The "vintage" thang...

[Tedster]

As I mentioned in another thread, a friend of mine has a '59 Les Paul Standard that he won't take out of the house for fear something bad will happen to it. So he plays a new Strat on gigs.

 

I met an old man here in the Kansas City area who knew three chords. Played 'em on a '54 Strat. When he was nice enough to let me play it, the thing hummed loudly, and had a couple other characteristics I wasn't too enamored with. He knew it was worth s sizable sum.

 

What is your opinion on vintage guitars? Have collectors hopelessly screwed prices up so good vintage guitars are worth more (and therefore in more danger for theft) than they oughta be? If you don't own a vintage, would you want one? Would you pay the price? (I already know Lee and Lisa's answer)..How about collectors who really aren't players (there are some), they just want to have a bunch of status symbols (thereby reducing availability and driving up prices for the people who do play)? Should they be strung up by the gonads? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Tedster]

And, along that vein, what about those who counterfeit vintage guitars??? Firing squad or lethal injection? And, what about Fender's reissues that are "aged to look vintage"??

[Lee Flier]

Yeah Ted, people like the ones you mention really piss me off, like non-players who collect vintage guitars only for their value and drive up the prices. Even players who do that piss me off. There are only so many really great vintage guitars that were made, and real players should own them, and PLAY them.

 

It also makes me kind of angry that because of the mere fact that my guitars are worth a lot of money, when I take them to a gig I have to keep them with me at every moment. My dog who passed away last year used to do a great job of standing guard duty while I loaded and unloaded, and I will probably end up getting another German Shepherd someday who'll doubtless do the same thing.

 

But I made up my mind long ago that I was not going to let paranoia talk me into leaving my vintage guitars at home and buying some new one that I played at gigs. I bought my guitars because I thought they played and sounded better than new ones, not for some status symbol or collector's item to sit in a glass case. I bought my guitars to PLAY them.

 

Actually this thread brings to mind when I first bought my '52 Les Paul. I'd been searching around for YEARS trying to find one that I could afford. I'd check the Recycler, a paper in L.A. that lists free classifieds, every week as soon as it came out. If there was a vintage gold top in there at all, chances were high that it was out of my price range. But if it wasn't, I'd be the first one to call. But what always seemed to happen was that somebody would call and offer the person more money by the time I could get over to them.

 

I was getting really frustrated with this game. But finally one day I called about this '52, and I explained to the guy on the phone my predicament, asking him PLEASE not to accept more money, and help out a poor kid who wanted a vintage Les Paul so badly.

 

The guy had of course already received more offers for more money than I could afford. But he said, "What are you going to do with it?"

 

The question boggled. "What do you mean? I'm going to PLAY it of course!"

 

"You're not going to hang it on a wall in a glass case?"

 

"NO!" I answered, horrified.

 

"You're not going to take the pickups out and put humbuckers in it?"

 

Now I was even more horrified. "WHAT? Why would anybody do that? If I wanted humbuckers, I'd get a 60's model for less money! I want to play this guitar, and I'm not going to resell it either. If you let me have it at the price you listed, they can bury me with it."

 

"Okay," the guy said. "It's yours."

 

It's nice to know there are at least a few people left in the world who care about their guitars going to a good home, more so than a little more money.

 

--Lee

[Tedster]

That's touching enough to make into a movie..."sniff...sob" A girl, her loyal dog, and her guitar! Good thing there are those who recognize that a player needs a guitar to go along with it.

 

I had a '63 Firebird III. I fell in love with it 'cause my hero, Johnny Winter, played one (he played a IV, though). But after a while, the pickups weren't hot enough for what I wanted to do. So I (short on cash at the time) found a good home for it rather than bastardizing it. The Paul was my next axe. Yeah, it was a newer model, and one of the hated Norlins at that, but it was my guitar. And then some dickweed stole it. I'd have another Paul in a second. But, then, there's a gas bill, electric bill etc., not to mention my oldest son is off to college next year.

 

And while we're at it, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but it's been the story of my life. Fighting to get equipment, while less-inclined people with rich indulgent means have it all. Example, guy with good job or rich parents, who's been playing about a month, or shows, well, how do I put it kindly, very little aptitude, is constantly coming over showing you his new toys ("Hey check out my new PRS and Marshall stack...I even just learned a G chord!"), while you've been playing your soul out for 30 years on rattletrap equipment held together with duct tape...scrounging through trash dumpsters to find an only marginally used set of strings for your fifth hand Teisco Del Ray (all you can afford)...

[Guest]

Gosh... I guess it's too bad we live in a capitalist economy, hmmm? A truly "caring" society would see to it that talented and deserving musicians would get the really good instruments... ya think? Maybe you can do what happens often with old violins in the classical world - find a "sponsor" who owns a good instrument but lets you play it.

 

I own a 59 Les Paul Jr. I've had this guitar for almost 25 years,it was my first good guitar, bought it from the original purchaser, paid 50$ for it. it's my favorite guitar, but I can live with leaving it home and enjoying it there. I have newer, cheaper guitars that sound great to play in the real world.

 

And I would probably qualify as one of those low talent guys (despite playing for 25 years)who buy the cool toys. I have the skills and talent to excel in other areas, that pay very well. If I want to buy cool toys, I feel no guilt or remorse about "depriving" some deserving but poor musician.

 

drfuzz

[Tedster]

Well, Dr. Fuzz, I'm not trying to be the guy who determines who gets what. The fact that you're posting on this board shows that you have a lot of passion for playing. I'm no plethora (pantheon?) of technical ferocity or fortitude, either. Passion is what I was getting at, and a lot of folks buy cool toys and stick 'em under their bed. I know of a nice old Tele and Les Paul Custom I'd love to have, but they're under the bed of some guy who maybe takes 'em out once a year, piddles for a couple of minutes, and puts 'em away again. He won't sell 'em 'cause he "might play 'em someday". Okay. I don't really have a Teisco, I've got some decent stuff.

 

Kinda like someone having some vintage car, and he's more into golf.

[Lee Flier]

Geez drfuzz, that was a strange post. Ted gets a bit peeved about something and you interpret that to mean that he's slamming capitalism, would advocate that the wealth of vintage guitars be "redistributed" and that you should personally feel guilty for owning a vintage guitar that you don't play real often. Hmmm, think there's some issues there. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Fact is, in spite of the fact that I do own a bunch of nice vintage guitars myself, it does piss me off too Ted when somebody with a bunch of money and little passion flaunts their vintage guitars in front of somebody who's played their ass off all their life and can't afford one. I do not advocate taking said guitars away from said rich folks and giving them to Ted. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif It's just a personal opinion: it makes me mad. If you wanna think that makes me a Communist, go right ahead, but that's kinda sad. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

It's funny, nowadays some people who've only known me a short time might even think I AM one of those people. After all I'm now a computer programmer so they figure I MUST be rich, and anyway how else could I afford all those vintage guitars? Little do they know I bought all of them in the early to mid 80's when they were only starting to get, but had not yet gotten, completely out of whack in the price department. At that time I was a total starving musician making about 10K a year, and through very diligent digging around I was able to find bargains on my guitars - a guy whose friend left it to him in his will and had no idea what it was worth, etc.

 

Nowadays, I think such deals may still be possible but extremely few and far between. Everybody seems to be able to find out through the Internet or whatever, exactly what a guitar is worth. And nearly everybody would rather sell a guitar for the highest dollar than think about the passionate kid or aging road warrior who could never afford it and give it to them or sell it to them at a greatly reduced price.

 

Again I don't advocate anybody forcing people to do this; I just think it's sad that it doesn't occur to most people or give them pleasure, to help somebody else out who deserves it.

 

--Lee

[Guest]

This is one of the sad things about the Internet - there is no symbol for "tongue firmly planted in cheek". Perhaps I should restrain my (admittedly warped) sense of humor http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I'll admit part of my attitude about owning expensive guitars stems from the fact that when they get too high, I'd rather build one of my own. Last one was a very nice archtop - I could never talk myself into spending 3500$+ to buy one, but 300$ in parts and a couple of years, that I can do. May not be quite as nice as a Benedetto, but it sure sounds good.

 

Don't know why you think I feel guilty over owning an old guitar, though....

[Guest]

To get back to the original post, I have a 60's reissue Strat that I love to death. I've had many people ask me if it was vintage because it sounds so good. Not saying all reissues are this way, maybe I just got lucky. But, the best sounding rig in my area to my ears is a guy who owns all vintage stuff. Can't recall exact years but he has a 50's something Strat, plays through a 50's something bassman amp and uses a 50's something Fender reverb unit, uses all vintage pedals etc.... Yeah, it's noisy, but I'd take his rig anyday over mine. Man, talk about TONE. But, as you were pointing out, atleast this rig is in very capable hands that actually PLAYS the guitar instead of encasing it in glass. That has always burned me too, another thing I hate to see is all these people onstage just destroying a good guitar. Why not give it to some aspiring musician in the audience instead?? I know this is not quite as exciting, but a much better use as far as I'm concerned.

 

[This message has been edited by Stratamatic@aol.com (edited 11-25-2000).]

[John Worthington]

To Lee's story about the Les Paul...

 

I have a friend who loves the locking tuners on his Parker. He's managed to put them on all of his guitars. He bought a '69 Les Paul and took it in to his repair guy, who's also one of his best friends. Told him he wanted to replace the tuners with locking ones. The repair guy said "are you f&*$@#$ nuts?" and wouldn't give the guitar back to him.

 

When my friend called me up to cry I responded the same way. It took him 3 weeks to convince the repair guy that he had seen the error of his ways before he got the guitar back.

 

The moral of the story is that friends don't let friends chop vintage guitars.

 

jw

[Tedster]

Hilarious scenario:

 

Guy to dealer: "Hey, I just bought a '59 Paul at a garage sale, guy had it under a bed for 40 years. It needs a new set of strings".

 

Dealer: "No way, man".

 

Guy: "Whaddya mean?"

 

Dealer: "Those strings, are they original?"

 

Guy: "Well, they were on there when I bought it, they're frickin' green and rusty, forgodsake!"

 

Dealer: "You don't wanna change those, man"

 

Guy: "AGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH" (strangles the dealer)...

 

Disclaimer: The above scenario is just generated for the purpose of general silliness, and in no way reflects on anyone's opinion of vintage instruments. I could just see it as a comedy sketch, that's all...

[Lee Flier]

LOL Ted... yeah people can get a bit over the top about preserving the "original" state of vintage gear. And I'm fine with that so long as the guitar is playable. Again, the goal as far as I'm concerned is to PLAY the guitar, not hang it on a wall. So if there is something in the "original" hardware or whatever that is rendering it unplayable, IMO you ought to fix it.

 

For example the Les Paul was originally made with a trapeze tailpiece which is pretty much unplayable, and in fact Les Paul himself couldn't figure out why Gibson did this because HE certainly didn't specify it. They cause the guitar to go out of tune all the time, and by the end of '54 a stop tailpiece became standard. So, when I got my '52 the first thing I did was replace the damn trapeze tailpiece with a stop, and if any vintage purists wanna get on my case about it they're welcome to, but I don't think replacing things like knobs, tuners and tailpieces really affects the character of the guitar negatively, whereas they certainly have the potential to affect it positively.

 

I do hate vintage guitars that have been refinished (although my Telecaster was refinished when I bought it, else it would have cost me a lot more money, so whatever...), that have had their pickups replaced, had radically different frets put on or had the fretboard sanded down a whole lot. Those are the kinds of things that really change the guitar and start to take away from the vintage character.

 

--Lee

[Tedster]

Speaking of which, I hate what I used to call "The Gibson Splits"...finish cracks found in many old guitars due to temperature changes...I don't believe I've ever seen that on a Fender. Fenders just bang up and discolor...

[tonemonkeyyahoo.com]

While my personal tast runs to vintage tones and gear, I personally prefer newer "boutique" stuff to true vintage gear. There's a few reasons:

 

#1) Reliability. I've just never bought a 30 year old amp that I ever felt like I could really trust the way I can a brand spankin' new handwired amp like a Top Hat, Victoria, Clark, etc.

 

#2) I think some of the boutique guys have actually improved upon the vintage stuff. I recently built a pine nocaster with parts from several suppliers. I had a local luthier finish it off and assemble it for me. I'm into it for about $950 - slightly less than a new Fender '52 RI Tele (very nice guitars in their own right). However, I got some things on it that I couldn't have gotten on the Fender (flatter fretboard radius, compensated saddles, pearloid pickguard, Fralin PUs). It plays and sounds amazing. It's everything I'd hoped it would be.

 

#3) Cost. I own a Fender '57 RI strat. I gets me 90% of the way there (vintage land) for 1/3 for the money or less. I didn't even feel bad replacing the stock Fender PUs for a handwired-by-Seymour-himself Duncan Antiquity IIs. Again, plays and sounds great. No lust whatsoever for a true vintage strat.

[Tedster]

Well spoken...Tonemonkey...

 

I too, think that improvements have been made in things, but, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

I remember playing a buddy of mine's '57 Les Paul Jr. The thing had a neck like a telephone pole. Vintage or not, for me, that wouldn't have worked...

[alphajerk]

i gotta admit, i dont like playing vintage guitars AT ALL. price totally aside, ive yet to hold one that i liked the feel of and not want to totally customize [so i would rather not use them and let you all use them, people who actually appreciate the qualities].

 

IMO the best guitar made wasnt conceived until the late 70's[?] and that is PRS guitars. those are truly the ONLY stock guitar that requires NO mods. EVERY other company out there, im taking off the tuners and putting locking ones on, changing out the pickups to my flavor, rewiring the pots sometimes, etc.

 

my favorite guitar is my warmoth body/neck that i specified [and yanked the PRS style] all the configs [24 fret, shaved heel, quilt maple top, mahogony body, archtop, tom bridge/stop tailpiece (trems are evil) dual humbuckers, dual concentric pots, three way toggle, chrome pickup mounting plates(!)] i stained and laquered it myself and LOVE IT [it's my baby]! then i assembled and set it up myself.

 

although i do love to record guys [and gals] who can really play some vintage equipment.

[Guest]

As the wise old man said, "It's all in the hands."

[toneev1.net]

I think this all started at a houston guitar show there was a guy there who had an olympic white strat for sale at 4500 bucks

the dealers at the time were all laughing at the guy saying you will never see that kind of cash for that guitar. Well a japanese guy walked up and bought it at 4500 and all the smiles quickly drained off the faces of the collecters and dealers. I watched prices change right there dealers literaly took off tags and started raising prices. Custom color

strats went through the roof after that.

I decided after seeing many great players

who loved custom color strats but could never afford them, to build them myself

I too was scrounging for great playing guitars but could not swing the huge price.

I have played so many vintage strats that are 10,000 and they dont stay in tune they choke out when you bend ect ect buzz like a cheap speaker all the quirks we dont want to deal with. I decided to gather my facts and do it myself. I build custom color strat and

teles in every vintage color acrylic and nitrocellulose lacquers my strats start at

1200 and up for complete guitars.

My bodies which are one piece bodies

are 3 lbs and cost 300-450 each.

I did this to make guitars that stay in tune

look and feel great and most of all have the tones I wanted!! Yes I love old strats and teles yes if i hit the lotto id have a giant collection. But meanwhile ill build my own that stay in tune and sound like what i want. What really gripes me is our history

of fine instruments such as fender and gibsons have been bought up by the japanese

the great history of guitars that were made here in the USA are sitting in a japanese collecters fetish room. No offense to the japenese just it saddens me to see our history bought out from under us.

I think esp is the largest collecter now of

vintage instruments from last i heard they had several of each year from 54 on up.

They are in tokyo i believe now.

I see tables full of guitars not for sale but bought up and taken apart put into bags as parts shipped to japan and then reassembled as whole guitars this is to avoid customs and taxes those guitars go back to japan and triple in price.

I could just die right here for knowing that.

Oh well live and learn... I wathched a japenese fellow walk up to a 59 les paul

that had a sign on it that said not for sale

he asked the guy how much the guy said i guess you cant read its not for sale

the japanese guy pulled out a crown royal bag full of hundred dollar bills and started dropping dead presidents on his table

well at 13 grand the guy was polishing the guitar and puttting in a case for him.

he walked away with a 59flametop for 13 grand you cant even touch one for under 40grand now and even historics bring 5000

who can afford that not many of the players I know can swing that kind of coin for a paul or car or house payment Im sure you all know great players really great players who deserve to own great guitars that cant afford that. That buggs me to no end so I learned how to build them myself.

If anyone out there needs a great player

or needs a custom color body or a neck built

to specs please call me www.freyguitars.com

Ill work with you to make that guitar you want at an affordable price...

[farrantaaol.com]

I agree with Alpha, I can't get along with pre-CBS strats or some of the other supposed vintage stuff that people clamour after, however, I do like the sound of vintage gear. Some of the tones from Peter Green, Paul Kossof and their generation of players set the hairs on the back of my neck bristling.

 

My solution is to have a modern rig (BoogiTriaxis / 290 / 4x12s and an Ibanez Petrucci Signature 90th) and a "reissue" vintage rig.

 

I use a Jimmy Page Les Paul through one of the white reissue Marshall Half Stacks - I a/b'd a lot of true vintage Marshalls and much preffered the sound of the reissue, it is somehow richer and more responsive and ACTUALLY sounds more like my interpretation of "vintage". Yes it is a luxury and I appreciate some people are not so lucky but I work very hard and deserve the toys I work for.

 

As for the prices of vintage gear, I think they are ludicrously high but it's a commercial world and the laws of supply and demand come into play. It does cheese me off though that there must be a thousand really talented kids out there who could be world class players who can't get hold of decent kit.

 

Just my 2 cents worth !!!!

[Guest]

All those vintage guitars I sadly, unfortunately, stupidly let go. When they sold for $350-$600 in the 80s, Les Pauls, Strats, an Explorer, a couple of outstanding Arias, and others. Except for the Arias, the others would sell for $1000-$2000 (going by current prices and comparable condition). Instead, I wish I had all those guitars back (except one, an early 70s LP Deluxe that had been butchered). I do remember a Guitar Player article of a round table discussion with several representatives from many of the current guitar manufacturers, PRS, Fender, Gibson, PV, and others, and each one noted that they made guitars to be played. If I remember right, Paul Reed Smith said he was more honored when he would see one of his guitars with "character marks"(my words), dings, scratches, etc., because he made guitars to be played, and it was obvious they were being played. The others agreed. Museum pieces are nice. But, an instrument is meant to be played. What would Stradivarius think of his violins simply being displayed in a class case, when they were meant to bring joy, not to the eyes, but to the ears? A '52 Les Paul, I would not take on the road, because of irreplacability, but in the studio, on a special occasion, yes. The road guitar would be the best reissue I could find. The prices ARE getting ridiculous and the instruments need to be played.

[stanner]

i gotta '63 strat that i have been playing into the ground since i got it in '80 for $1200 @ a pawn shop here in sf-it has the most beautiful sound i've ever heard(plugged in or not)

[lrbreez]

I really like the reissue Fenders and Gibsons (but noe the prices). I also like the reissue Marshalls and Fender amps. In the 7Os I use to try out about 15-2O Fenders and Gibsons before I found a decent one. Now I can try about 3 or 4 and find one I like. It was easier around '92-'94 to find good ones.

Buddy

[art]

I love the "vintage thang". I don't own any vintage guitars but I have friends that do and I've played them. Some have been okay, others have been amazing. It all depends on what you as an individual, would like to feel and hear. If I owned a good vintage guitar, I would play it out. I played my friend's '59 strat thru my Deluxe Reverb at a jam session. Man, it sounded so sweet. He plays it out regularly. I have a friend who owns a '59 Les Paul with a one piece top (he claims that it's the guitar on the cover of the book Gibson Guitars - The Classic Years). He never plays it. In fact, he doesn't even play out anymore. If I had that guitar, I'd play it out. It felt and sounded fantastic and it was light as a feather. There's just something about that aged wood and old magnets in the pickups and the dried glue and finish....

So the question remains - do I want a vintage guitar? Heck yeah! Would I be willing to pay the prices that collectors demand? When I can afford it, yes.