Is this a dumb idea for a live act?

[LiveMusic]

I keep apologizing for being so unknowledgable about everything. But how else can I learn?

 

Since I've graduated from just playing acoustically and have done zillions of hours of research on the internet, I've learned a little about a lot. And I read about sequences, repeats, loops. I dunno how all this stuff works but I do know that this new Yamaha PSR740 does that stuff. And you can buy some type of thingy that allows you to record a few seconds of guitar licks. And then you can play it back whenever you want with a footswitch. Or, I assume, you could have it play that sequence over and over.

 

I dunno how all this works. Is this called a sequence or a loop? Or is a loop made up of x-number of the same sequences?

 

So, after I first "discovered" this technology, it's been working on me. I keep envisioning this lone dude doing the following: "creating" a song before the audience... live. I mean, take a song that has repeating guitar riffs or repeating keyboard riffs or progressions or drum licks. Could you have some kind of setup where you take a couple of minutes to lay down a few sequences right in front of the audience? Maybe you would need more than one of these devices, whatever you call them. Anyway, it would be cool, seems to me, to lay all this stuff down live and then kick it in as you play guitar or keyboard or even switching back and forth.

 

Not only could you create a richer sound than just trying to pull everything off in real time, seems like it would be interesting to the audience to "watch a song being laid down."

 

Is this old hat? Do people do this? If so, what do you call it?

[Kris]

There's a guy named Keller Williams that I've seen do stuff like this. He's a pretty incredible player. Hard to describe but he is definately worth searching out. Plays acoustic and also can play a mean trumpet or trombone solo with his mouth, amongst other things, but he also constructs songs using sampler, loop, delays, live and it's pretty bad ass.

[Mile]

You got looping present for long time...

Check out Duran Duran live acts or Simple Minds...

Lexicon had that Jam Man (I think that it's called that) for long time...

It metter of memory how long sample can your device take (hold)...

[aframe9999]

That whole concept kind of scares me. laying down the song in real time in front of an audience.

 

Do I understand you that you would play the guitar part and record it (sample it or whatever) then go back and play the drum groove and record it, then go back an play the bass line and record it, and then play the whole song together all in front of an audience? My gut tells me that would be major train wreck from an audiences point of view. Even if you could pull it off techinically, you could very easily lose your audience. I get nervous when my band takes more than just a few seconds to start the next song. The audience quickly looses patience while waiting around.

 

Next question,

 

Sequences are nothing more than computer files (MIDI files) that are instructions on how notes are to be played by said instrument. (Which note, when, how loud, how long, which sound,) you could have a midi sequence that is a piano sound. change it to a trumpet and the notes would be identical. Just trumpet instead of piano. Very easy to edit. (cut and paste, delete, etc)

 

Samples are digital recordings of a live instrument (drums, whatever) and then can be 'looped' so that they repeat endlessly. Listen to alanis morrisettes albums and you hear drum loops. They could be real drums recorded (or synth) but they play a 4 measure groove and just repeat.

 

You could use either system, midi or loops, in a live situation, but I would have to think you would want to have it all produced ahead of time....

 

------------------

Andrew

 

My Band:

http://www.encoreentertainment.net/rockcandy.htm

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by aframe9999:

That whole concept kind of scares me. laying down the song in real time in front of an audience.

 

Do I understand you that you would play the guitar part and record it (sample it or whatever) then go back and play the drum groove and record it, then go back an play the bass line and record it, and then play the whole song together all in front of an audience? My gut tells me that would be major train wreck from an audiences point of view. Even if you could pull it off techinically, you could very easily lose your audience. I get nervous when my band takes more than just a few seconds to start the next song. The audience quickly looses patience while waiting around.

 

>>>>> Andrew, yeah, that's the idea. Dumb idea, huh? I dunno, I just thought it would be cool to watch the song unfold. If I were in the audience, I know I'd like it. But then again, I'm a musician wannabe. I dunno if other people would like it or not. Now, mind you, I'm not talking about spending a lot of time. If it can't be done in a couple of minutes or less, it probably wouldn't work. Some things, seems to me you could do it quickly since the riff or lick is real short. But I don't know anything about this... how long it takes the device to get ready to go.

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by aframe9999:

That whole concept kind of scares me. laying down the song in real time in front of an audience.

 

Do I understand you that you would play the guitar part and record it (sample it or whatever) then go back and play the drum groove and record it, then go back an play the bass line and record it, and then play the whole song together all in front of an audience? My gut tells me that would be major train wreck from an audiences point of view. Even if you could pull it off techinically, you could very easily lose your audience. I get nervous when my band takes more than just a few seconds to start the next song. The audience quickly looses patience while waiting around.

 

>>>>> Andrew, yeah, that's the idea. Dumb idea, huh? I dunno, I just thought it would be cool to watch the song unfold. If I were in the audience, I know I'd like it. But then again, I'm a musician wannabe. I dunno if other people would like it or not. Now, mind you, I'm not talking about spending a lot of time. If it can't be done in a couple of minutes or less, it probably wouldn't work. Some things, seems to me you could do it quickly since the riff or lick is real short. But I don't know anything about this... how long it takes the device to get ready to go.

[aframe9999]

Lots of technical issues that would need to be resolved. for example, what about chord changes? what about the bridge? what about the third verse that is half as long as the first two? You would need to play the entire song to get it to work, and several times at that... once for the bass, once for the rhythm guitar, once for the drums etc.

 

Now, if you were going to do like a jazz thing where it's just a basic progression over and over i could see how it could work. play the progression, add some drums and bass and start jamming.

 

the only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked.....

 

By the way, I sure as heck don't have all the answers, but I got loads of opinions............. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[LiveMusic]

I don't know how I'm supposed to make a former quote work in a new post...

 

Originally posted by aframe9999:

Lots of technical issues that would need to be resolved. for example, what about chord changes? what about the bridge? what about the third verse that is half as long as the first two? You would need to play the entire song to get it to work, and several times at that... once for the bass, once for the rhythm guitar, once for the drums etc.

 

>>>>> Uh... that's not quite what I'm talking about? I think. I'm not talking about doing the whole song. I'm talking about recording a few parts and then bringing them in live.

 

You know how some songs start out (or not necessarily start out) with a riff or a lick or a percussion lick or whatever you call it... and IT'S VERY RECOGNIZABLE. It's so recognizable that when you play it, instantly, the audience knows what song it is. Or at least, they know it's something that they'll soon catch because they remember the riff.

 

And you would kick it in when it comes into the song... wherever that is. I am envisioning the ability to do several of these. Not just one. Maybe you would need more than one repeater thingy.

 

Can you trigger a certain sample on a keyboard with a footswitch?

[Kris]

Keller Williams only has his voice and his acoustic. You could start out the beat by tapping it out on the acoustic body or whatever... then add a funky rhythm acoustic part, then use your mouth trumpet ... etc, add midi to your guitar and you've got a wealth of instruments at your finger tips... just get creative... im sure it's not easy and it would be really tough to pull off a complex song arrangement this way, but a funky jam would definately be in order.

[stanner]

well i have been a kinda guy for a very long time-have bought and used every kind of looper box that has come out since the early 80s. its just me on stage w/ guitar and amp and a rack full of stuff-and all nite long its looplooploop. some things are short and sweet and other things go on for a while...

there's lotsa people doin this...go to

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

I dunno how all this works. Is this called a sequence or a loop? Or is a loop made up of x-number of the same sequences?

 

A *delay* loop.

 

Check out David Torn, Robert Fripp... Go see Steve Morse live and watch what he does during his solo spot. Brian May used loops to a degree live to emulate his multi-tracked guitar parts sometimes.

 

The point is to utilize syncopated rhythmic accents that happen when you loop something - and to let it become an ergonomic thing as it evolves. Why try to make it rigidly compartmentalized if it doesn't have to be?

 

Lexicon made a delay box called the "Jam Man" specifically for that purpose. All you need is a bunch of digital delays - old ones are cheap now and most all of them had hold and bypass jacks on them. The Korgs had a couple of cool features for that purpose... You'll need a little mixer to blend everything together if you want to do it right.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

A *delay* loop.

 

Check out David Torn, Robert Fripp... Go see Steve Morse live and watch what he does during his solo spot. Brian May used loops to a degree live to emulate his multi-tracked guitar parts sometimes. Eric Johnson does things over loops sometimes: check out his first instructional video.

 

The point is to utilize syncopated rhythmic accents that happen when you loop something - and to let it become an ergonomic thing as it evolves. Why try to make it rigidly compartmentalized if it doesn't have to be?

 

Lexicon made a delay box called the "Jam Man" specifically for that purpose. All you need is a bunch of digital delays - old ones are cheap now and most all of them had hold and bypass jacks on them. The Korgs had a couple of cool features for that purpose... You'll need a little mixer to blend everything together if you want to do it right.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Mile]

Brian May used loops to a degree live to emulate his multi-tracked guitar parts sometimes. [/b][/b]

 

I've listened to Brian May's Brighton Rock solo...Extensive use of delay units. Pretty cool!!! Maybe later work involved use of loops?!?

[KBP]

Just had to interject.

 

No way Live band, Don't think that that is stupid. I once saw this band where the guitar player was running I believe a jam man and he did this really cool riff, then (not expecting him to) he stepped on a pedal at the end of the riff and just stood back for a couple of bars,(real erie Zepplin type of loop) Then the whole band came in over top of it with an even nastier riff with this shit looping behind it. Sooooo cool. Been wanting to fuck with something like it ever since. I usually end up just puttin stuff on adat. Not nearly as cool as actually laying it down live. My first concern was the fact that my band has taped background stuff and we are on a click. So I was worried about what ever I was doing was not gonna loop in time with the song. The way that other band did it was no click, and the guitar loop never showed up anywhere else in the song. Which to be honest, the song lacked after the intro. So if you can figure out a way to make it work and are creative about it, so that it becomes a part of YOU'RE style. Fuck everyone else and do it. Theres nothing that can be stupid (for real) only badly exicuted. Stupid is soooo Opinion based. Theres not enough inovative guitar players out there. Everyone seems to be stuck on last centuries technology "Distortion". Go for it!

KBP

[art]

There's the Boomerang loop sampler. I've heard good things about that unit. I have the Line 6 Delay Modeller which has a loop sampler in it. It's pretty limited - up to 14 seconds - but it can be manipulated (double time, half time, backwards, etc..) I used it at an open jam session once. I started doing The Who's "Baba O'Riley". It started out so cool until the band got out of sync with my loop. That's when "cool" turned to "hilarious"......

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by aframe9999:

That whole concept kind of scares me. laying down the song in real time in front of an audience.

 

That sounds like a whole lot of fun to me.

 

I'm scheduled to play an outdoor festival in May with a drummer and a bass player I've played with before, but we've never rehearsed. We'll be making up an entire set of fusion music as we go. Pulling stuff like that off is big time fun, assuming the people you play with are on it...

 

Loops are fun to a point, but get old... I envy piano players.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[robotobonhome.com]

There's a very cool improv band called Hovercraft, and their guitar player has a rack full of walkmans with tapes of loops and noises running into a mackie 1202, into a poweramp, into a 4x12. He turns the walkman loops on and off with these footswitches he made out of powerstrips, totally ingenious.

 

They're also the loudest band I've ever been in the front row for. Next to pain people, right on the threshold. Beyware.

 

Serious ass whoopin music!

 

-rob

[shoeguitarist]

check out Phil Keaggy. He uses one of those Jam Man units by Lexicon as well. He does some cool stuff like singing into the sound hole of his acoustic guitar and then harmonizing with himself via the loop. And then he'll lay down a nice lead over that.

[fantasticsound]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Bill Frissell. He samples his guitar on a pedal delay, then messes with the knobs and samples another part, then plays along. He does an incredible job of keeping the looped parts in tune with one another. Other times he creates wild slurs. Check it out.

[fantasticsound]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Bill Frissell. He samples his guitar on a pedal delay, then messes with the knobs and samples another part, then plays along. He does an incredible job of keeping the looped parts in tune with one another. Other times he creates wild slurs. Check it out.

[Jotown]

Hey Livemusic, here is the best price I could find on the "Boomerang Plus Phrase and loop recorder"

 

Sorry about the long link. Hope it helps.

 

And Kris was definitely giving you the straight line on Keller Williams. He is phenomenol, and defintitely "Badass" as Kris said. My daughter saw him at Bonaroo last summer and she turned me onto him. He is a very talented dude, and he does exactly what you describe.

 

His link is: http://www.kellerwilliams.net/

 

The bomerang link is: http://www.epinions.com/ sea rch/?submitted_form=searchbar&search_string=Boomerang%20loop%20sampler&no_results_vertical=all&no_results_vertical_name= Aint' this internet a badass thing??

[Emperator]

I've got the Line 6 EchoPro and it has a built in tap tempo function to match up your tempo. Also using Midi you can sync to tempo of the Sequencer / audio program you use.

Great fun the loop sampler. Very clean and clear.

 

and

 

Ableton Live http://www.ableton.com

 

I predict this to be the next big program out there because of the MultiTrack layout of most DAW programs but with tempo matching and pitch change built into the design with ease of use in mind.

 

Also Looping, live recording, interactively with controllers (or key commands) of functions is what Ableton Live is all about. It also has the ability to match tempos or pitch change on the fly in Real time. Quite extensive audio production program that can be used for live interactive music production.

 

2 main modes.

 

Arrange. Where it act's like a tradtitional multitrack linearly.

 

Session. Which is a kind of vertical lay out where you have audio elements that you trigger on the fly and it records the trigger events, controller moves etc. Trigger live recording on the fly etc. Editable.

 

DJ producers are all over this program. Even bands.

It has it's value as a production tool also.

 

Useful to me as I track my drummer (11 tracks) playing to recordings of favorite records with of course great drum beats / performances. We get real energy, complications, nuances and feel this way which is invaluable in WRITING a song and an arrangement. I'm able to take the real drum performances and chop and rearrange them as I write. Perspectice anyone.

 

Ableton let's you put the tempo to whatever you need after the fact. Also key shift after you've written and recorded all your parts after the fact if you need to find the best key for the vocals for example.

 

Then Rerecord the song / arrangement once it's written.

 

Probably gave away to much here.

 

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Jotown:

Hey Livemusic, here is the best price I could find on the "Boomerang Plus Phrase and loop recorder"

BTW, somewhere, buried in my emails is a guy somewhere that I don't recall who sells it (Boomerang) for $375, best I remember.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Originally posted by Jotown:

Hey Livemusic, here is the best price I could find on the "Boomerang Plus Phrase and loop recorder"

BTW, somewhere, buried in my emails is a guy somewhere that I don't recall who sells it (Boomerang) for $375, best I remember.

Hey thanks livemusic. I picked up a Boss RC-20 Loop Station today. They had an in-store demo unit and I got it for $150.00. I took it to my gig tonight and played around with it after the show. This is a way cool thing. There's no manual, so I will have to play with it for a couple of days.

 

This is a great example of how this forum works.

 

My daughter told me about Keller Williams after Bonaroo last summer. I saw him on Conan in the fall, and I was interested, but I didn't realize what he was doing. A couple of weeks ago my daughter made a mix CD of some of Kellers tunes. After listening to it for a couple of days I did some research, and I found out that he was creating these real time loops on stage.

 

I was going to post something about it, but I wanted to get more info first, and there was nothing on his site about what he was using to loop with. I had e-mailed his management and some other sources and was waiting for the replies; Then you posted this thread.

 

This is what I love about this place. This kind of synchronistic thing has happend a few times since I have been coming here. That's why I can occasionally get a bit snippy at people who are causing mischief.

 

This is a very cool hang, and we have to all take care of it, or we could lose it.

 

Thanks again for posting this thread, and thanks to everyone who responded.

[Gary Indiana Jones]

Boomerang is the way to go. Check it out on the web. You can probably do all you would need with 2 of those.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Gary Indiana Jones:

Boomerang is the way to go. Check it out on the web. You can probably do all you would need with 2 of those.

Can you synchronize them?

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Jotown:

Originally posted by Gary Indiana Jones:

Boomerang is the way to go. Check it out on the web. You can probably do all you would need with 2 of those.

Can you synchronize them?

I don't know exactly what you mean but I've heard of guys using more than one Boomerang simultaneously. In fact, that is precisely what I had intended to do.