Advice on recording format would be welcomed!

[Scherzerbaol.com]

I am a newbie to recording in the digital world and am as confused as can be. My question is as regards where to head in doing a very modest basement studio for personal use (not to rent time to others). I have read as much as I can over the past few months and have visited some music stores. I am probably more confused than before doing these things!

 

I'm 47 years old, left music as a profession back in the analog days, and am looking for easy to use gear. I did buy a used Roland 1680 with effects cards and CD burner, which I have yet to really put through its paces. The small screen is a bit bothersome as is the idea that downloading data to the CD burner takes quite a bit of time......but it's here and it's mine, so maybe I'll simply need to learn to use it. I had thought about going to a computer-based system and was hot-to-trot to do this until reading about computer conflicts, lock ups, and other details that are quite scary for someone who is not a "techie" type. That brought me full circle in my thinking to something that may be a bit out-dated, but seems more simple (for me simple might be a very good thing!).

 

A number of folks I've spoken to have advised not heading toward an ADAT system "because the technology is old". Yet, I'm starting to think that maybe I need to be using older technology due to its more simplistic/intuitive nature. Obviously, I'm very confused and more than a bit lost. I should probably explain my planned uses for recording gear.

 

I play in a blues band and most of what I'd do would be in that genre with my bandmates. However, I run the PRS Forum (Paul Reed Smith Guitars) and have made some friends with a number of excellent players from around the world. I'm a bassist and have been asked to lay some bass tracks for different folks, all of whom have offered to lay guitar tracks down for my own personal creations. When conversing about formats, all seem to have access to ADAT units, so this seems a fairly natural way to get things done (sending ADAT tapes back and forth). Not being a person who would likely use midi, I imagine that 16 tracks would do just fine for my purposes. Here's the question part......

 

Although obviously more expensive to get into, are my suppositions regarding ease of use of an ADAT system incorrect? I'm assuming that I would need 2 ADAT XTs and a decent board (32 channels to avoid lots of patch changing), along with some outboard effects. I think that I realize that I would have to do everything manually, but at least I have some familiarity with doing this from the "old days" of 2" tape. Besides the Roland gear, I have an ART MPA Pro (2 channel) preamp, Mackie 824 monitors, a Tascam 2000 CD burner for mixing down to, and some assorted mics.

 

Perhaps there are some reasons (other than a bit higher cost) not to go the ADAT route. If so, please let me know what they are. I know that I lose the editing capabilities of a hard disk recorder. Maybe the ADATs are much harder to use or less reliable than I think, but we're talking limited personal use here, rather than running a pro studio where the gear is in constant use/abuse.

 

Thanks for any thoughts you might have to give to a technophobic newbie!

[Uh Clem]

OK, I'll take a crack this - ADATs should be fine - many people use them and if your associates do as well, then it could make collaboration easier.

 

If you get a console, a decent analog console is going to cost a lot more than a decent digital one that remains true until you start hitting fairly expensive analog desks you might find something good used. Someone on here who uses analog desks might be able to give you some suggestions. The under $5K 8-bus type boards are pretty much a waste of money.

 

Otherwise, Id say check out the Panasonic DA7 for a moderately priced digital board that a lot of people on the forum seem to like. If you have more in your budget, consider a Mackie D8B or the new Sony DMXR100. At least with these you get automation, recall and a decent sound. I use a Yamaha O2R, but I think it is getting a little dated a good deal on one of those used might not be a bad.

 

24 Channels is probably plenty.

 

You could go the computer route, but I havent heard anything I like in terms of EQ, compression, or reverb plug-ins that is good unless you get into a ProTools system. That is a commitment you want to study before jumping into.

 

Good luck.

[Guest]

Hi,

 

I know things can be rather confusing when starting out. There are no rules in recording and that's why everybody comes up with a different idea when you ask them about recording systems and formats. So below you'll find MY suggestions and I suggest you do a little more research before starting out.

 

ADAT is a very common format used by many people and it is very easy to exchange tapes and to back up and since it uses S-VHS tapes, the recording and back up media is cheap. It is very easy to use just like open reel analog tape machines (even easier) and less confusing than computer based systems. However, unless you get Alesis' or another computer based ADAT editing system, you cannot edit what's on tape.

 

My suggestion would be to check out MOTU's 2408mkII. It has 8 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs plus stereo digital inputs and outputs. It comes with recording software for Mac (go for Mac if you do not want to struggle with computer problems).

 

And it is just great that 2408 offers ADAT connection. Just buy a used ADAT LX20 and you can exchange tapes with other people. With 2408, transferring what's on ADATs to and from the computer in sync is really a piece of cake.

 

If you need some info about buying a used ADAT tell me. There are certain things to check out before you buy.

 

As STEVEPOW says decent analog mixers cost more than decent digital mixers.

 

Finally, if you have the budget go for ProTools on Mac (plus a synchronizer and ADAT XT or LX20 to exchange tapes).

 

Feel free to write me if you get confused, I'll try to help. Good luck!

[Guest]

Scherzerb,

 

> My question is as regards where to head in doing a very modest basement studio for personal use...<

 

I would advise not to bother with ADATs or large outboard mixers. Get a powerful PC with Windows 98 SE and you'll be WAY ahead, not to mention spending a lot less money. Yes, a lot of people have ADATs which makes it easy to swap tapes and lay down tracks on a friend's projects. But EVERYONE has a computer with a CD drive, and a CD burner in your computer is a lot more reliable than an ADAT in my opinion.

 

I had an ADAT for a few years that I used only occasionally. Before I had logged even 80 hours it ate a tape and cost $250 to have a stupid $2 internal switch replaced.

 

Unless you plan to do remotes, the stand-alone HD recorders are not that useful either. The tiny screens, limited hard drive space, and limited upgrade path make them far less attractive than a PC-based system. Further, when you record in a computer everything can be recalled and automated very easily.

 

--Ethan Winer

[Guest]

I recently (about a year ago) made the switch from 24 tracks of ADAT over to a G4 with MOTU 2408 running Digital Performer, and I've gotta tell you, it is highly unlikely that I would go back to tape unless I had to. I was waiting until the computers were powerful enough (no wait time to speak of while the audio is being processed) and backup was fast and inexpensive, and I think we're there - I can back up an average project (coupla hundred meg) to my 6x4x16 CD burner in just a few minutes...love that...much faster than backing up tape.

 

After having changed formats waaaaay too many times (1/4 TEAC 4-track, then a 1/4 tape Fostex 8 track, then a 1 inch Tascam 16 track, then over to ADAT), I am delighted to know that I probably won't have to change formats again, and that it just takes new software for me to get the most current version of my "recorder", and that if I get a faster computer in years to come, my old "recorder" won't have to be replaced, nor will my "tapes" become instantly useless.

 

I still have one ADAT left in my system, but it's just to be able to transfer tracks in and out of the computer from older projects.

 

Did I mention that plug-ins just RULE?

 

dB

[Anderton]

I'm also a fan of computer-based systems. I am a bit of a technie, though, and don't have problems with PC-based systems. The Mac remains an excellent choice, but if you want to avoid problems, go completely with one company's products -- e.g., MOTU software and interface, or Steinberg Cubase with their interface, etc.

 

I have mixed feelings about ADAT. It's a great format but getting long in the tooth. The suggestion about keeping a used machine around for tape transfers is excellent; think of ADAT as a peripheral rather than your main recording device. And if you are desperate for an extra 8 tracks, sync it up and go!

 

But just to confuse you even further...Emu makes a system called PARIS, a cross-platform hard disk recording system. It's very much the Pro Tools model (software/hardware combination), but has not had anywhere near the commercial success. But it runs on a Mac (i.e., less technical issues in general than PC although not as capable in some ways), and the environment will be very familiar to anyone who used standard recorders and mixers. The main attraction compared to the MOTU/Steinberg/Emagic approach is that it comes with a hardware controller with real faders, making it MUCH easier to mix and such compared to using a mouse. I have a PARIS system and use it mostly for recording acoustic projects, because it sounds really, really, good. It's also a fraction of the cost of Pro Tools. I think it's a great system, highly expandable, runs plug-ins, etc. -- but it's very underrated by the industry at large, because Ensoniq (the company that gave birth to it) wasn't in a position to give it a decent push. Having Emu take it over is a good sign, but they lost a year while re-designing the chips used in the product.

 

It is a fine system, but there is a caveat. I belive Emu is committed to it, but there's always the chance that if it doesn't catch fire, they'll drop it. You know Digidesign, MOTU, etc. will be around (well, hopefully).

 

Your all-in-one machine is a great sketchpad and portable recorder, but ultimately, it will not be as flexible as a computer-based system.

 

Now that you've been presented with a variety of options, I suggest you go to some stores and try them out to see which feels more comfortable. No system will make you happy if you don't have good chemsitry with it!

[Guest]

Craig,

 

> Emu makes a system called PARIS ... It's very much the Pro Tools model...<

 

I have a big problem with proprietary systems like ProTools and Paris. Just a few years ago when computers were slower add-on hardware made sense, to off-load the computing chores from the host CPU. But today with fast computers and plug-ins that do anything you could imagine, I can't see taking the risk to invest in one company's product.

 

Plus, products do get improved, and to upgrade a hardware box means you toss the old one and buy a new one. With a computer-based system you upgrade the computer and everything gets faster. And you can upgrade the software individually as needed too.

 

--Ethan

[Anderton]

>>I have a big problem with proprietary systems like ProTools and Paris. Just a few years ago when computers were slower add-on hardware made sense, to off-load the computing chores from the host CPU. But today with fast computers and plug-ins that do anything you could imagine, I can't see taking the risk to invest in one company's product.<<

 

But the original question expressed concern about the "technie" nature of computer-based systems. I think that has become more, not less, of an issue because host-based systems make such demands on a computer that the motherboard, drives, OS software, even the video card become crucial. Also, there was apparently a certain comfort level with a mixer-based environment, and both Pro Tools and PARIS make a big deal of having a hardware interface.

 

A few more comments on PARIS: You're going to have to buy a sound card anyway, and PARIS has good-sounding hardware. The DSP handles bread-and-butter effects, but as the system also runs VST plug-ins, you can always burn up your CPU having big fun . The system is easy to get up and running because the software and hardware are matched (of course -- they better be!), and it's very easy to use. All these characteristics are potentially important to someone considering a more ADAT/mixer-type setup.

[lrbreez]

First you will need an ADAT since that is what you collaborators have (I've used ADATs for years and had very no problems). A digital mixer like O2r, DA7--there are also smaller digital mixers by Yamaha and Tascam but I'm not familiar with them. Tascam has a new console called a M24 which has 1 ADAT I/O on it and a lot of goodies like Antares mic modeller built in. If you need something to edit you can use a Tascam MX-2424 track on it, edit and then transfer to the ADAT. And most of all either a Bass POD or Bass POD Pro to run your bass through to you mixer.

 

Since you have a Roland 168O why not just use that with a Bass POD for tracking and editing and then transfer the tracks to an ADAT using Roland's ADAT interface. It would save you $$$$. All you would need is the Bass POD and an ADAT.

Buddy

[lrbreez]

Also check the Yamaha aw4416. Its basically like an O2r witha built-in 16 track hard disk recorder. I think you can get an ADAT card with it. Record your tracks on it, edit and then transfer your tracks to ADAT. I think the Yamaha aw4416 goes for $35OO to 4OOO.

Buddy

[Guest]

Craig,

 

> But the original question expressed concern about the "technie" nature of computer-based systems. I think that has become more, not less, of an issue because host-based systems make such demands on a computer that the motherboard, drives, OS software, even the video card become crucial.<

 

Those are all good points. But it seems to me that Paris or ProTools running on a computer is still going to have the exact same issues as SAWPlus (what I use) or Vegas or Cakewalk. You still have to know how to remove Office's Find Fast and other background programs, set the hard drives to use DMA, and perform all the other various optimizations. Or am I missing something?

 

Just as with recording studios of 20 years ago, your gear needs to be maintained by someone who knows how to do that. Back then, if you didn't know how to align tape decks or fix a dead power supply in your console, you had to hire someone who did. I guess not much has changed in 20 years after all! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Even getting a Mac is no guarantee of an easy time of it. It seems like the recent editorials in ALL of the audio mags have been about heartaches with Macs. My computer NEVER crashes, and I do audio processing and editing all day long.

 

> A few more comments on PARIS: You're going to have to buy a sound card anyway, and PARIS has good-sounding hardware.<

 

For sure Paris sounds good. But Paris runs only on its own hardware, right? As opposed to DAW programs that run with any hardware. (Or has that changed too, like ProTools recently?) If my computer dies tomorrow in a fiery explosion http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I can go to OfficeMax and get a new one, then install SoundForge and SAW and be working again in an hour or two.

 

--Ethan