sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Do keyboard players spend too much ? I have been thinking about this lately because of the thread "what's your set-up". I have a room full of stuff too, and even more in the closet that I haven't used for years. How much polyphony is neccessary ? I love gear like the next guy, but how much is enough ? Then last night I read the review of the Kurzweil 2600. The thing lists for $7,100 ! Must have been a typo. If you told a guitar player that you spent that much he or she might have you commited to a padded room. Will people pay that much, considering the great synths available for less than 2 grand ? The other thing is that I'm a guitar player as well, and they are just so much better investments. They usually cost less than a synth and they seem to last forever (in fact, they sound better with age) Many keyboards I bought years ago sound dated and are worthless on the re-sale market. That sucks. Try this: add up all the keyboards/modules you bought in the last 15 years, except the two or three you use most. Now assume you put that in a decent stock mutual fund ten years ago. Scary isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 That's for sure. Worse yet, I think of some of the guitars I've owned that I've sold for more keyboards...some of those guitars would buy a new K 2600 if I had them today. And yet, my old keys bring about a forth of what I originally paid, if that. jw http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz@hotmail.com: And yet, my old keys bring about a forth of what I originally paid, if that. Bad if you're the seller, but good if you're the buyer. If you're not in a hurry to get a particular instrument, the fact that keyboards devalue pretty quickly can be a very good thing. I paid $1000 for my Jupiter 8, and it listed for something like 5k when it first came out. Same with my Wave - I got it for about $1500, as opposed to its original tag of $8500. I, too, have a difficult time justifying spending that kind of money on a single synth, especially (as noted above by Steve) when there is a plethora of really great stuff available at lower prices. The K2600 is a really great example - I mean, it is a completely great, unbelievably powerful synth, but you can get a K2500 (which, let's face it, is pretty much the same synth) along with a bunch of other gear - including an entire soup-to-nuts state of the art recording studio for the same price. Also, the fact that synths devalue quickly is a good argument for making sure that any equipment that you purchase is really right for you, so that you will want to keep it for long enough to justify the expense. If you tend to get bored with gear very quickly, it may be a good idea to try and restrict your purchases to used synths that have already devalued - you might even make money on them if you buy them at the correct time. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyman Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I used to have gear lust- spending too much money on the equipments that I don't really need to have. Now, whenever I am bored with any synth or a FX, I try to roll up my sleeves and program them to get new, flesh sounds out. I am still trying hard to squeeze out new patches out of my DX7 and the TX802. But at the same time, I also try hard to hold down the temptation to get the Korg Triton rack. It's so beautiful... ARH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hooked on Keys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 23, 2001 Author Share Posted January 23, 2001 I have also been bitten by the home studio bug, just like many musicians these days. That's a good thing in my opinion because you can incorporate old gear that doesn't have MIDI into your system, like my Moog Source that was never being played much because I didn't want to modify it with a MIDI interface.. On the other hand, I never really had gear lust as bad as I do now that I record at home. I bought an Oberheim Matrix 6 for $150 that works perfectly now. It had a scrambled LCD when I bought it and I assumed I would have to get it repaired. Then I read an article on how it was common for this to happen on Matrix 6's, and it recommended just re-initializing it. Two minutes later the thing worked perfectly. If you factor in inflation, synths were a lot more expensive years ago. The Korg M1 or Yamaha DX7 would seem really expensive today. It's just that they were so amazing in their time that it didn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 K2600 is a really great example - I mean, it is a completely great, unbelievably powerful synth, but you can get a K2500 (which, let's face it, is pretty much the same synth) David, I have to disagree. The K2600's Triple Modular Processing is as revolutionary as VAST itself. It has redifined synthesis as we know it. This alone sets the K2600 apart from the K2500 and any other keyboard available. ------------------ Mike Martin Kurzrep@aol.com Kurzweil Music Systems www.kurzweilconnection.com -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Mike Martin: David, I have to disagree. The K2600's Triple Modular Processing is as revolutionary as VAST itself. It has redifined synthesis as we know it. This alone sets the K2600 apart from the K2500 and any other keyboard available. I agree with you that the K2600 is ridiculously powerful. I just wonder if it sounds that much superior to the K2500 that the average person can appreciate it enough to rationalize buying it, that's all - especially given the variety of other equipment that they could get with the same money. Admittedly, the pile of equipment might not be as revolutionary and powerful as the K2600, but I'll bet that you can make some pretty decent music with 7k worth of gear, and accomplish many of the things that the K2600 can do by including a K2500 in the package. That's all I'm saying - no disrespect intended. Please don't tell Lee... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hughes Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 If a keyboardist spends "too much" money, then it is by choice. These days, there are a hell of a lot of decent keyboards that can fulfil just about any need. Sure, there are cheap guitars, but typically, they're just that -- cheap. Figure that most good guitars start at around $500, and that's not a whole lot less than some nice keyboards from Alesis, Yamaha, and Roland. Sure, keyboards are more expensive, but they also do a lot more than a guitar. In the hands of the vast majority of people, a guitar will always sound like a guitar, even if it's run through a ton of effects. A keyboard has a much wider sound palette right out of the box, and that, to me, justifies its higer cost. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Keyman: I also try hard to hold down the temptation to get the Korg Triton rack. It's so beautiful... ARH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's one investment you WON'T regret! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif At the same time, I have to wonder how many K2600's Young Chang is expecting to sell. Seven thousand bucks?? They discontinued the K2000, a perfectly serviceable keyboard that lots of people can afford. Instead of blowing 7 G's on Triple Mode, I'd rather spend $1500 to $1900 on an updated K2000 - call it the K2001 - that offers 48 - 64 meg of excellent waveforms, digital outputs, and improved D/A converters. Are you listening, Young Chang? If you build it, they will buy! I own three Kurzweils, and they were all B stock units, so I saved a bundle. Another way to save is to be patient, as Dave suggests. This is my rule of thumb for buying computers. Pick out the hotest system available, one that makes you drool. Write the specs on a piece of paper along with the price. Put the paper in a drawer for six to nine months. Now look up what that system would cost you. You should be able to buy it for half the original price. Remember, it's the same system you lusted after 9 months ago. Don't tell yourself that it's not good enough today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 24, 2001 Author Share Posted January 24, 2001 I don't think new keyboards around the $500 range are very good. I am not snobbish about equipment at all, but nothing in that price range gets me inspired. I think the Alesis drum modules might be good at that price, but that's drums and not keyboard sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyman Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 I know the Triton Rack is worth the money DanSouth, but I'm eating instant Ramen noodle as my main meal now. If I keep on buying stuff then I couldn't even afford the instance noodle. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Hooked on Keys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Question for Dave Bryce... How in the world did you manage to get a Wave for $1500 ? Know of any others going for that ? Alon (Who wishes he had a Wave !!!) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_dup2 Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 How in the world did you manage to get a Wave for $1500 ? I think it's the PPG, not the Waldorf Just an idea for the K2600 discussion: http://www.kurzweil-europe.de/kurzweil/d_k26.htm In Germany, the K2600 is listet 3.472 euro, now remember that one euro is less than one dollar - got it? ------------------ Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Alon: Question for Dave Bryce... How in the world did you manage to get a Wave for $1500 ? Marc is right - it is a PPG Wave 2.2, not one of the $10,000 Waldorf Waves. BTW, everything that I've heard about the Waldorf Wave (including feedback from some of the Waldorf folks) leads me to believe that their XT is a better buy, and will give you a decent amount of that same wavetable buzz. Of course, the big Wave looks much cooler... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Originally posted by SteveRB: I have also been bitten by the home studio bug, just like many musicians these days. That's a good thing in my opinion because you can incorporate old gear that doesn't have MIDI into your system, like my Moog Source that was never being played much because I didn't want to modify it with a MIDI interface.. On the other hand, I never really had gear lust as bad as I do now that I record at home. I bought an Oberheim Matrix 6 for $150 that works perfectly now. It had a scrambled LCD when I bought it and I assumed I would have to get it repaired. Then I read an article on how it was common for this to happen on Matrix 6's, and it recommended just re-initializing it. Two minutes later the thing worked perfectly. If you factor in inflation, synths were a lot more expensive years ago. The Korg M1 or Yamaha DX7 would seem really expensive today. It's just that they were so amazing in their time that it didn't matter. That's a fact, Steve. I paid $2300 for an 01/W Korg back in early 1992. I bought a Triton last fall for $2400 and that's an 01/w to the 10th power!!! But, I must confess, there are some really good sounds on the 01 that, for whatever reason, Korg did not put on later instruments including the Triton. I don't know if they got so caught up in the techno wars that they forgot how good some of the old stuff sounded or what, but there are some choirs, guitars, saxes, flutes and an arco string patch that I did not find the likes of anywhere when trying out new keys. I know it's not just that I am used to the sound of them because engineers and other keyboardists rave over them whenever they hear them. Everyone is always looking for the sampler that's not there...except now that I have the Triton. So, there you have it. You can probably pick up an 01 for about 500 bucks and you have floppy drive, 16 tracks and some good sounds. My son takes it to college with him and he's writng some awesome stuff on it. jwk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Aikin Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Keyboards today are unbelievably powerful compared to what they were like 10 years ago, so it's hard to complain too much about the bang-for-the-buck factor. (A new Prophet-5, in 1978, cost more than a new Supernova II does. Wanna do a feature-by-feature comparison?) One problem is that keyboardists often need to spend more in order to have the latest sounds. This is not such a big issue, I believe, for guitarists, who can buy a stompbox or new amp for far less, or even learn some new licks and not spend a cent. It's all relative, though. I bought a semi-decent new cello last summer, and paid (including the bow) around $8,000. For a top-notch instrument, I could easily have paid twice or three times as much. This for an instrument that will make perhaps 20 timbres in all, maxes out at 4 voices of polyphony, can't be played by a MIDI sequencer, and won't even play in tune if the player doesn't concentrate. Oh, and if this one gets run over by a truck, I'll never, ever be able to get one that sounds or plays exactly the same. Which side of the fence has the greener grass on it? I dunno -- I can't figure it out any longer. --Jim Aikin This message has been edited by Jim Aikin on 01-25-2001 at 08:06 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 jwk- funny you mentioned the Korg 01/W because that is my main sample-playback synth. I bought it new in 1991 and it is a great synth, but the keys are wearing out and the repairs are a real pain in the butt. The waveshaping is a powerful feature and I still play it every day. Even though it only has 6 megabites of samples (or 5 megs, I forget) I feel I only scratch the surface of whats possible. It just goes to show that specs don't mean that much. I'm considering buying the Electrix Filter Queen to see what that can do for the 01/W and my drum machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 26, 2001 Author Share Posted January 26, 2001 jwk- funny you mentioned the Korg 01/W because that is my main sample-playback synth. I bought it new in 1991 and it is a great synth, but the keys are wearing out and the repairs are a real pain in the butt. The waveshaping is a powerful feature and I still play it every day. Even though it only has 6 megabites of samples (or 5 megs, I forget) I feel I only scratch the surface of whats possible. It just goes to show that specs don't mean that much. I'm considering buying the Electrix Filter Queen to see what that can do for the 01/W and my drum machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 It's even funnier still that the O1/W came up in this forum sinc ethe only synth I know of that does waveshaping like that good old Korg is the Kurzweil!! What I think is interesting is that now us keyboardists/home studio owners get to pretend that we're not spending so much by buying dozens of plug-ins that don't cost so much on their own, but add up quickly. Sure there's no better deal on the market than an NI B4 or a Steniberg Model-E but the whole plug-in platform is modeled after a "I want more of 'em" capitalist mind-set. I wouldn't doubt that most computer based studios have thousands of dollars in plug-ins alone. It's easier to justify, but it still ends up being a big sum of cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Just an afterthought. My personal experience is: I didn't buy any new synth in the last three years. My last new synth was an XP-80, mainly for live use in certain situations; then I bought an used VL-1 about two years ago. The reasons: 1) and most important: I have all the sounds I need! Yeah, I would love a VA, but with a K2000, a Matrix-12 and a bit of programming, there's nothing I can't do. 2) I'm running out of space and mixer inputs. 3) I try to make the most of what I have. I'm still squeezing new sounds out of the Wavestation and the TG77, let alone the Kurz or the VL-1. They are deep, complex machines and I don't see any point in spending money to get a new "workstation" only 'cause it has slightly cleaner samples. The XP-80 itself has been "personalized" with my own sounds and expansion boards. 4) I just got a new grand piano a few months ago, so not only I'm short on money, but also I'm so in love with "organic" sounds, than a new synth must really have something special to attract me. 5) I also bought a digital multitrack, and that made my wallet even lighter... 6) With all the amazing softsynths that are coming out now, I'm still more cautious in considering purchases of new hardware. (mm, this is is not entirely true. I love hardware, and I'm still asking myself if I would be able to stand an all-in-the-computer system...) my 1/2 cent marino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOS Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Keyboards are obviously more expensive than say, guitars, but think how much you can do with a keyboard. I mean, I've seen some crazy sounds I'd never imagine come out of a guitar, but that's just the start with a keyboard. Now I'm speaking generally here, but what also makes keyboard players spend so much is that we usually compose more than any other intrument players so I guess it's money well spent. I've got friends who play all kinds of instruments, but the one thing I've noticed among them is that the ones who really compose and know their equipment and such are the keyboard players. If you really want to spend, get a Kurzweil 2500AES. Sure, it's $20,000 (that's no typo), but I'd buy it just for the looks. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Keyboardists do know a lot of theory but everyone knows it's the singer and rhythm guitarist that get all the groupies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Steve: And that's why we're so bitter... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botch. Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 The sad fact of the matter is a guitar is an acoustic musical instrument, i.e. it makes sounds through physical vibrations, whereas a synth is basically a computer, and will always become "obsolete" rather quickly. Fortunately, I personally feel that the point of diminished returns was reached several years ago, and I haven't heard a new synth that sounds noticeably better than my Kurz PC-88, Nord Lead 1, and Yamaha EX5, and feel I can record and perform to my limited ability for the rest of my life on this gear. Oh, and I still retain my at-the-time $2,000 TG-77 for its solo sax patch! Now, if I can just keep from trying out the new Korg CX-3...... Botch "Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will www.puddlestone.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbox Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 My engineer friends who spent tens of thousands of dollars on their ProTools Mix systems say, "Its not how much you spend, its how much money your gear helps you earn." How much return do you get in return for your investment? That might help you decide if youre spending too much. I think the best bang for the buck is a good sampler and some great sampling CD-ROMs. Then, you can always have the freshest sounds as long as somebody has sampled them and made them available. Also, if you're keeping an old keyboard around just for one or two factory presets you like, consider sampling those sounds and selling your old keyboard to raise money for new gear. BTW, I played on a K2600 a few weeks ago at the NAMM show. Im sure that if you get under the hood, its an amazing keyboard; but the factory patches I played were of the same quality in my opinion as a K2000. Good, but nothing new. In other words, if I were heavily into sound design, I might very well buy a K2600. If I were just looking for an axe to bring to the gig, I would buy something else. The Novation Supernova II on the other hand...fresh, killer patches! This message has been edited by soapbox on 01-31-2001 at 05:49 PM Enthusiasm powers the world. Craig Anderton's Archiving Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Marc: In Germany, the K2600 is listet 3.472 euro, now remember that one euro is less than one dollar - got it? Very interesting! That means that, in Europe, a K2600 lists for the equivalent of $3250 USD. Yet they charge twice that price in the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Young Chang Europe offices are closing down as all operations will be handled from the USA. This is why the prices are so low, to liquidate the inventory. ------------------ Mike Martin Kurzrep@aol.com Kurzweil Music Systems www.kurzweilconnection.com -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Makes sense. Hey Euro Guys! Make your best deal now!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Martin Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Yep, cause they're not going to last. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif -Mike Martin Casio Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 hey, I have got to agree with you! For a nice keyboard, you have to spend thousands of dollars! Right now I'm trying to look for a nice keyboard that won't leave me broke, and I'm having a really hard time. If anyone has suggestions or advice, that would be nice! But anyways, yeah, you're right. Just to say you have the best keyboard in the neighbourhood, you have to spend way too much moolah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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