Shopping for a Beast

[Blues Disciple]

OK Guys, I need a little advice. I am getting ready to go down the long road to buy a Hammond and I have some questions:

 

1. What's the advantage, disadvantages and differences between buying an M3 vs. a C3 vs. an A-100 vs. an RT-3 vs. the almighty B-3? Does the M3 have the same octave range between both manuals as the B-3 has on each one?

 

2. What are some things I should take care to look for when buying a Hammond tone wheel organ?

 

3. What should I check on, do, play, etc. when trying one out?

 

4. What are some questions I need to ask the seller?

 

5. What in the world was the L-series of Hammonds? Are they similar to the M3line?

 

6. Is the percussion component of the Hammond absolutely necessary or can models such as the M2, C2, etc. suffice for blues and rock music? Can you add percussion to these instruments?

 

7. Years ago I played a BV---any impressions on this thing? It had a great, but weird vibrato/chorus thing on it too.

 

8. Is one year model Hammond better than another year (as with vintage guitars) or is any year just as good as the next?

 

9. Or would it be better to just forget about finding a Hammond and just go for a clone such as the CX-3, etc.?

 

10. Any other hints, opinions, or information you B-3 guys have for me?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

BD

[coyote]

1. B3,C3,A100,RT3 are all the same organ but in different casings. RT3 has 32 pedals (the others have 25) and A100 has built-in speakers. A100 is the lightest & smallest of them - much easier to move up/down stairs, around corners, etc. M3 has the same guts as B3 though I don't remember if it has the same range.

 

2,3. Make sure it's in good overall shape, and that it sounds good to your ears. Check each key w/ each drawbar to make sure they're all working; check vibrato & percussion. The vibrato/chorus should be smooth, not too squirrely.

 

4. Ask him when he last oiled it, and with what oil. If it's other than Hammond oil, be wary. It's better to have not oiled in awhile than to use the wrong oil.

 

5. The Ls were a spinet series. Tonewheels, but limited in scope. If you get one cheap they can be fun to play with.

 

6.Percussion is nice but not absolutely neccessary - it can be 'faked' by using a drawbar setting of 777080000. There are aftermarket percussion units which can be addad to BV,CV,B2,C2 organs.

 

7. I had a CV for awhile - it had a killer sound! If the chorus/vibrato seemed weird it possibly needs a scanner cleaning. This is a time-consuming & detailed process but not terribly difficult.

 

8. If I didn't already own the A100 I'd seriously consider the Korg CX3. It comes very close to the Hammond/Leslie sound & feel IMO. If you don't own a van or truck, the Korg is the obvious choice.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Blues Disciple:

OK Guys, I need a little advice. I am getting ready to go down the long road to buy a Hammond and I have some questions:

Congrats!!!

1. What's the advantage, disadvantages and differences between buying an M3 vs. a C3 vs. an A-100 vs. an RT-3 vs. the almighty B-3? Does the M3 have the same octave range between both manuals as the B-3 has on each one?

They all have the same tone generator so they have the same bite & grit that the B has. The major difference is the M-3 has 2 shortened keyboards although the same range & the same waterfall style keys as the B series. I personally would rather have 1 full keyboard than 2 shortened ones. The rest is cabinet differences. The A-100 has built in speakers. The B, C, & RT were made to go with a Leslie or Tone Cabinet. They get heavier as per the alphabet. The B weighs about 450, the C weighs 50 lbs more, the RT is heavier again.

 

2. What are some things I should take care to look for when buying a Hammond tone wheel organ?

Just make sure everything works. Check all the drawbars, vibrato, & percussion switches. To get anything fixed can be expensive unless you are handy, very electronic & mechanical literate. It can be hard to find a good Hammond Tech. Make sure that every key fires & every tone that should be firing is. Each key has 9 little wires that are attached to it. After 30 years they can be broken off. Also dirt can get between the key contact & the bus. This does have an easy but dangerous fix.

 

4. What are some questions I need to ask the seller?

It's kind of like buying a used car. What's the history, where did you buy it, etc.

 

5. What in the world was the L-series of Hammonds? Are they similar to the M3line?

The L-series was the series that replaced the M-series. DON'T BUY ONE! The tone generator is not the same as the A, B, C, M, or RT series. It does not have the same sound, grit, etc. The keys are a synth style as well.

 

6. Is the percussion component of the Hammond absolutely necessary or can models such as the M2, C2, etc. suffice for blues and rock music? Can you add percussion to these instruments?

In my opinion, yes. It's the ping or pong you hear. Not to be confused with Key Click. You can use it & add a Trek II percussion kit after the fact. They are not that expensive. I seem to remeber they are less tha $300.

 

7. Years ago I played a BV---any impressions on this thing? It had a great, but weird vibrato/chorus thing on it too.

A BV is the predessor of the BC series. It's vibrato was not as developed as the A, B, C, M, & RT series. It had vibrato only, no chorus. Still good. I think you can get a kit to replace it. Maybe it sounded squirrely because of no Leslie.

 

8. Is one year model Hammond better than another year (as with vintage guitars) or is any year just as good as the next?

They say the earlier ones were but I don't necessarily believe it.

 

9. Or would it be better to just forget about finding a Hammond and just go for a clone such as the CX-3, etc.?

 

10. Any other hints, opinions, or information you B-3 guys have for me?

I had a Hammond XB-2. I was so sick of the sound, I almost chopped my B-3. I had everything lined up to do, money, people to do it, but the guy that was going to do the road cabinet chickened out so I bought my Hammond XK-2. No clone sounds as good as one, not even the new CX-3 or B4 although I think these 2 sound better than my XK-2. They sound too processed for my taste. A lot of people don't think that the tone wheel Hammonds are reliable, but I've found the opposite. I've had 2. Both of them always started. Same with the Leslie. I still have thoughts about chopping mine so I can take it to gigs!!!

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by b_3guy on 08-20-2001 at 09:30 AM

[DeeSquare]

Follow the good advice above. Definitely ask about the oil and take the time to check each key with each set of drawbars. Also, if you do end up buying an old Hammond make sure you lock down the tone generator before moving it. The biggest difference between the A100/B3/C3/RT3 organs is price. The RT3 or A100 will cost the least, next is the C3 and the B3 will fetch the most. You may want to try and find an organ that has spent most of its life in a living room as opposed to on the road or in a bar.

 

I agree with b_3guy. I had an XB-2 and got completely sick of it especially after I got the real thing (A100). I too am not very impressed with the latest clones. I like the size and weight but I can't stand the sound and feel.

 

In case you didn't already know about this site check out the following:

 

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/

[Guest]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Originally posted by Blues Disciple:

OK Guys, I need a little advice. I am getting ready to go down the long road to buy a Hammond and I have some questions:

Congrats!!!

1. What's the advantage, disadvantages and differences between buying an M3 vs. a C3 vs. an A-100 vs. an RT-3 vs. the almighty B-3? Does the M3 have the same octave range between both manuals as the B-3 has on each one?

They all have the same tone generator so they have the same bite & grit that the B has. The major difference is the M-3 has 2 shortened keyboards although the same range & the same waterfall style keys as the B series. I personally would rather have 1 full keyboard than 2 shortened ones. The rest is cabinet differences. The A-100 has built in speakers. The B, C, & RT were made to go with a Leslie or Tone Cabinet. They get heavier as per the alphabet. The B weighs about 450, the C weighs 50 lbs more, the RT is heavier again.

 

 

This message has been edited by b_3guy on 08-20-2001 at 09:30 AM

 

 

b_3guy, I don't believe it's accurate to say that the M3 has the same sound as the B3 (and other consoles). I owned an M3 (never made it to the B). I doesn't have quite the same balls. I think it has to do with foldback. I believe at least one of the drawbars, in certain octaves, foldsback while the B3 plays it normally. Also remember that the M3, while having the same vibrato unit, does not have the chorus. On the hammonds the vibrato is seldom used but the chorus is wonderful.

 

Busch

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by burningbusch@home.com:

b_3guy, I don't believe it's accurate to say that the M3 has the same sound as the B3 (and other consoles). I owned an M3 (never made it to the B). I doesn't have quite the same balls. I think it has to do with foldback. I believe at least one of the drawbars, in certain octaves, foldsback while the B3 plays it normally. Also remember that the M3, while having the same vibrato unit, does not have the chorus. On the hammonds the vibrato is seldom used but the chorus is wonderful.

 

Busch

 

I can't really remember the Vibrato/Chorus. I just remember playing one a few months back that the vibrato sounded the same or similar. But I think you're right on the harmonic foldback but if anything wouldn't this make it really scream because this means tones that are supposed to dropout or fold back wouldn't?? I just remember it sounded better than an L-100 or the dreaded Porta-B. It definitely has a tone wheel sound generator which is critical to balls, etc.

[coyote]

ALL the Hammonds mentioned so far in this thread have tonewheel generators.

 

Originally posted by b_3guy:

I just remember it sounded better than an L-100 or the dreaded Porta-B. It definitely has a tone wheel sound generator which is critical to balls, etc.

[Guest]

Maybe it's that some of the drawbars drop out. I read something about this on the web and it confirmed what my ears were saying. I'll try to track it down. I am positive that the M3 has the Hammond vibrato unit but not the chorus.

 

Busch

[Jeep]

Hey Blues Disciple,

 

These lads have all given you righteous info and advice. They all know their stuff inside-out and have got the chops to prove it.

There are thousands and thousands of people that own and swear by their Hammonds. They're built like tanks and sound like heaven (an acquired taste, to some). There's Hammond-related stuff all over the 'Net. It's fabulous to be able to communicate on this forum with some of the deadliest Hammond organists on the planet. We can split hairs 'till the cows come home, regarding the minutiae of the different models. Man, virtually every organ, synth or other electronic keyboard tries to get that Hammond sound, but ultimately, they fail to nail. And remember, a Hammond has TWO keyboards! I'm rambling here, so my advice to you is:

 

Go and buy yourself a B-3 or A-100 and a Leslie 122 or 147.

 

Get them properly hooked up to each other, if they're not already, and WAIL!!! You're an ambitious blues-keyboard aficionado, right? Don't settle for a wanna-B. Even (as if) you never take it out of your living/music space, you'll have the standard against which all else is measured. You've gotta have this rig in your all-too-short life. Astonish yourself and everybody else!

 

 

This message has been edited by Jeep on 08-21-2001 at 03:08 AM

[Guest]

I found some info on the web related to the M3, actually how you can modify it to provide foldback.

http://www.sympac.com.au/~retrojet/foldback.htm

 

If I read the documentation correctly (the PDF link at the bottom of the page), the high C on a spinet is missing the top five drawbars. On the consoles, these tones are folded back and would be audible.

 

Busch

[Jeep]

Right on, burningbush, you nailed it.

 

You described exactly what was missing from the sound of a stock M-3 when compared to a B-3. And now you've dug up a mod that will fulfill what was missing and make them identical. Ace.

 

There are 4 rocker switches on an M-3 pertaining to the vibrato:

 

Vibrato Lower Manual - Off/On

Vibrato Solo Manual - Off/On

Chorus Vibrato / Normal Vibrato

Amount of Vibrato - Small/Normal

[Stephen Fortner]

I'll acknowledge that nothing can match the sound of a console tonewheel Hammond going through a Leslie. That said, I'll suggest a compromise for live gigging: a clone going through a real Leslie! The organ component of my gig rig is handled by a Roland VK-7 which goes through a Trek II pedal preamp into a Leslie 142. The 142 and 145 are, respectively, short-cabinet versions of the 122 and 147. Electronically they're identical, the difference being that the physical box is 8 inches shorter. Marginally less bass response, but I've found that in a live situation they tend to ride comfortably on top of the bass guitar rather than stepping on it.

With casters installed on the bottom, a 142 or 145 is really quite manageable if you have a minivan, Ranger, or the like. I even got mine into the back of my sax player's Volvo 840 station wagon and still had room for my other two keyboards.

 

If you have to own the real thing, an A series is your best value. Many were pre-wired to work with the (unbalanced) leslie 145/147, as they hit the market later than the B's and C's, at a time when the Hammond company was no longer so recalcitrant about recognizing the Leslie speaker. Hammonds are like Strats, grand pianos, or Harleys, in the sense that no two are exactly alike. If you play something that sounds thin or choked to you, don't second-guess your ears on account of it being a B-3 or whatever. Pass on it.

 

An interesting note: the model BC did not use the scanner-based chorus system that we all know from the famous C3 chorus sound. It used an ancillary tonewheel bank, detuned to create a real time chorus effect. Instead of the six-position black knob, this has a drawbar you pull out to activate the chorus. Though different from the more recognized sound, it's incredibly fat and bitchin'.

 

Ok, Ok, so I've flagged myself as a Hammond geek. Time for bed...