guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Has anyone taken a good look at this synth? It appears to be a "crossover". Namely, it crosses over from the 'portable keyboard', or 'arranger synth' world, to the professional performance synth world of Tritons, Roland XP80's, Yamaha S80's, Kurzweil PC2's, and whatnot. It keeps its PSR lineage, but it has some features that would look good on any synth, such as 48 MB of sample ROM, 76 keys, full voice programmability, 8 tones per voice (!), 256-note polyphony, expandability via Yamaha's so-called modular expansions, the same ones used in the S80 and CS6x. It has main outs and individual outs, etc., etc. Namely, all the stuff you'd like to see on a professional performance synth. It has gobs of nice Yamaha piano samples, and it has physically modeled tonewheel organ with virtual drawbars. Oops I made a mistake above, it has 126-note polyphony, not 256. It also has a sampler, and you can load it with 64mb of RAM. You can put an 8MB internal hard disk in it, and it has a SCSI-2 port. It has an input for an ASCII computer keyboard. It has connectors for gooseneck lamps (e.g. LittleLite) It also has arranger keyboard goodies like auto accompaniment, and a video output for displaying lyrics. The cheesy use for this is to display lyrics to the audience for karaoke. But it could also be used as an aid for singers on stage, pointing the monitor at the performers, not at the audience. And by the way, it costs even more than a Triton. So, what is it? And, do you think we'll see pros start to use this thing? Or is the 'arranger keyboard' baggage too much for peoples' pride? It looks extremely interesting to me as a live performance synth, even if you didn't use the arranger functions. For instance you could use it to play back sequences just like other workstation-type synths, and play along with them. There are all kinds of possibilities. It's not perfect, but it's definitely not a home keyboard. Some of the specs outclass anything else on the market, such as 48 MB of sample ROM. I don't work for Yamaha, but I'm impressed with this thing. Here's the URL: http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/pk/pk2000/products/pro9000/pro9000.htm This message has been edited by guestuser@guestuser.com on 01-31-2001 at 09:43 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 I agree it's an interesting looking synth.. it's like an s30 crossed with a PSR. The fact that all the patches are categorized as either "Live!" "Cool!" or "Sweet!" would really get to me. I didn't realize it was that expensive.. I guess it's main competitor then is the new Korg Karma, although its feature set is also similar to the GEM Equinox. I have a feeling (from what I've read) that the Karma's accompaniment stuff is much more creative and less lounge/song oriented than the PSR's, but then again they're not editable, whereas the Yamaha's are. At first I thought the Yamaha was super cheesy, but on second look it has power features and it does sound good. The goosenecks are funny but practical. As I said in the Karma thread I'm reevaluating my hatred of accompaniment/arranger synths and will probably look into these various models a little more seriously this summer. About it sounding good: I take that back - I finished listening to their demos and nearly all of them are in the style that makes me want to puke, that physically make my body sick. Even though I could put a Vl-70 board in that thing I don't think I could stomach the fact that it's made for a lounge keyboard player doing arrangements that make me want to run away. I'm simply not that kind of player, or listener. My second look at the keyboard was more favorable. My third look (or my second hearing) made me sick to my stomach. So now I'll pay little attention to its existence. This message has been edited by steve44@visto.com on 01-31-2001 at 01:57 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 31, 2001 Author Share Posted January 31, 2001 The demos of most synths are cheesy. You have to look beyond that and think about what you could do with it. It sounds like you have mixed feelings towards arranger synths, like you said. I don't get the "live!, cool!, and sweet!" thing, either. Oh, by the way, I made a mistake, the maximumm polyphony is 126 notes, not 256. I think all the other specs I gave were right, though. This message has been edited by guestuser@guestuser.com on 01-31-2001 at 07:48 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Denike Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 More of a question than a review, but how can it 'compete' with the (cheaper) Korg Oasys/Karma/Triton when it only has 50 MB of ROM? Doesn't GM usually take up even more space? Don't 'those other' keyboards have about three times as much ROM as the Yamaha? I think it's great to incorporate the video out, we could easily use it at church once we had all the lyrics/lead sheets programmed into it . . . but doesn't the ROM tend to dictate the sound quality? Especially in the 24-bit era? Maybe the 'nexzt next' generation will take care of this... Comments? Am I wrong about MEMORY = QUALITY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 More of a question than a review, but how can it 'compete' with the (cheaper) Korg Oasys/Karma/Triton when it only has 50 MB of ROM? Last time I looked a stock Triton only had 32 MB of ROM. I am hard-pressed to come up with any synth that has more than 48 MB out of the box. Doesn't GM usually take up even more space? Depends on the GM set. The original ones were only about 2MB, I believe. The better ones tend to be about 8 MB Doesn't the ROM tend to dictate the sound quality? Especially in the 24-bit era? Quantity is not always the answer, Steven. Good sound design is the answer. There are plenty of big samples with poor sound design that are nowhere near as playable as some of the smaller ones that were sampled, keymapped and looped by folks who know what they're doing. Look at all of the folks who swear by the piano sample in the Kurzweil PC88/micropiano...it's not even a meg and a half, and I believe that it was only sampled at 32kHz - and it's mono! Nonetheless, I have seen and heard endless feedback espousing it over much bigger higher resolution samples. Don't get caught up in the math. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted February 1, 2001 Author Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Doesn't GM usually take up even more space? Depends on the GM set. The original ones were only about 2MB, I believe. The better ones tend to be about 8 MB The 9000 Pro is not a GM box, although it does contain a set of GM programs. But then again, so does the Triton. It's not a bad thing. doesn't the ROM tend to dictate the sound quality? Especially in the 24-bit era? Quantity is not always the answer, Steven. Good sound design is the answer. There are plenty of big samples with poor sound design that are nowhere near as playable as some of the smaller ones that were sampled, keymapped and looped by folks who know what they're doing. True, but this is Yamaha, and they have plenty of experience at putting together good ROMplers. The ideal combination is lots of ROM *plus* good sound design. I haven't played this thing yet, but I've listened to the .MP3 demos, and while some of the demo music might be cheesy, the sounds themselves seem very good. One thing that seems odd to me is that they included a physically modelled tonewheel organ in it, with virtual drawbars. And yet, Yamaha doesn't have a modelled B3-type instrument in their lineup. So, they either borrowed the software from somewhere else (Korg?), or maybe this means that soon they'll be coming out with their own modelled B3. What would be very cool would be if they came out with a B3-style 'modular expansion' card that would fit in the S80 and CS6x. This message has been edited by guestuser@guestuser.com on 02-01-2001 at 10:34 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Originally posted by guestuser@guestuser.com: True, but this is Yamaha, and they have plenty of experience at putting together good ROMplers. The ideal combination is lots of ROM *plus* good sound design. I haven't played this thing yet, but I've listened to the .MP3 demos, and while some of the demo music might be cheesy, the sounds themselves seem very good. I would be thoroughly shocked if they weren't. I fully agree with you on all of your points above - I was not trying to cast any aspersions on Yamaha's sound designers at all. I was responding to Mr. Denike's question about quantity in general, and the point that I was attempting to make was what artistry can be done with small ROM when you've got quality sound designers, not that anyone's ROMs weren't well done. As a matter of fact, Yamaha's PSR keyboards has always astounded me - even the cheap ones. The PSR-500 series used to have an autodemo of Grieg's piano concerto in A minor that was ridiculous for a $500 auto-accompaniment box. Ronnie Foster does stuff with a PSR instrument that sounds like an album, and makes me want to own one. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Denike Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 THanks, again, for the informative answers and reality check. One of my biggest disapointments with the CUBASE 5.0 software was the GM sound set they included, which was written as a selling point for use on Rocket Network. Since then, I've become rather skeptical about what gets advertised and what actually works . . . I guess, in that way, I do tend to get caught up in the math. What is the construction of the PRO like? Plastic, or roadworthy? If I were to buy two synths this year (if my wife lets me, and Revenue Canada doesn't object to last years write-offs), would this be one of them? What about the Andromeda? What would be the top two in reasonable (i.e. less than Kurzweill 2600) price range, with the least depreciation? Please keep the feedback rolling.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Denike Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 And a few recent numbers to keep the math rolling: Korg OASYS version 2 ships with the entire Triton library - that's 130 MB of sounds on a $1200.oo PCI card. Sonic Reality's software Synth comes with over 600 MBs of WAV sounds, and that program costs $299.00 I guess when I look at keyboards, especially sexy stuff like the Korg CSX, I tend to expect high numbers to correspond to the high prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve44 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Yes, Stephen those are numbers.. but some of the wrong ones. The Oasys has 44 different types of instruments, basically the inner workings of every synthesizer Korg makes, and more. The fact that the sample library isn't big doesn't matter (though the 130 MB is a lot of stuff in addition to the Triton library) because it's well programmed and Sample-playback is only one of many kinds of synths in that card. It's also a super-powerful effects processor with 135 types. Any software sampler, even giga studio 96 which you can get for $400 with some 2-3 gigabytes of files, is still only that one type of instrument, unlike the Oasys which also does Virtual Analog, FM, and many other types of synthesis. It's not about the Math. It's about the concepts. My first teacher always said "Think Simple" - make sure you're focusing on stuff that matters, not just numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Discussions of the size of various sample ROMs or RAMs is interesting, of course, but it always has to be put into perspective. The thread started out as a discussion of the Yamaha 9000 Pro, which appears to be primarily designed as a live performance instrument, although of course it could also be used as a writing/arranging tool, etc. Software synthesizers are a different genre. They are not designed for performance, although it's not impossible to use them for that. So I think it might be more useful to compare the 9000 Pro to other hardware synthesizers, especially those designed with performance in mind, such as Triton, S80, PC2, etc. In that context, the base sample ROM of the 9000 Pro is huge. PC2 has 16MB, and can be expanded to 48 MB by adding two ROM blocks (which don't exist yet). S80 comes with 24MB, exandable to 56 by adding two cards. Triton comes with 32MB, exandable to 64 by adding two cards. 9000 Pro comes with 48 MB standard, exandable to 80 by adding two cards. As Dave Bryce pointed out, programming is more important than size of sample ROM alone. Still, it's something to consider. What I find appealing is that it appears to be designed so well for live performance. I'm always amazed at how few are the number of synths that are really good for performing with. There are some synths that have some good performing features such as the Kurzweil PC2, but there are many that don't, or that have many shortcomings. For instance, the Triton is a very nice instrument, but as a live performing instrument, it has so many drawbacks. One quick example: if you're playing patch number 4 in bank A, and press the Bank B button, the sound automatically changes to the sound in B-4. I like the Triton, but I think it is happier as a writing or studio instrument than on stage, although I do see a lot of them being used on stages. Of course there is the cheese factor, but the 9000 appears to overcome that. This message has been edited by guestuser@guestuser.com on 02-02-2001 at 10:49 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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