What would you do to stimulate the economy?

[PBBPaul]

So if we can accept a few economic basics as fact: 1.People like to buy things. 2.People need money to buy things. 3.People with a lot of money buy more things than people with very little money. 4.When people buy things it creates a demand for more things. 5.The demand for things that people buy is fulfilled by suppliers who, in turn, create demand for people and things to create the things they fulfill. With me on that? 6.When demand exceeds supply, prices rise and the value (i.e. income) of the people who produce things rises. 7.When supply exceeds demand; prices fall, we have an economic recession and the value of people who produce things falls. 8.When we have a recession, people who like to buy things have less money to buy them and consequently, buy fewer things. 9.The US economy is a huge, lumbering beast with all the responsiveness of an aircraft carrier. The global economy is even worse. 10.There is such a thing as a twenty-year boom/bust cycle in our economy that resembles an analog wave form. So given the above, what would you do to stimulate the economy? A.Raise taxes to create more social programs for the people affected by #7 above? B.Raise taxes so the government can buy the things that people can’t afford thereby creating artificial demand? C.Lower taxes to put more cash into the hands of those that buy things? D.Give up, recognize that it’s part of the 20-year cycle and leave it for the next administration to deal with? E.Dismiss basic economic tenets as fantasy and blame the last administration for leaving you with an impossible mess. While I may be joking a bit, I am really curious about serious ideas you may have for stimulating the current economy. No, I’m not George Bush, Alan Greenspan, or Al Gore in disguise.

[Sylver]

I've always found that if you take your thumb and forefinger and apply slight rythmic pressure to the ... Er, oh, economic stimulus? I say forget about it, realizing that you can't really affect it with any predicatability. Take solace in the fact that if you live in the US and are scraping by, you are better off than 90% of the planet.

[patrick_dont_fret]

I think I'd go with option F.: Move to Canada, where everything is all good, all the time....

[Valkyrie Sound]

Annouce that we're NOT going to war. Valky

[Nawledge]

Take all the money that we're spending on the military campaign and give it to the people instead of the tax break, that way the public could get the injection of funds it needs, the public would spend more, create more jobs, and still pay taxes, which the government could use to get education and healthcare programs where they need to be. which is the opposite of lacking.

[Dan South]

(1) Spend less money cruising around the world pissing people off by getting into their business, grabbing their resources, and dictating policies that favor American business. (2) Spend a portion of the money saved in Step 1 on domestic security so that people don't have to be afraid to hop a plane to Vegas. (3) Put award caps on lawsuits that cripple legitimate businesses with ludicrous claims. Examples: medical malpractice, product liability, hot coffee lawsuits. (4) Set up a reasonable health care system so that EVERY working family can get health insurance without bankrupting them OR their employers. Get rid of the part time loophole so people aren't asked to stop working after thirty hours a week in an attempt to rob them of health coverage. (4a) Addendum to number four: Part of the health care system would lower premiums for people who take care of themselves - work out, eat a healthful diet, etc. Fast food restaurants should be required to contribute to a health care fund unless they can demonstrate that the majority of their sales come from healthful foods. (5) Extend fair trade agreements to companies who take security and financial stability seriously. Abandon direct foreign investment in countries that pose a security threat. Money talks; bullshit walks. (6) Balance the damned budget and pay off the national debt. (7) Implement a mandatory sentence of public service for anyone who defaults on a loan of files bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, including credit card balances. The length of the term would be tied to the amount defaulted. (8) Enact mandatory jail sentences for executives of any firm found guilty of misleading investors (including financial services firms). Follow up with community service. (9) Invest heavily in the development of renewable fuel sources. Pick reasonable dates for phasing out fossil fuels (10% renewable, 25% renewable, etc.). (10) Legalize narcotics. Move DEA officers to the NIS, Coast Guard, and border guard. Treat narcotics as a medical problem. (11) Revise the tax code so that individuals and businesses pay the same way - either on gross sales or on gross income. Having multi-billion dollar corporations pay on net income while impoverished families pay on gross income is ridiculously unfair. (12) Criminalize telemarketing, direct mail, and email spam. Fine companies who break the rules. Force companies to develop marketable products and to market them via legitimate means instead of clogging up the internet, the mail system, and the telephone network with attempts to bilk customers into buying shoddy merchandise. (13) Jail any public or private official who okays the use of retirement funds or Social Security/MediCare funds for any use other than their intended use. (14) Implement personal social security accounts, so the the money you pay in comes back to YOU, not to someone else. (15) Limit tax incentives strictly to those that support real growth - research spending, tuition, etc.

[Rick K.]

Actually, going to war will stimulate our economy. It always has. Sad, aint it?? Rick

[Valkyrie Sound]

[quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [b]Actually, going to war will stimulate our economy. It always has. Sad, aint it?? Rick[/b][/quote]While you're right about MOST wars... many say that this "different" kind of war is going to hurt the economy more than help it... and not just because of oil. Valky

[Jotown]

I would get Ken Lay, and all of the Enron Executives, as well as all of the executives at Global Crossings, and the other large comapanies that filed bankruptcy and looted the funds while the employees lost their retirement. I would pass a law that would take every nickel they have and return it to the employees, and shareholders. I would have them all placed in stocks on the capital steps so that everyone who wanted to could give them a swift kick in the ass. And then toss them all in prison. I would pass sweeping zero tolerance laws about insider trading, deceptive accounting and stock manipulation. Until people believe that the Enron type financial crimes cannot happen again the Stockmarket will languish. People have lost confidence in the market, and the leadership of this country. P.S. Add all of those crooked accounting firms to my list of culprits.

[Gtoledo3]

[quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [b]Actually, going to war will stimulate our economy. It always has. Sad, aint it?? Rick[/b][/quote]You know, how many wars have we been through where we can observe this effect. Less than a handful? Given that, it's hardly logical to conclude that "going to war will stimulate our economy". And really, even when considering wars of the last 100 years, one can't say that they have had an across the board positive effect on our economy. Sometimes people just come up with sayings that aren't really true, but make for an easily digestable soundbite.

[D_dup3]

I'd buy a polititian. :thu:

[deanmass]

Legalize pot AND hemp. Tax it.

[Monkey Mouse]

I would do a few things: First, I would penalize any company that lays off people for no reason (a good reason would be a compnay about to go under - like K-Mart). The money would be used to subsidize government programs such as grants on education (state colleges & continuing education). This would keep a lot of companies from laying epople off becuase they "feel like it". Second, I would lock up every single senator & representaive in Washington. They passed budgets like everything was rosy, meanwhile the bets got called and they left most every state in debt (billions of $). While we're at it, throw each state's elected reperentatives in jail too. And kill evey official who voted on California's laws that produced that DUMB DUMB DUMB utility fiasco a few years ago. It may not stimulate the economy, but no one will ever do something stupid like they did for a long while. Third, the government should do something similar to what FDR did in the 30's - public projects that pay people to build infrastructure and public works. I'm not saying we should build bridges & roads for no reason, but the local governments are certainly not doing squat-especially in the snow belt where the roads were destroyed in december and we have 2 more months of winter. That's about it in terms of what I would do if I ran the show.

[whitefang]

I'm not sure what I WOULD do, but I wouldn't try pretending the creation of thousands of minimum wage jobs would do the trick! And then refuse to RAISE said minimum wage! Whitefang

[zele]

One Phrase would bring back the economy!!! DEBITORS' PRISON----Us Colonists need to re-instate the laws for violators.....Think how fast the Debt would drop>>>>> What about that so-called friend you loaned money to~~~~~with a legal document---they would come with every nickel they owed; on the date due or "send me a card from Sing-Sing!" People would not extend themselves beyond their means. Many people I have encountered, in Europe especially, would never think of purchasing anything that would inccur debt...it would be frowned upon by family and friends, you would "lose face"====But here in California,at least ,,individuals will lease a very expensive car--morgage a home for 1/2 million and colleagues will encourage the debtor---keeping up with the Jones.... bring back debtors prison

[patrick_dont_fret]

[quote]Originally posted by deanmass: [b]Legalize pot AND hemp. Tax it.[/b][/quote]Sho nuff, except for the tax part...taxes suck.

[Dogfur]

#1) Serious campaign finance reform. Get the money out, and all the problems disappear! #2) Term limits - once your done with your public service (I think 2 years should do it) you return to private life, perhaps with some kind of limited pension. #3) Immediate overhaul of government accounting - Funding for a given dept. is simply halted upon discovery of mis-management. Start with the Dept. of Defense, and find a couple trillion. That should pump up the economy! Bottom line - capitalism works, but needs to be regulated. If greed is no longer acceptable in society, and offenders who "cross the line" are held accountable by standards within their own community our economic problems would be much less severe.

[midispaceho]

Two words...Bake sale.

[Dylan]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b](12) Criminalize telemarketing, direct mail, and email spam.[/b][/quote]Finally, someone who loathes telemarketing as much as I do. IMO, it's an invasion of privacy and a abuse of a public service that I PAY for. What if family was unable to get a hold of me in an emergency because a telemarketer was tying up the line? E-mail spam is a huge problem that I don't think is going to go away any time soon. They estimate that the average person wastes an hour of their work day sorting through SPAM. What a waste...

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by zele: [b]One Phrase would bring back the economy!!! DEBITORS' PRISON----Us Colonists need to re-instate the laws for violators.....Think how fast the Debt would drop>>>>> bring back debtors prison[/b][/quote]The only problem with that would be that our entire government, from the prez down, would be in prison for running up outrageous debt, with our money.

[Dylan]

Yeah. It sucks when you have so many damn crimes- just about everybody is a criminal if you think about it.

[GZsound]

Some pretty good ideas. I have a sure fire method of saving over 300 Billion dollars a year. However, it is too simple for most folks to understand. Eliminate all taxes. State, Federal, city, county, individual, marriage, death, corporate, whatever. Close the IRS. Create a 10% value added tax to everything except food, prescription drugs and medical supplies. Set a limit to income below which you get food stamps, welfare, whatever government handout you may need. Now you are getting money from anybody that spends it. The rich drug dealer who operates in an all cash world, the rich corporate guys, everybody who hides money now will suddenly pay their fair share. Want a $75,000 Porsche? Send the government $7,500. Everybody pays. Another simple idea to save our economy. Give everybody every dime they earn. If you make $5,000 a month, you get the entire five grand. Then every month you get a statement from every entity that wants a piece of you. You have to write a check to social security, FUTA, FICA, etc. every single month. The tax revolt in this country would be huge. Third and final plan. Make frivilous lawsuits punishable by jail terms for the attorney. Make looser pays the law of the land. Place limits on the number of attorneys that can be granted licenses to practice law. We are now graduating more attorneys than any other single discipline. Watch health care get affordable, drug costs drop, product liability costs drop, and on and on. The cost to the American public caused by these parasites is astronomical. By the way, a lot of you don't know but Mr. Bush just saved something like 300 million dollars in drug costs for seniors (actually for all of us) with just a signature. He reduced the amount of time before a drug patent expires thus making generics available much faster and much cheaper. But hey, it probably didn't make the NPR news.

[Jotown]

GZsound wrote: [quote]By the way, a lot of you don't know but Mr. Bush just saved something like 300 million dollars in drug costs for seniors (actually for all of us) with just a signature. He reduced the amount of time before a drug patent expires thus making generics available much faster and much cheaper. But hey, it probably didn't make the NPR news.[/quote]You must be talking about the GROUNDBREAKING SCHUMER -MCCAIN GENERIC DRUG BILL. Yeah, I heard about it on PBS. Let me see....SCHUMER...isn't he one of those damn liberals democrats? And the other guy....Isn't that the guy that should have run for president for the republicans, and recently called Dubyah a liar? Most people say he votes like an independant. I surely would have voted for him; had he ran. The democrat led senate pushed that bill forward in July by a vote of 78 to 21. It took a little more than just "Bush's signature" to make that bill happen. 78 senators who voted for it to be exact. Out of the 21 no votes how many do you think were republican senators? And do you think that bill would have a chance of getting to Duyah's desk with the current make up of the senate? Read all about it here. http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01124.html

[midispaceho]

Maybe just a really big national yard sale.

[PBBPaul]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b](1) Spend less money cruising around the world pissing people off by getting into their business, grabbing their resources, and dictating policies that favor American business.[/b] I can't say that I disagree too much here except that we are becoming more of a global economy every day. This makes culture clashes all the more of an issue to be dealt with. [b](2) Spend a portion of the money saved in Step 1 on domestic security so that people don't have to be afraid to hop a plane to Vegas.[/b] Damned good idea. But at what cost? How invasive should we get? [b](3) Put award caps on lawsuits that cripple legitimate businesses with ludicrous claims. Examples: medical malpractice, product liability, hot coffee lawsuits.[/b] Absolutely agree. I was on a Jury in one of these cases once. What a joke! [b](4) Set up a reasonable health care system so that EVERY working family can get health insurance without bankrupting them OR their employers. Get rid of the part time loophole so people aren't asked to stop working after thirty hours a week in an attempt to rob them of health coverage.[/b] Accomplishing #3 will help bring the cost of health care down dramatically. And a side benefit: lawyers will stop getting so fat. [b](4a) Addendum to number four: Part of the health care system would lower premiums for people who take care of themselves - work out, eat a healthful diet, etc. Fast food restaurants should be required to contribute to a health care fund unless they can demonstrate that the majority of their sales come from healthful foods.[/b] I agree with the lower premiums for people who take care of their health. This would provide incentive for better health which would, in turn, further lower health care costs by removing many abusers from the system. I disagree with the fast food proposal. People should be free to make their own choices about what they eat. Nutritional labeling requirements might not be a bad idea but where do you stop? Will my favorite French restaurant have to make disclosures about their menu? How about Steak houses? Sushi? They are all restaurants. [b](5) Extend fair trade agreements to companies who take security and financial stability seriously. Abandon direct foreign investment in countries that pose a security threat. Money talks; bullshit walks.[/b] What kind of fair trade agreement? I agree of course that security and financial stability are a good thing but business is inherently risky. If you remove the incentive to take risks, you lose the entrepreneurial spirit and innovation that makes an economy grow. Let's face it, 90% of startups fail simply because it is such a huge risk but if it wasn't for the remaining 10% that succeed, we wouldn't have any of the technology that we enjoy today. [b](6) Balance the damned budget and pay off the national debt.[/b] This could be argued both ways. It goes against my personal grain, but I had it presented to me once that running a deficit is actually much healthier for the economy than running a surplus. [b](7) Implement a mandatory sentence of public service for anyone who defaults on a loan of files bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, including credit card balances. The length of the term would be tied to the amount defaulted.[/b] Bankrupcy, like divorce, is way too damned easy. I agree with you here. Somebody else mentioned debtor's prison (actually I believe it was "Debitors" prison - Can't I use my debit card anymore?). That may be a bit severe but fraud, bad checks, bankrupcy etc... are basically a lack of personal responsibility that should be heavily penalized. Bad checks alone are a huge issue that costs us billions. [b](8) Enact mandatory jail sentences for executives of any firm found guilty of misleading investors (including financial services firms). Follow up with community service.[/b] Fraud is fraud and should be prosecuted as such. [b](9) Invest heavily in the development of renewable fuel sources. Pick reasonable dates for phasing out fossil fuels (10% renewable, 25% renewable, etc.).[/b] Yep. [b](10) Legalize narcotics. Move DEA officers to the NIS, Coast Guard, and border guard. Treat narcotics as a medical problem.[/b] I'm on the fence here. Drugs are too seductive and dangerous to be legalized. But the violent crime associated with their illegal status is a huge problem. [b](11) Revise the tax code so that individuals and businesses pay the same way - either on gross sales or on gross income. Having multi-billion dollar corporations pay on net income while impoverished families pay on gross income is ridiculously unfair.[/b] The whole tax code is unfair and ridiculously complex as well. Flat tax, no loopholes - personal and corporate. But this would cause a huge recession in the accounting industry. [b](12) Criminalize telemarketing, direct mail, and email spam. Fine companies who break the rules. Force companies to develop marketable products and to market them via legitimate means instead of clogging up the internet, the mail system, and the telephone network with attempts to bilk customers into buying shoddy merchandise.[/b] This is a tough one too. In Wisconsin, we have a new 'no-call' list for telemarketing companies. Companies face substantial fines for calling anyone on that list. Spam: I absolutely detest it. But of the 1000's of spams I get, I have gotten something of value out at least 1 or 2. Without direct mail, I would never have learned about Musicians Friend. It is unfortunately a viable marketing method and without marketing we wouldn't learn about and buy new "things" thereby stimulating the economy. [b](13) Jail any public or private official who okays the use of retirement funds or Social Security/MediCare funds for any use other than their intended use.[/b] Unless it's a national emergency, no argument here. [b](14) Implement personal social security accounts, so the the money you pay in comes back to YOU, not to someone else.[/b] Do you also support privatizing part of the system? Giving individuals some control over how their account is invested? I believe that at least part of Social Security should be invested into the domestic market. [b](15) Limit tax incentives strictly to those that support real growth - research spending, tuition, etc.[/b][/quote]Any tax loopholes or incentives should be rigorously tested to ensure that they are indeed for the growth of the individual or nation. Good post, Dan, thanks.

[PBBPaul]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]GZsound wrote: [quote]By the way, a lot of you don't know but Mr. Bush just saved something like 300 million dollars in drug costs for seniors (actually for all of us) with just a signature. He reduced the amount of time before a drug patent expires thus making generics available much faster and much cheaper. But hey, it probably didn't make the NPR news.[/quote]You must be talking about the GROUNDBREAKING SCHUMER -MCCAIN GENERIC DRUG BILL. Yeah, I heard about it on PBS. [/b][/quote]This is a touchy issue too with interesting potential precedent ramifications. Drug companies spend billions on R&D to bring new drugs to market. They recoup the investment by charging high (one might even say ridiculous) prices for the end product. By shortening the length of the patent we allow generic manufacturers to 'steal' the idea sooner, cutting into the ability of the developer to recoup the investment. Will this then cause even higher drug prices but for a shorter term? Should we apply the same method to other intellectual property? Software? Music? The Disney rat?

[Dan South]

GZsound - I like your ideas!! PBBPaul - Thanks for the thoughtful responses!! :thu: We're just musicians. Why can't our elected officials come up with policies like these? ... What's that? These ideas don't support institutionalized greed? Oh, I understand now. Thanks.

[Monkey Mouse]

[b]Create a 10% value added tax to everything except food, prescription drugs and medical supplies. Now you are getting money from anybody that spends it. The rich drug dealer who operates in an all cash world, the rich corporate guys, everybody who hides money now will suddenly pay their fair share. Want a $75,000 Porsche? Send the government $7,500. Everybody pays.[/b] We have that already - its called sales tax, its collected by states and some cities. [b]Another simple idea to save our economy. Give everybody every dime they earn. If you make $5,000 a month, you get the entire five grand. Then every month you get a statement from every entity that wants a piece of you. You have to write a check to social security, FUTA, FICA, etc. every single month. The tax revolt in this country would be huge.[/b] Damn good idea. Would be a little rough if your salary goes up & down - would make for large corrections at year's end. [b]Third and final plan. Make frivilous lawsuits punishable by jail terms for the attorney. Make looser pays the law of the land. Place limits on the number of attorneys that can be granted licenses to practice law. We are now graduating more attorneys than any other single discipline. Watch health care get affordable, drug costs drop, product liability costs drop, and on and on. The cost to the American public caused by these parasites is astronomical.[/b] Absolutely wonderful idea. For the real blatant cases of attorneys abusing this, we should have executions (my extra 2 cents).

[AlanThomas]

[quote]Originally posted by zele: [b]One Phrase would bring back the economy!!! DEBITORS' PRISON----Us Colonists need to re-instate the laws for violators.....Think how fast the Debt would drop>>>>> What about that so-called friend you loaned money to~~~~~with a legal document---they would come with every nickel they owed; on the date due or "send me a card from Sing-Sing!" People would not extend themselves beyond their means. Many people I have encountered, in Europe especially, would never think of purchasing anything that would inccur debt...it would be frowned upon by family and friends, you would "lose face"====But here in California,at least ,,individuals will lease a very expensive car--morgage a home for 1/2 million and colleagues will encourage the debtor---keeping up with the Jones.... bring back debtors prison[/b][/quote]And where would the money come from to build and operate these prisons? Many states have had to release dangerous criminals before their sentences were up because they could not afford to build and/or run new facilities to relieve over crowding in the current facilities. And how would sending someone to prison help the debtee? And don't give me any crap about the debtor "working it off" in prison. If someone owed so much money that they were being imprisoned, the $3.00 a month they could earn in prison would basically mean a life sentence for most debtors. What are really needed are more specific, stringent guidelines as to who is granted credit and under what circumstances. For example, a recent local newspaper article told the story of a woman who was laid off of her job packing truck parts after 25 years. The story stated that her monthly rent was $300, and that she had a [b][i]car payment[/b][/i] of over $400. If anyone should be sent to prison, it is the loan officer that approved the financing for the vehicle for this woman. As ignorant as she may have been to agree to take on such a financial burden, it is the overwhelming greed of so many financial institutions and the scum bags that run them that is the problem. And as for your assertion that European people are [i]so[/i] much less in debt: poppycock and balderdash! The fact is that as a whole, Europe's economy is [i]far[/i] worse off than ours and there is [i]much[/i] less money available to be loaned. I know plenty of Europeans that live in this country and many of them had car loans and mortgages before they had a fricken green card. Saving face my ass!

[CarmenC]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com: [b]Some pretty good ideas. I have a sure fire method of saving over 300 Billion dollars a year. However, it is too simple for most folks to understand. Eliminate all taxes. State, Federal, city, county, individual, marriage, death, corporate, whatever. Close the IRS. Create a 10% value added tax to everything except food, prescription drugs and medical supplies. Set a limit to income below which you get food stamps, welfare, whatever government handout you may need. Now you are getting money from anybody that spends it. The rich drug dealer who operates in an all cash world, the rich corporate guys, everybody who hides money now will suddenly pay their fair share. Want a $75,000 Porsche? Send the government $7,500. Everybody pays. Another simple idea to save our economy. Give everybody every dime they earn. If you make $5,000 a month, you get the entire five grand. Then every month you get a statement from every entity that wants a piece of you. You have to write a check to social security, FUTA, FICA, etc. every single month. The tax revolt in this country would be huge. Third and final plan. Make frivilous lawsuits punishable by jail terms for the attorney. Make looser pays the law of the land. Place limits on the number of attorneys that can be granted licenses to practice law. We are now graduating more attorneys than any other single discipline. Watch health care get affordable, drug costs drop, product liability costs drop, and on and on. The cost to the American public caused by these parasites is astronomical. By the way, a lot of you don't know but Mr. Bush just saved something like 300 million dollars in drug costs for seniors (actually for all of us) with just a signature. He reduced the amount of time before a drug patent expires thus making generics available much faster and much cheaper. But hey, it probably didn't make the NPR news.[/b][/quote]Excellent! :wave: