Digital through an analog tape deck on mixdown

[QE3]

Can anyone refer me back to Craig's original posting on running digital though an analog tape deck and back into a DAW for that tape saturation sound. I've used the search engine multiple times on this one, I get posts refering to it but I can never find the original

[QE3]

Anyone? someone must have it referenced or remember how they searched for it successfully?

[Philip OKeefe]

I've posted about that several times. It's one of the best techniques I've ever seen anyone suggest - and Craig's the MAN for bringing it to our attention. :thu: The way you do it is to track to digital as normal. Once that's done, route out from the digital deck and into a 3 head analog deck. Set the analog deck for monitoring off the PLAYBACK head. Route the analog deck's output back into the digital deck, and set the digital deck (or DAW) to record on to a new set of track(s). Put the analog deck into record and press play. Then start recording / playback on the digital deck. The audio passes OUT of the digital deck, and into the analog deck's record head, where it gets "printed" to tape. A few milliseconds later, that section of the tape that was just recorded hits the playback head, where the audio goes out and then back into NEW TRACKS on the digital machine... but that's after "passing through" the analog machine and being recorded to tape - and then played back a few ms. later. You'll have to then offset the tracks in the digital machine to get them "time aligned" again. The exact amount will depend on the physical distance between the record and playback heads on your analog deck, as well as the tape speed. At 15 IPS on my Otari, the delay is about 73 ms.

[soapbox]

[b]Phil[/b], inquiring minds want to know: • Assuming that things were tracked hot enough to digital media, do you adjust track levels separately to determine how hot each track will then go to analog or go with flat levels all around? • If you adjust track levels, do you route the signals through an external analog mixer after DAW and before tape; or do you set the levels within the DAW? • During the transfer, do you follow the tradition of tracking some instruments, like drums for example, to analog hotter than others? • Do you go to analog with all tracks or with a selected few? • Do you use Dolby SR noise reduction or go without? Thanks, Geoff P.S. While I'm curious as to what Phil does, I'd also be happy for others to chime in. After all, analog tracking is a dying art form. It would be good to read a variety of approaches.

[KenElevenShadows]

I track to analog (Akai MG1214; I do also have Digi001). In the last year, I've gotten two strange looks when I've told musicians that I track on analog: "Why do you use analog?", asked one. Anyway, I'd also be interested in hearing replies from Soapbox's last post.

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by soapbox: [b][b]Phil[/b], inquiring minds want to know: • Assuming that things were tracked hot enough to digital media, do you adjust track levels separately to determine how hot each track will then go to analog or go with flat levels all around?[/b] One of the best things about this technique is that it allows you to experiment with how hard you're going to "slam" the tape after the fact, and still have your original, pristine recording safe and sound. If you hit it too hard, just do another pass. Not hard enough? Try it again with hotter levels to tape. You can even experiment with different tape formulations, N/R, deck setups etc. [b]• If you adjust track levels, do you route the signals through an external analog mixer after DAW and before tape; or do you set the levels within the DAW?[/b] That would depend on your individual setup. I don't think there's any hard and fast rules. I'd suggest trying different methods and see what works best for you. Experiment! Okay, I have an Otari MX5050 IIB, and I can control levels from the front panel - both "in" and "out". It works fine for me. But adjusting levels at the DAW, or using an outboard mixer may work fine for you. [b]• During the transfer, do you follow the tradition of tracking some instruments, like drums for example, to analog hotter than others?[/b] I use whatever levels sound best to me for the particular sound that I'm after. Normally, that does indeed mean that drums are usually hitting pretty hard. Again though, the levels vary depending on how much tape compression I feel is appropriate for the instrument and song in question. The nice thing about doing things this way, as opposed to just tracking to analog and dumping into digital to begin with is that you can always change things later if you want more or less. [b]• Do you go to analog with all tracks or with a selected few?[/b] I'd very rarely do all the tracks, and frequently don't run ANY tracks through an analog deck. It just depends. Instruments I would be more likely to use this one would include drums (but not normally overheads - but that's just me), bass, B3's, distorted guitars and sometimes horn section stuff. Acoustic guitars and vocals I'd normally avoid, although sometimes I'll still use an analog deck for "real" (no pun intended) ADT on vocals. [b]• Do you use Dolby SR noise reduction or go without?[/b] I avoid N/R whenever possible. If I'd really NEED N/R, I'd probably avoid the analog "pass through" to begin with. But if noise reduction HAS to be used on something, IMO, nothing beats Dolby SR. [/quote]

[soapbox]

[b]Phil[/b], you made several good points that demonstrate how nice it is to have the luxury of trial and error by using analog tape purely as an effect. I don't know many people who work this way, but it sounds intriguing! Thanks, Phil, for taking the time to answer my individual questions. :thu: Best, Geoff

[Philip OKeefe]

Geoff - my pleasure! You're correct - most people that I know either don't use analog at all, or use only analog or hit the analog deck first and then go into the DAW. But to me, the method I described above makes a lot of sense precisely because it does offer so many creative possibilities and so much control. I really wish I could take credit for any this at all, but all of these points were made quite some time ago by Craig in a magazine article... and to be honest, I'm not sure if it was his idea originally or not. But even if it wasn't his original idea, he brought it to the attention of a much wider "audience" and he deserves kudos for that. :thu: I'll see if I can search for some of the other threads where we've discussed this technique and I'll post them if I am successful at finding them.

[QE3]

Is this something that I could do effectively with a Tascam 22-2 2-track 15ips tape deck? It only has unbalanced RCA ins and outs and the outputs from my DAW via a Panasonic DA7 board are all balanced XLR or TRS. Any advice on how to minimize signal loss or interference? Going back into the DAW via the DA7 shouldn't be a problem, the board can accept unbalanced 1/4" inputs. Any suggestions on custom making adapter cables etc?

[Philip OKeefe]

Yes, with the proper adapters for the cables, the Tascam 22-2 should work just fine, since it is a 3 head, 15 ips recorder and has the capability to record, while simultaneously monitoring off of the playback head. My only concern would be the operating levels - the Tascam 22-2 runs at -10 dB. I am not sure about the DA7... does it output at +4? If so, you might be hitting the 22-2 REALLY hard... but I'm sure you could attenuate the signal coming out of the DA7 to the proper levels. I'd use the TRS outputs, with adapters to RCA, and keep the cable lengths as short as possible.