piano technique question

[EZB]

I had about 8 years of pretty good classical instruction when I was young, and for the most part feel like I know the right exercises that work for me in building finger strength, independence, etc.

 

But I need some help where my wrist action is concerned. When it comes to stuff like fast octaves in the right hand going up scales, I make the rookie error of tightening up and using my entire arm, which limits my speed and efficiency, and often makes me end up playing out of time.

 

The problem is, I really don't know where to start in fixing it (aside from hiring a teacher, of course, which I can't afford). None of the common exercise books I know of address this.

 

And the other usual approach to solving piano technique problems--slowing things way down, getting it right, and building up muscle memory--isn't working for me either because I really don't even know what I'm trying to do. I try keeping my wrist loose, and have tried holding my arm in a variety of positions while I slowly bounce on the same chord over and over, but I'm not sure when I actually have it right.

 

Anybody out there have ideas?

[marino]

Keeping your wrist loose is a good idea, but playing fast octaves from the wrist alone can only give you a thin, semi-staccato sound. (Well, it also depends on the size and shape of your hands, of course)

My advice: Try to play from the shoulders, but without any tightening up of the arms. I mean, most of the energy comes from the arm weight. There's a little directionality from the forearm muscles, but in general, the more they're relaxed, the better. The problem is to recycle this relaxation in beetween notes. You can practice this with the "stop and go" system. Start with your hand in a "normal", relaxed position on the keyboard, maybe raising your wrists just a little more than usual. Instead of playing an entire scale or fast passage, play just the initial three or four notes, at the right speed and dynamic level. Stop on your target note, and relax. Continue with the next 3 or 4 notes, always concentrating with keeping your entire arms and torso flexible, and ready to support the hand. Always relax on the last note of every group for a rather long time. After doing that for a while, you can play more notes at a time, like 5 or 6, then even more, till you play the entire scale or passage. Never play more notes than you can manage without tightening up. Slowly, your arm will learn to recycle its relaxation in the very small time/space beetween notes. You can also practice this a bit slower, but slowing it down too much makes it less useful.

 

Hope this helps, and also hope my English is readable!

 

Carlo

[Laurie Z.]

EZ- think of your arms as a complete mechanism supporting the hands and wrists - almost like a lever. If you tighten up, you'll lose the strength and power - but if you let the power and momentum come from the complete mechanism (supported by great posture and strength from the rest of the body), and just let the fingers move independently supported by the strength of the body, that should help you.

 

I had a teacher many many years ago who corrected my wrist technique by placing a glass of water on my wrist and said - "OK, now play without spilling the water". My technique is excellent now - but boy did I think she was nuts!

 

Also - Hanon and Czerny are the best, IMHO, for developing your finger independence and speed (along with Bach Inventions). :-)

 

Good luck!

 

lz

[realtrance]

Here's another tip I remember now after doing some fast scales, from my piano lessons years ago:

 

1. Decide on the best fingering for you for that particular scale, passage, and stick to it and practice it so that it feels natural, and inevitable. There are recommended fingerings for all the scales, I don't know whether they're in a book or not but you can probably figure them out on your own if not.

 

2. Get a real feel for which notes in that scale or passage you want to emphasize. The problem with any fingering is that at the point where you're doing, say, a thumb under or finger over, going up or down, there's the tendency to emphasize the note while you use the extra muscles and wrist motion to get the finger(s) in place. Practice anticipating those switch-over moments so that you're not tensing up when you get to them or do them, so that you can flow naturally up and down the passage and make the note-emphasis choices _yours_ instead of your muscles'.

 

3. Finally, decide, musically, where in the passage you want emphasis, on which notes. Then the remaining practice is to make sure, first, that you're playing the notes leading up to and away from those emphasized notes _evenly_, or, if you're doing syncopation, that the syncopation is under your control. You'll find once you're at this point that having a clear idea of and then making decisive choices about note emphasis will provide you the "armature," if you will, for the passage, so that you can make it move the way you want it to move.

 

rt

[EZB]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Marino--good suggestions. I started your approach yesterday, and will hit it 5 minutes a day as a part of my warmup. Sounds like a promising method. lz--good tips as well. The glass of water on the wrist is wild; was Pat Morita your teacher??? ("wax on, wax off")

 

realtrance--I might not have asked my question well. I'll clarify it in case others read this and weigh in. My overall practice regimen, which consists of beaucoups scales, Hanon, Rachmaninoff stretching exercises, and some more obscure exercises, is working for me. I'm asking a really specific question here about how to practice passages where finger movement is secondary to wrist movement. I gave the example of fast octaves up a scale (e.g., Michel Camilo); the same challenge exists when playing a single chord (let's say C-major) in quick repetition.

 

This is frequently a requirement in latin music, but it's not unknown to classical. I'm working on the third movement of the Appassionata right now, where there are several instances of playing the same chord twice in quick repetition (16th notes at around quarternote=144 bpm). Doing that in time at tempo without tightening up is what vexes me.

[realtrance]

Ah! Sorry, yes -- I understand the challenge now. Whole different kettle o' fish. The advice from others is already all you'd need on this (from the shoulder, etc.). Feeling the weight of your _fingers_ "falling," rather than "pushing" them with wrist or shoulder, is another way of thinking about it -- the tensing up you describe actually reduces the momentum of the fingers onto the notes. It's almost like shaking a guiro real fast, but again without very much wrist motion.

 

The Appassionata's tough! Maybe also try practicing some of Chopin's Ballades while you're at it. Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies are also great for spring training. Bartok Suite Opus 14 is good for practicing a lot of the more percussive technique.

 

rt

[marino]

Originally posted by EZB:

Marino--good suggestions. I started your approach yesterday, and will hit it 5 minutes a day as a part of my warmup. Sounds like a promising method.

Hi, ezb - maybe I'm starting to sound pedantic, but I rather wouldn't do those exercises at the *beginning* of a practice session. They are made to push your limit a little bit every time, so I would wait till my hands are already warm and ready for action. Just a thought...

 

Carlo

[Tusker]

Interesting and very cool. Marino, is this the technique you would use for practicing rapid fire chords (like the 16th note tongued notes of a brass section)? Or something different?

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

[marino]

Originally posted by Tusker:

Interesting and very cool. Marino, is this the technique you would use for practicing rapid fire chords (like the 16th note tongued notes of a brass section)? Or something different?

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

Well, it depends. If those chords are relatively static in register, it doesn't need to come from the shoulders as much. And if they're played on a non-weighted keyboard, everything changes... A simpler, finger-plus-wrist movement would be the most appropriate IMO. The "Stop and go" method is useful for a bunch of different things, especially in those things that are phisically difficult, as rapid octaves or very fast passages.

 

Let me also say that all hands are of course different, and giving advice without *seeing* anything is rather a shoot in the dark. I gave it a go in ezb's case because he said that taking lessons was out of question, and he was asking about a very specific situation. In case of synths, the variables grow in an exponential manner. Different sounds, keybeds, dynamic curves, touch programming...

[EZB]

marino--point taken on being warmed up before trying your suggestions. I'll work it in later in the practice regimen. Also understand that all of your advice is based on your general wisdom, without the benefit of understanding our individual playing characteristics.

 

There's a short piece by Ginastera (one of his American Preludes, I think) that uses fast, rhythmically regular octaves in both hands for the entire piece. I'm thinking it may be a good "etude" for your approach, so I'm going to give it a shot.

 

It's interesting to hear your thoughts on fast-repeating chords where fingering is fairly static. Given that I get the same feeling of tight wrists as I do with fast octaves, I was hoping to address the challenges in parallel. However, it sounds like your recommendations for repeating chords (player tendancies and keyboard action notwithsetanding) are slightly different. More for me to think about.

[Superbobus]

I like what I see here. I'm using this arm/upper body/gravity thing a lot and boy, did it improve my sound and looseness. Note that when you play these octaves for instance to the right your whole arm will move to the right and eventually, if your playing is definitely more at the right side, your whole upper body will move there. It's like the whole upper body is loose, the pelvis is at rest and the backbone is in one straight line. I admit, it doesn't look as spectacular as Keith Jarrett but it works for me. See what you can do with it.