Controller Keyboard

[Guest]

What would be a good controller keyboard? 88 note piano touch etc... What is the Fatar sl-880 like?

 

------------------

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by msis@sympatico.ca:

What would be a good controller keyboard? 88 note piano touch etc... What is the Fatar sl-880 like?

 

It depends on what your criteria are. You mentioned 88 notes, and piano-like touch. Is that your only criteria?

[Guest]

In fact, I need a keyboard to control my racks of modules...S-760, XV-5080 etc.,I don't want any sounds in it, I don't need them. Something full performance, mod/pitch wheels, aftertouch,velocity sensitive.I would like a Kurzweil or Yamaha or Roland but they all have sounds in them. A while back I had an old Ensoniq EPS ( quite a while back!)but what I liked about it were the 8 buttons under the screen that let me select 8 different instruments at the touch of a button, that was nice!

[musicman1ovation.net]

First, I have never seen any of these in the flesh, so I can't tell you what the keyboard action feels like, but *if*, amongst all your rack synths, etc., you have one that receives polyphonic aftertouch (a rare but wonderfully powerful MIDI control), the Oberheim MC2000 and MC3000 are apparently the ONLY MIDI keyboards on the market (controller or otherwise) that will SEND that information.

 

I've been hunting like crazy trying to find a keyboard synth or controller (weighted keys like you mentioned) that has that ability, and so far, having emailed various people that are experts, and having searched the web over several times, those Oberheim units are the ONLY possiblity! That sounds a little goofy that it would be that way, and if anyone has any information to the contrary, I would love to know about it.

 

There's a lot of confusion about the whole polyphonic aftertouch thing. I've heard several terms used to decribe it, and I've heard the SAME term used to describe very opposite things. What I'm referring to it this:

 

If you play and hold C triad (C,E,G), and then and pressure to the E key, with what I am referring to as polyphonic aftertouch, the E will get louder/brighter/vibrato (however the synth is programmed to react to polyphonic aftertouch, but the C and G will remain as they are. With virutally ALL other keyboards that have aftertouch, the increase of pressure is applied to all held keys. If you play that triad and add pressure to the E, the C & G will get the same increase in volume or brightness, etc. I'm not sure what the ACTUAL term is, because I've heard them used interchangeably... but it might be simply "aftertouch" or "mono pressure" or "channel pressure". The problem is that I've seen some official looking MIDI info on the web that has used the term "channel pressure" to describe polyphonic aftertouch as well. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif

 

Please note, however, that unless you have a MIDI device that can recognize this information, it won't matter anyway. Still, just reading about the Oberheim features sounds pretty beefy. It would be great if someone out there has actually played on it. If so, I sure wish they'd compare the feel of the weighted action to that provided by people like Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Kurzweil, Fatar (controllers), etc. That would at least give me an idea... and anyone else who might be interested.

 

Good luck to you on your pursuit! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Jose Cobelas]

I am more or less in the same quest, and I was thinking about starting a thread here asking about the Oberheim MC3000, too.

 

I only have seen the specs and it looks very interesting. It comes with 8 midi outs, 2 ins and 2 thrus, with its own mouse (and a mousepad on top) for editing.

 

Any users there of this, or the MC2000??

 

JoseC.

[Dave Bryce]

I've been hunting like crazy trying to find a keyboard synth or controller (weighted keys like you mentioned) that has that ability, and so far, having emailed various people that are experts, and having searched the web over several times, those Oberheim units are the ONLY possiblity! That sounds a little goofy that it would be that way, and if anyone has any information to the contrary, I would love to know about it.

 

I'm pretty sure that you're right. There aren't that many people making dedicated controllers at all these days, since it costs so little to add a synth engine to one...I haven't heard of any current models other than the Oberheim units that send polyphonic aftertouch.

 

There's a lot of confusion about the whole polyphonic aftertouch thing. I've heard several terms used to decribe it, and I've heard the SAME term used to describe very opposite things. What I'm referring to it this:

If you play and hold C triad (C,E,G), and then and pressure to the E key, with what I am referring to as polyphonic aftertouch, the E will get louder/brighter/vibrato (however the synth is programmed to react to polyphonic aftertouch, but the C and G will remain as they are.

 

That is the correct definition as I understand it, as well.

 

With virtually ALL other keyboards that have aftertouch, the increase of pressure is applied to all held keys. If you play that triad and add pressure to the E, the C & G will get the same increase in volume or brightness, etc. I'm not sure what the ACTUAL term is, because I've heard them used interchangeably... but it might be simply "aftertouch" or "mono pressure" or "channel pressure".

 

Usually aftertouch or channel pressure - I don't see mono pressure used too often.

 

I've always been under the impression that Roland came up with the "channel" moniker. The first place that I remember seeing it was on the old MC-500 in the late '80s - you could toggle between channel pressure (which they abbreviated Caf) and Poly pressure (which they abbreviated Paf), because even though you might think that you'd always want to receive it, poly pressure generates a whole lotta cc data.

 

Please note, however, that unless you have a MIDI device that can recognize this information, it won't matter anyway.

 

There are actually a bunch of instruments that respond to polyphonic aftertouch - I would venture to ay that more do than don't. I know all of the Alesis synths do, and the Kurzweil stuff as well...all Ensoniq synths, too, if I remember correctly. I'd say that more instruments do than don't these days, if I had to guess.

 

dB

[Steve44]

The current 88 Key Master Controllers on the market are: Roland A90(EX), Oberheim MC3000/2000, Fatar SL2001/880, Doepfer LMK 4+/2+ and Peavey C8X. They all have excellent keyboard hammer actions and pretty wonderful controller capabilities. I would say that the Oberheim is probably the most flexible, in that it has 8 midi outs (instead of 4) and can do 128 channels, and 8 sliders instead of 4. The Peavey has some cool features like a Guitar-Strum mode and an Arpeggiator. The Roland is particularly well-suited to controlling Roland modules. The Kurzweil PC2 & PC88 should also qualify to this list, but you have to take their sounds.

 

Generally the major differences between the models are: number of zones - 8 or 4, number of controllers - sliders, knobs, wheels etc., types of messages it sends - midi, cc, sysex, nrpn, bank change etc., number of pedal inputs, and number of velocity/aftertouch curves.

 

The Oberheim MC3000 leads the pack in all these concepts, but other 8 zone controllers include: A90, LMK4, C8x, and Sl2001. The 4 zone controllers are: LMK2, SL880, MC2000. The 8 zone controllers range in price from $1350-2000, and the 4 zone controllers from $600-1500. A Used PC88 is a cool choice too for under $1000. Amazingly, Musician's Friend is discounting the Oberheims quite a bit (probably because they don't sell any).

 

One more item of interest: The Oberheim MC3000D is a box that lets you make any keyboard into a Master Controller as powerful as the MC3000, with 8 sliders and tons of control parameters. It's like a a PC1600X on Steroids - it still has the 8 independent Midi outs! I'm not sure if it was released in the U.S., the only store I found it on is in London.

 

Here are a handful of links:

http://www.viscount-organs.com/oberheim/

http://www.peavey.com/mi/dpm_c8x.html

http://www.doepfer.com/lmk_e.htm

Roland A90 Info

Fatar SL2001 Info

 

This message has been edited by Steve44 on 02-04-2001 at 02:47 AM

[Steve44]

Originally posted by musicman1@ovation.net:

The Oberheim MC2000 and MC3000 are apparently the ONLY MIDI keyboards on the market (controller or otherwise) that will SEND that information.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they unfortunately do not send polyphonic aftertouch. I went searching around for the right info and found this quote from the Keyboard Report written by Ernie Rideout which discusses its 64 velocity/aftertouch curves: "Like everyone else's, the instrument also lacks the ability to transmit polyphonic aftertouch. But what curves!"

 

I, too, have dreamed about the possibility of poly-aftertouch for some time. As far as I can tell, there were only 3 instruments ever made with that feature: The Yamaha CP-70, the Roland A-80, and some Kurzweil board I can't remember. I only just recently found out about the A-80 from some old thread here, unfortunately it seems to have been notorious for a horrible touch.

 

The only currently viable possibility for polyphonic aftertouch is the Gulbransen KS20 piano to Midi retrofit. Its feature set is top notch and its scanners will spot the tiniest movement of your keys and make poly-aftertouch data with it. Otherwise, I'm looking into the possibility of making a Logic environment patch that would take incoming note, aftertouch, and some sort of position selector data and process them to create poly-aftertouch data.

 

 

Anyways, here's Ernie's conclusion on th MC3000: "It's great to play, it's deep enough to let you control a large rack, and it's pretty darn easy to get around on. For the kind of live playing I do, these positives outweigh the omissions of polyphonic aftertouch, assignable aftertouch in general, and pedal polarity-switching.

[Dave Bryce]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but they unfortunately do not send polyphonic aftertouch. I went searching around for the right info and found this quote from the Keyboard Report written by Ernie Rideout which discusses its 64 velocity/aftertouch curves: "Like everyone else's, the instrument also lacks the ability to transmit polyphonic aftertouch. But what curves!"

 

That surprises me, too...when I first saw the Oberheim controllers at whatever trade show it was that I saw them at ( http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ), I thought I remembered the Oberheim product guys telling me that they were going to have poly pressure. I'm certain that Ernie must be right, though.

 

As far as I can tell, there were only 3 instruments ever made with that feature: The Yamaha CP-70, the Roland A-80, and some Kurzweil board I can't remember.

 

The CP-70? Really? Okay, now it's gotta be the CP-70M, 'cause the 70 didn't have MIDI...at least, I don't remember it having MIDI...wow..was there a CP80M? Didn't that have it as well?

 

The Kurzweil that you are speaking of is the Midiboard. They were awesome controllers, especially the ones with v3 software. I'm believe that Bob Moog worked on that product when he was at Kurzweil in the late '80s.

 

For some reason, I also seem to remember that the Elka controller (MK-88, I think) sent poly pressure...and I think there was at least one Ensoniq synth that did, too - but I can't remember which.

 

There was also this big ugly controller made in the late '80s - I believe the model number was GZ1000, but I don't remember the manufacturer. It had a lever on the side that allowed you to actually physically adjust the response of the keys, and some colorform-type overlays for the keys, because you had to use them to program the thing...it had poly pressure too, if memory serves. They used to have one of these with its guts hanging out tacked to the wall on the way into the keyboard room in Medley Music in Pennsylvania.

 

Research time...

 

dB

[Steve44]

In a fit of boredom, I did the research for you, Dave.

 

...and in a fit of incredible stupidity, in my hurry to complement you on an outstanding job of research, I hit the edit button instead of the reply button, and wiped out an excellent post.

 

Jeez... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

Forgive me, Steve...

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

I'd also like to add that I really wish that you'd repost that info, but I'll understand if you don't - it was a long post (with very nice UBB links 'n everything!), and I'm totally bummed at myself for accidentally editing it.

 

Thanks again for doing the research. Your thoroughness is appreciated.

 

dB

[Guest]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I'd also like to add that I really wish that you'd repost that info, but I'll understand if you don't - it was a long post (with very nice UBB links 'n everything!), and I'm totally bummed at myself for accidentally editing it.

 

Thanks again for doing the research. Your thoroughness is appreciated.

 

dB

 

It took me a few seconds to understand what had happened.. I would imagine you would have to enter your password or something so that only the original writer of the post can edit the message. Isn't that a little bit dangerous that others can do it? I haven't seen it happened on this forum, but I've seen in others where people get downright nasty in the conversations and I would hate to see anyone being able to twist some else's words... Just a thought..

 

Rod

[Dave Bryce]

It took me a few seconds to understand what had happened.. I would imagine you would have to enter your password or something so that only the original writer of the post can edit the message. Isn't that a little bit dangerous that others can do it?

 

Others can't do it. Only the original writer of the post can edit it; and, of course, the forum's moderator has the rights to edit or delete any post. That'd be me. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

I have wiped out more than my share of my own text over the years, but this is the first time that I erased someone else's writing.

 

Boy, do I feel dopey.

 

dB

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by msis@sympatico.ca:

In fact, I need a keyboard to control my racks of modules...S-760, XV-5080 etc.,I don't want any sounds in it, I don't need them.

 

What's wrong with having sounds in it? The Kurzweil PC2, in my opinion, is a fabulous performance controller, even without the sounds. It is very comprehensive and user-friendly. It sort of carries on the Roland A-80/A-50 tradition, only better. Bonus: it has really good piano and electric piano sounds, and the B3-mode. Drawback: B3 mode has to be controlled by 4 sliders and a mod wheel. But, you can't have everything in this life, right? Seriously, I would check out the PC2x.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by guestuser@guestuser.com:

What's wrong with having sounds in it? .

 

This is an excellent point, and the main reason why more manufacturers don't make controller-ony keyboards - it doesn't cost that much more to drop a sound engine into them (depending, of course, on the sound engine).

 

The Kurzweil PC2, in my opinion, is a fabulous performance controller, even without the sounds

 

No doubt. Even the older PC88 was an excellent controller - it had a great feeling keybed, and a comprehensive set of controls, including four assignable sliders that alowed you to assign four simultaneous controllers per slider per setup, each with it's own entry and exit values. It had MIDI program maps for 0-127 synths, 1-128 synths, that peculiar Roland base 8 thing (11-88) - even the Casio A1 - H8 setup. You gotta love that. Pretty cool arpeggiator as well.

 

I would venture to say that the PC88 has been one of the most-used 88 key controllers overall since its debut in the early '90s - as a piano keyboard, of course, but I know a ton of musicians who use them to control their racks as well, especially live.

 

dB

[steadyb]

regarding poly aftertouch...

The Prophet T-8 had poly aftertouch, but I can't remember if it had MIDI...(did the T-8 come before or after the Prophet-600?)

steadyb

[Dave Bryce]

BTW -

 

As best as I can remember, Steve44's research on keyboards with poly pressure turned up the following:

 

Roland A80 and A50 master controllers.

Cheetah MS7000 and MS8000 master controllers.

The GZ1000 that I mentioned above, which was made by a company called KTI.

He also dug up the Ensoniq synth that I was trying to remember that sent poly pressure...the VFX. According to Synthony's online museum, the EPS keyboards all did as well.

 

Also according to Synthony, the Kurzweil K1000 transmitted poly pressure...the funny thing is, I was working for them when that was out; and, although I remember the 1000 series receiving poly pressure, I don't recall them sending it. I'm gonna have to email someone in Waltham...

 

dB

[Mike Martin]

The Ensoniq EPS, ASR10, VFX, SD1 and TS10 all had polyphonic aftertouch. The MR61 did not, neither did any of their 76 key keyboards.

[Guest]

I thought about getting the SL-880 in trade for my old Roland RD-300s... however after spending a little time playing the SL-880 I was left feeling that it was better for playing fast runs but felt cheap and didn't really feel anything like a real piano.

 

Now and again I'm lucky enough to play Steinways and Bechsteins in hotels and at the odd gig and thought that they were getting somewhere near to replicating that feel... I'm still pretty disappointed by all attempts.

 

The Yamaha P200 had a great action, not really like a real piano, but it played and just "felt" good.

 

Perhaps thats all you/we really want.. a piano that feels good ;-)

 

Peace

Neil

[KidCharlemagne]

this is interesting. I have not used the aftertouch feature on my S80, but was not aware that aftertouch for one voice applied to all voices. But I can assign aftertouch to different voices in different ranges, no? (I believe that effects are assigned to all voices played by a single note.)

[Markyboard]

I saw the MC3000 at the Namm show and have one on order. I some how missed or totally forgot about the review in July 98 Keyboard. This thing felt great (they had no sound module hooked up to it at Namm). I currently own an A80. As much as I like Poly-aftertouch, it takes way to much force to get the after touch (channel or poly) to activate on the A80 (I've tried all kinds of curves). This is a mechanical design problem with the board. I am currently waiting for my MC3000 - due this week. I'll gladly give up the poly-aftertouch just to be able to use channel after-touch without spraining a finger. The MC3000 seems to kick in the aftertouch with just the right pressure. You can tell this from the MIDI monitor (since no sound module was hooked up). It also seems to have the excellent resolution for the controller data sent out. They may be discontinuing this board as the price seems to have dropped since I begun shopping over the last month.