wouldn't rather have an older "clean slate"?

 

This thread reminded me of all this. I'm just quoting, it would be interesting to hear what other teachers think.

 

 

-CB

[fet]

If your object is to move people with your music, then the important thing to develop is your mind, your spirit, your empathy with others. If you have a strong enough musical concept, you can HIRE a guitar virtuoso...

 

If your musical ideas are similar to those of Paganini, you may NOT be able to execute them yourself if starting in your 40s. If your musical ideas are similar to those of Reed or Dylan, you MAY be able to execute them yourself if starting in your 40s.

 

Guitar playing is fun, and I like to do it, and I do a few styles fairly well. It took me a long time to realize how little "guitar playing" means... the instrument is just a tool to create music. If your technique is adequate to your concept, or if your interpersonal empathy is strong enough to capture an audience's heart, then you're doing it right.

 

And keep in mind that an hour at the golf course is an hour away from your guitar...

[Chip McDonald]

Just had a new student yesterday, a guy in his late 40's maybe...

 

He remarked to me "well, I don't know what you can show me because I'm and old guy - you've never heard these songs (refering to some Dylan and Paul Simon tunes).

 

Despite the fact that I know things by Bach, Paganini, Vivaldi, Pachelbel - Coltrane and Miles predates him, not to mention the Beatles - he had the attitude that somehow his music would be elusive to me. Interesting.

 

So I start playing some Dylan and Paul Simon bits for him, and he realized what a size 9 Brooks Vapor metaphorically tasted like.

 

Age from a learning standpoint is relative, but attitude is all important. As far as I'm concerned, his attitude was no better than a kid coming in and not wanting to learn to tune his guitar because "Munky doesn't tune!" or some such...

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Guest]

Well Chip that certainly wasn't a "clean slate" student! Yeah, tunnel-vision knows no age limits.

 

Munky doesn't tune his guitar, a stagehand does with an electronic tuner then half the people on these forums get asked by the producer to spend the next 3 days in ProTools trying to turn Munky's performance into music. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by dadabobro@yahoo.com on 03-29-2001 at 04:50 AM

[Guest]

I'm 47 and learning new tricks every day and a lot of times

different ways to do the old ones.

 

------------------

William F. Turner

Guitarist, Composer, Songwriter