Anyone else into 5.1 music (DVD-A, DTS, SACD)?

[Dave Bryce]

As some of you may know, I'm big time into the 5.1 thing. I have a fairly nice sounding system, and own somewhere around 200 DVDs.

 

A few years ago, I started collecting older albums remixed in 5.1 in DTS - Toy Matinee, Days of Future Passed, Band on the Run, etc.

 

Then Brain Salad Surgery came out on DVD-A, and so I kinda had to I started collecting those. I didn't spring for the dedicated player that does the hi-res DVD-A, I was just content playing the compressed Dolby Digital/DTS mixes off of those.

 

A few weeks back, Dark Side of the Moon came out, but the 5.1 remix is only available in SACD format. It being my birthday a few weeks back, I treated myself to an SACD player (John Gatski from PAR has been bugging me to do this for a while anyway). It actually didn't cost that much - $199 for the player, and it plays all the other formats too (except still no hi-res DVD-A...I still can't justify that expense). Luckily, my receiver was compatible, so integrating the new player was as easy as connecting ten (!) cables (six for the SACD, L/R audio to the CD inputs for normal CDs, optical for Dolby Digital/DTS, and S-VHS for the picture).

 

Wow. Freakin' SACD is awesome. While I really enjoy the other two formats, the SACD stuff sounds beyond belief. Besides DSOTM, I've gotten Toto IV, The Stranger, Blow by Blow, Head Hunters, Kind of Blue, and a few others. I'm blown away. SACD also offers stereo versions of a lot of older albums, and I did get a few of those too (Boston, Ghost in the Machine) - also very cool, but the surround stuff is much, much cooler.

 

I still haven't gotten a disc that was recorded in the DSD format (can anyone suggest one?), so I'm still waitng to hear the full advantage of SACD. I'm way psyched...

 

I know Synthetic is into these...anyone else been bitten by this bug?

 

dB

[bleen]

I'm waiting to jump headfirst into DVD-A/SACD stuff until I get a surround rig I don't mind sitting in front of for a couple of hours (ahem..ADAM... ), but I did purchase Eleanor McEvoy\'s YOLA, a stereo SACD, last year. Just to be ready with something...

 

The regular 16-bit CD layer is stunning. This was an all analog recording, but mastered on SADiE; from her site:

 

Mick O'Gorman sound designer to Riverdance explains, "In order to make the recording of YOLA capable of taking full advantage of the superior audio quality of SACD we created an audio concept for the album. " We listened to recordings on SACD and somehow found them fuller, clearer and with better dynamic range. We set out to make a completely analogue multi-track recording using 24 track 2 inch (Otari MTR 90) via a analogue console (including a vintage Neve Melbourne). We recorded everything live including the vocals (only overdubbing when a player was doubling another voice or instrument), where possible there was no compression or limiting of the dynamic range.

 

We mixed the album (at Metropolis London) to analogue 1/2 inch. First we assembled a CD in the digital domain in SADIE (CD mastering device) putting the tracks in order, matching track levels fades etc with master craftsman Ian Cooper (using PMC monitors). Later we somehow managed to talk our way onto SACD (because there was a SONOMA SACD mastering machine in Metropolis one day when we were in recording) We went back to the 1/2 inch analogue mixes and using the same mastering EQ tweaks went onto SONOMA where we reassembled the album copying the levels etc of the original CD.

 

By the way the CD layer on the SACD was made from the 16 bit PCM outputs of the SONOMA not from the SADIE and we think it sounds better.

Do you like Elliot Scheiner's remix of the Toy Matinee DVD-A? The original is one of my favorite CD's ever, and I've heard the DVD-A lost some of the immediacy and punch of Bill Bottrell's mix.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by bleen:

Do you like Elliot Scheiner's remix of the Toy Matinee DVD-A? The original is one of my favorite CD's ever, and I've heard the DVD-A lost some of the immediacy and punch of Bill Bottrell's mix.

That's my favorite of all of the DTS remixes I have. I think Scheiner's mix is unbelievable - it's really cool how the record stands the test of time. Last Plane Out, Queen of Misery and The Ballad of Jenny Ledge are the best mixes, IMO.

 

dB

[RABid]

Where are you finding your audio DVD's? (As in, online.)

 

Robert

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Rabid:

Where are you finding your audio DVD's? (As in, online.)

Here you go...

 

dB

[RaGe]

Dave,

Michel Camilo's latest offering Triangulo, has been recorded "in DSD". It sounds quite good to my ears but I just have the 2 channel version.

 

I like Billy Joel's "The Stranger" SACD, what a great way to rediscover an album I thought I knew.

Kind Of Blue is a real treat too!

 

Other than that I can only applaud labels for releasing more 5.1 versions.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by RaGe:

Michel Camilo's latest offering Triangulo, has been recorded "in DSD". It sounds quite good to my ears but I just have the 2 channel version.

Cool! I'm on it. Did they do a multi-channel version too, or just the stereo one?

 

That's actually a bit weird to me that they do that - there's two different SACDs of Blow By Blow - one is stereo, and one is multi-track. I'd figure that they'd just put both mixes on the same disc...I dunno, maybe the data is too dense to fit...

 

The Pyramix guys gave me a pre-release of a DSD live recording they did of Chick Corea and Bobby McFerrin done during Chick's 60th birthday gigs at the Blue Note in Fall 2001. The copy they gave me isn't SACD - it's just a plain ol' 16-bit/44.1 CD, but it sounds excellent - definitely one of the best recordings of a piano I've ever heard. I can't wait for the SACD release.

 

I like Billy Joel's "The Stranger" SACD, what a great way to rediscover an album I thought I knew.

Fully agreed. I think Phil Ramone's remix is nothing short of breathtaking.

 

dB

[tenthplanet]

I've got one music dvd-a so far, (movies don't count), I got "Magnification" by Yes. It sounds very good in 5.1 and would sound better in higher

resolution. When it comes time to replace the DVD player I get one with DVD-A capabilty. Toshiba has machines under $300.00 that are DVD-A capable.

Michael

[RaGe]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by RaGe:

Michel Camilo's latest offering Triangulo, has been recorded "in DSD". It sounds quite good to my ears but I just have the 2 channel version.

Cool! I'm on it. Did they do a multi-channel version too, or just the stereo one?

 

Actually, they released a 6-ch version the week after i bought the 2-ch ...

 

The Pyramix guys gave me a pre-release of a DSD live recording they did of Chick Corea and Bobby McFerrin done during Chick's 60th birthday gigs at the Blue Note in Fall 2001. The copy they gave me isn't SACD - it's just a plain ol' 16-bit/44.1 CD, but it sounds beyond belief - definitely one of the best recordings of a piano I've ever heard. I can't wait for the SACD release.

 

I can't wait to listen to that one too, knowing how much of a sound purist Corea is.

 

And I just ordered:

Los Angeles Guitar Quartet: Latin

The Film Music of Jerry Goldsmith

Orff: Carmina Burana

Jason Miles: Celebrating the Music of Weather Report

Ray Brown/John Clayton/Christian McBride: Superbass 2

Doc Powell: 97th & Colombus

 

All from Telarc. Reviews coming soon.

[doug osborne]

My new Pioneer DV45a has been working overtime the last week.

 

new titles:

 

Mary Chapin Carpenter - Time*Sex*Love

stunning SACD multichannel, props to George Massenberg, et al

 

Bela Fleck - Bluegrass Sessions DVD-A stunning acoustic sound (both formats can and do sound great)

 

Doors LA Woman DVD-A I had a few quibbles with the surround mix, but the sound is great, props to Bruce Botnick for tracking everything so well, especially the drums, and making it work in 5.1 all these years later (Morrison's voice squarely in the center channel)

 

Yes - Fragile DVD-A The highlight is Chris Squire's bass hard in the center channel (with lead vocals phantom between right and left). Heart of the Sunrise is my favorite track

 

I have ordered the Toy Matinee DVD-A. It might be on my doorstep as I write this.

 

4 or 5 more unwrapped disks await me...

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

Yes - Fragile DVD-A The highlight is Chris Squire's bass hard in the center channel (with lead vocals phantom between right and left). Heart of the Sunrise is my favorite track

...and mine as well, with that silly little Rick Wakeman piece "Cans and Brahms" right behind it (as far as the mix goes, anyway ).

 

The piano in the back speakers on Heart of the Sunrise is so cool, isn't it?

 

The remix of the bonus track "America" is pretty great, too...I'd forgotten what an awesome cover they did of that.

 

You'll way dig Toy Matinee, Doug.

 

dB

[synthetic]

Back to Stereo!

 

I haven't gotten into surround music, too gimmicky for me. I haven't heard a surround mix that brings me further into the music, it takes me out by distracting me with tricks. The one exception is a 5.1 chorale recording I heard, I'll bet classical music sounds amazing in 5.1. But I still don't have a system that can play SACD in surround, so maybe it's just sour grapes.

 

I love the "Zanzibar" trumpet solo from Billy Joel's 52nd Street, that's my favorite SACD demo so far. The Police's Regatta de Blanc is also outstanding, and Aerosmith's Oh Yeah is also cool. Some of the discs come in stereo and multichannel because the stereo discs came first and retailers still haven't sold through their stereo stock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all multichannel SACD also has the stereo track. But It's tough to tell which version you're buying from Amazon.com or whatever.

[Odyssian]

I have a DVD-Audio and an SACD disc player. I'm a sucker for listening to music in surround. That's quite a statement coming someone like me too, since I was a bit of an audio purist in my younger days. Now, I love hearing a great surround disc.

 

My pet peeve is the material that they have choosen so far to release. Not to slight the music, but I strongly believe that they are shooting themselves in the foot by releasing some of the titles they have been. Here's hoping for more discs that can really show what the medium can do. (Yes-Relayer anyone? )

 

I have to say I was a little less than thrilled with the Fragile DVD-A. They added a lot of (WAY too much, IMO) reverb on some of the vocals and the heavily harmonized/detune effect on the guitar in "America" spoiled that track for me too. Cans and Brahms was incredible to listen to though. No distortion on the piano, and the low synth note (you know which one! ) was pretty neat. There were other high points on the disc of course, I'm just whining. heh... I did play this disc for my brother (without giving my opinion of it) and he was disappointed in the same things I was. As long as they delayed this DVD-A, I feel they should have done a MUCH better job.

 

One of my favorite discs is the ELP Brain Salad DVD-A. Listening to this disc gave me the same excitement as I had when I first heard it. I love their choice of panning and surround placement.

 

Oh yeah, I just got through listening to my Tomita Planets DVD-A. It's a Japan only import and is pretty cool with the exception of some newly added parts. I admit that there are not that many new parts added, but I would much rather have not had these parts added. It's very distracting at times.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

Here's hoping for more discs that can really show what the medium can do. (Yes-Relayer anyone? )

I want Close to the Edge. I want an old Genesis album. Almost any of 'em. In an ideal world, it'd be The Lamb, but that ain't gonna happen.

 

Cans and Brahms was incredible to listen to though. No distortion on the piano, and the low synth note (you know which one! ) was pretty neat.

Yep.

 

One of my favorite discs is the ELP Brain Salad DVD-A. Listening to this disc gave me the same excitement as I had when I first heard it. I love their choice of panning and surround placement.

Yep again. That's probably my favorite DVD-A. Even Still - You Turn Me On sounds good.

 

Oh yeah, I just got through listening to my Tomita Planets DVD-A. It's a Japan only import and is pretty cool with the exception of some newly added parts. I admit that there are not that many new parts added, but I would much rather have not had these parts added. It's very distracting at times.

Ahh - I didn't know this was available - I love that recording! Got a link, my brother?

 

dB

[Odyssian]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I want Close to the Edge. I want an old Genesis album. Almost any of 'em. In an ideal world, it'd be The Lamb, but that ain't gonna happen.

I would love to see any of those titles on DVD-Audio. I agree though, I don't think we'll be seeing them any time soon.

 

I wrote: Oh yeah, I just got through listening to my Tomita Planets DVD-A.

 

Dave writes: Ahh - I didn't know this was available - I love that recording! Got a link, my brother?

You bet!

 

Tomita Planet\'s DVD-A at Amazon.com Japan

 

The bummer is that you have to go through this webpage (it's in Japanese) to order the disc. It's a little hairy to sign up and order it, but it is possible. I also ordered the Tomita NHK DVD-A from them, which is a collection of various works. I doubt if either of these discs will ever be available in the US.

 

Good luck, let me know if I can be of any help in ordering.

[Odyssian]

Here\'s the Tomita NHK DVD-A

[Odyssian]

Here's a webpage to translate the two Japanese amazon.jp webpages above to English:

 

JP to En webpage translator

 

Once this webpage loads, there will be a window to where you can paste the Amazon.jp Tomita webpage addresses. Once you enter the address and hit return, there will be an intermediate page that comes up. Hold tight for awhile, and the translated page will load in about 10 seconds. There are some things that don't get translated, but it's better than nothing..

[Dave Bryce]

Cool! I'll give it a shot. Worse comes to worse, I've got friends who can translate.

 

Thanks, Odyssian!

 

dB

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by synthetic:

Back to Stereo!

 

I haven't gotten into surround music, too gimmicky for me. I haven't heard a surround mix that brings me further into the music, it takes me out by distracting me with tricks. The one exception is a 5.1 chorale recording I heard, I'll bet classical music sounds amazing in 5.1. But I still don't have a system that can play SACD in surround, so maybe it's just sour grapes.

 

I love the "Zanzibar" trumpet solo from Billy Joel's 52nd Street, that's my favorite SACD demo so far. The Police's Regatta de Blanc is also outstanding, and Aerosmith's Oh Yeah is also cool. Some of the discs come in stereo and multichannel because the stereo discs came first and retailers still haven't sold through their stereo stock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all multichannel SACD also has the stereo track. But It's tough to tell which version you're buying from Amazon.com or whatever.

The argument would be that every sound we here is in a space with some imprint of its own, and 5.1 is a much better format to deliver that sense of space over 2 channel. There are as many crappy stereo mixes as there are gimmicky surround mixes. If you want to go Back to Mono, 5.1 is also the best way to do that, since it can present a full-range mono track properly, without the downside of phantom stereo.

 

Amazon as well as brick 'n mortar retailers have no clue how to market this stuff, and I'm afraid that between them and the consumer electronics manufacturers, this ship will take a lot longer to sail than it should.

[JimmieWannaB]

I've got a whole new case of gear lust. Until I read this thread, I hadn't given much thought to 5.1 sound outside of that on DVD movies. Given that I loved quad back in the 70s and was bummed that it died over the format wars, you'd think I'd have jumped on 5.1 sooner.

 

Do I buy my daughter the 20 gig iPod for her grad gift or go with the 5 gig and use the savings on an SACD deck? Decisions, decisions.

[Botch.]

I haven't heard it, but I noticed yesterday that Blue Man Group's first CD, Audio, is now available in 5.1. If you haven't heard this CD, and you like percussion, this'll be a good one I bet.

[Steve Smith]

Synthetic, I was firmly in the same court, and then actually listened to some stuff over at Wireworld in nashville that had been recorded in surround from the ground up, wow. The sense of space is amazing. And now i read that there is a surround version of Time Sex Love by our own George.. I feel the need to justify a new format purchase coming on...

[Dogfur]

I've been on a pretty strict Sony boycott since my minidisc episode, but do you think SACD is worth cutting them some slack? $200 doesn't seem too bad...

 

Props to Donald Fagan's "The Nightfly" which I thought was pretty cool, revealing alot of stuff I hadn't heard before in the original stereo mix of this masterpiece.

 

"Fragile" is very cool (another vote for "Heart Of The Sunrise" as MVP), but I too wish for "Close To The Edge".

 

The Bela Fleck Acoustic sessions disc is phenominal, but I had to adjust the subwoofer down ASAP. No other selections have made me run for the sub...

 

ELP's "Brain Salad Surgery" perked me up quite a bit, I love the adventurous panning stuff.

 

I've been enjoying The Grateful Dead "American Beauty", but being a Deadhead is a pretty forgiving hobby. Mickey Hart did a good job with the remixes, though.

 

All I can think of off the top of my head...

 

Cheers,

 

Dogfur

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Dogfur:

I've been on a pretty strict Sony boycott since my minidisc episode, but do you think SACD is worth cutting them some slack? $200 doesn't seem too bad...

Or spend a little more and get the Pioneer DV45a (the least expensive SACD MC/DVD-A combo), so you won't have to get stuck with the Sony Borg.

...

The Bela Fleck Acoustic sessions disc is phenominal, but I had to adjust the subwoofer down ASAP. No other selections have made me run for the sub...

Anything from Bela Fleck has huuuuge bass, so no surprise that they pushed the LFE in this one.

...

 

I've been enjoying The Grateful Dead "American Beauty", but being a Deadhead is a pretty forgiving hobby. Mickey Hart did a good job with the remixes, though.

...

Do the Dead surround mixes seem to have a little more reverb (plate or whatever) than the originals? Or is that space just in my head...

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

SACD also offers stereo versions of a lot of older albums, and I did get a few of those too (Boston, Ghost in the Machine) - also very cool, but the surround stuff is much, much cooler.

So, I just got the remastered stereo versions of the first and third Peter Gabriel records.

 

Wow. Totally awesome.

 

I synced up the 16 bit/44.1 version of Gabriel I with the SACD version. There's quite a difference. Much more depth and detail.

 

Now I've gotta get the other remastered Gabriel albums, too...grumble grumble...

 

dB

[Tim Casey]

Hi! I'm glad I found you guys! This is my first posting, so I hope I don't get chewed out for espousing the wrong opinions!

 

I've been mixing my own stuff in 5.1 surround using Digital Performer and pressing it in compressed dolby digital using A-Pack (as found in DVD Studio Pro). I have to admit, I'm hooked.

 

I bought "Fragile" as well as Bjork's "Vespertine" and Neil Young's "Harvest". My greatest thrill was hearing the tracks from "Harvest" which were recorded live in that converted barn with the musicians in a circle. They did a GREAT mix - since all the mics bleed into each other and they placed the tracks in the same setup as the original setting, you really feel like you're in the middle of a practice room - the effect is stunning. The other songs which were overdubbed in a regualr LA studio sound okay, but I prefer the old stereo versions. All in all, though , the CD (DVD-A, actually) sounds great.

 

Being hooked up to keyboard magazine, I noticed everyone here is REALLY into Yes and Genesis, etc. I really liked "Roundabout" (especially the surround intro), but the rest of the album isn't as enjoyable for me as it was when I was a kid. I'm afraid they were more into impressing themselves and other musicians than writing great tunes. Even "Roundabout" seems to have too much extraneous noodling. (Keep in mind, this is coming from a pop/rock composer, not a keyboard virtuoso - I can see why an instrumentalist would get into them more than the average person).

 

What I think is deja-vu about this surround-sound mixing is the way it parallels the introduction of stereo mixing in the sixties - particularly with the Beatles' catalog. Their stereo mixes, up until the White Album, were generally deplorable. I cut them some slack, though, because they simply didn't know how to handle it. On the new DVD release of the Anthology, Paul and George even take pot shots at the stereo mixes with some anecdotes about parties where Ringo's new drum track would be in the kitchen because the guy throwing the party put the two speakers in two different rooms (I still hear that in some retail outlets when they play these tracks on their PA systems).

 

I've been going on too long here. Sorry. I'd have to say that right now, I think surround is the way to go from here on in, but that it will sound funny when used on an older re-release. And I really have no problem with 16 bit 44.1k CDs that are mastered correctly (like the old DCC gold discs by Steve Hoffman), so the higher resolution doesn't float my boat.

 

Thanks for tuning in!

[BP3]

Just picked up Gabriel's first and last on SACD. The newest Gabriel is a good bit o' fun in surround.

 

Now, if they'd only do "The Lamb" on SACD.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by TinderArts:

Just picked up Gabriel's first and last on SACD.

I have 1 and 3 on SACD. They're pretty great, but I really wish they were in surround...

 

Now, if they'd only do "The Lamb" on SACD.

Yeah. right...

 

Didja get the 5.1 DVD-A of Pet Sounds yet? It does NOT suck...

 

dB

[billjv]

Hi all,

 

I absolutely LOVE 5.1 audio. I have Queen's "A Night at the Opera" & Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, both of which are good, although both take some getting used to after knowing the stereo mix soooo well.

 

I also just picked up Peter Gabriel's Secret World Live DVD. I gotta say, I was somewhat disappointed with the 5.1 mix on it - it is just too different from the original. In fact, I swear they used some different vocal takes on the DVD than they did on the original. It's okay, but I think it could have been better.

 

I want an SACD player! Dave, what/where/how did you get one for $199??? Hellova price!

 

bv

[BP3]

Originally posted by billjv:

Hi all,

 

I absolutely LOVE 5.1 audio. I have Queen's "A Night at the Opera" & Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, both of which are good, although both take some getting used to after knowing the stereo mix soooo well.

 

I also just picked up Peter Gabriel's Secret World Live DVD. I gotta say, I was somewhat disappointed with the 5.1 mix on it - it is just too different from the original. In fact, I swear they used some different vocal takes on the DVD than they did on the original. It's okay, but I think it could have been better.

 

I want an SACD player! Dave, what/where/how did you get one for $199??? Hellova price!

 

bv

I'll confirm that the vocals were overdubbed for the DVD. Peter tends to be very sensitive about his vocal performances. I personally like the rougher (original) takes to the ODed ones.