matt_dup4 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 our keyboard player has songs he plays with arpegio. the drummer needs to play in perfect time to keep in sync and make it sound good. needless to say, in a live situation, the drummer can'T hear that arpegio part crystal clear every time. if any one does this live... how do you do it? i know you need some type of click for the drummer to play to through headphones, but then how would that sinc perfectly to the keys? please help... thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.claytoys.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I do the exact same thing with my band. We play a sort of hybrid of electronic/industrial/goth metal, hence, we have a lot of samples, ambient keyboards, and arpeggios in our music. There's so much going on that it is impossible for our keyboard player to duplicate everything in realtime live on stage, and besides, as you have noted in your case, you have to somehow make it so the band stays in sync with all of it. So here's how we do it.... All of the arpeggios and samples, along with some background vocals, are pre-recorded to a portable digital recorder. In our case it's a Foxtex 8-track. During live shows, we run the outputs of the digital recorder to the P.A. and it gets mixed in with the rest of the band... as if it is another keyboard. Then our keyboard player is free to play his other parts live without having to worry about the arpeggios. Here's how we stay in time with it. On the digital recorder, all of the pre-recorded parts are linked to a midi click track, which is generated internally by the digital recorder. The click is on it's own seperate track. Say... track 1 is the midi click, and tracks 2-8 are used for samples, arpeggios, etc. As I mentioned earlier, we run the main outputs of the digital recorder to the P.A, however, for obvious reasons, we don't want the click to be heard by the audience through the P.A. So what we do is mute the click track so you don't hear it through the P.A. Since it's a midi signal, the click is still there, you just can't hear it. Then, in order to generate an audible click that only I can hear, I connect the midi output from the digital recorder to the midi input of an Alesis SR-16 drum machine. The SR-16 then chases and locks on to the midi click signal from the digital recorder and generates it's own audible click which I can monitor seperately from the main output of the digital recorder. I connect the audio output of the SR-16 to a small Behringer 4-channel mixer. I also connect the headphone out from the digital recorder to the mixer as well. Then I connect my in-ear monitors to the headphone jack on the mixer, which allows me to monitor the audio output of the digital recorder, as well as the click, and have the ability to mix the relative volume of the click and digital recorder to my preference. The in-ear monitors are nice because they are inconspicuous to the audience, and they help prevent the stage volume from drowning out the click. On stage, I have the entire rig (Fostex digital recorder, Alesis R-16, and Behringer mixer) set up right next to me behind my drum kit. All I have to do is reach over to the digital recorder, select the next song from the menu and queue it up, then press play and we're in business. When that song ends, I press stop on the recorder, queue up the next song, and press play... and off we go again. When you select a song on the digital recorder, it queues up instantly. In fact, from the time a song ends until I am ready to start the next song, it's only about ten seconds. On the recorder, we have each song mapped out so that there are eight clicks before the song actually starts. So when I press play, the click track starts. Clicks 1-4 are a countdown for me, then I give the rest of the band a four-count along with clicks 5-8... (usually stick clicks or hihat clicks), then the song starts. Some of our songs have pre-recorded elements from beginning to end... some only have a small part in the middle. It varies. It doesn't matter though, because as long I start in the right spot and stay with the click throughout the song, the samples will always occur at precisely the right moment, and in time, with the song. The rest of the band doesn't need to hear the click. Being the drummer, I follow the click, and the band just follows me. Now on a couple of our songs, we may have a few small parts here and there that the drums might drop out for a moment. Obviously, I need to keep the rest of the band in time with the click. To work around this, I either continue to click quarter notes on the hihat or continue to play quarter notes on the kick drum, so that the band can stay in time with me. I'm not saying this is the best way to do this. In fact there are probably better ways to accomplish all of this, but this setup just works for us, and given the budget we had to work with, it was relatively inexpensive to acquire all of the elements to make it work. I have another drummer friend in another band and they also do something similar... however his rig is a little different. If I recall, they use an outboard sequencer to trigger a rack mount synth and a sampler in realtime. Their rack mount synth can be configured to provide multiple outputs, so they can route the audio portion to the P.A. and the click track (internally generated by the synth), to a separate output to be monitored through in-ear monitors. One other thing I should mention... If your drummer is not accustomed to playing with a click, it will take some time for him to get comfortable with it. I played for almost 18 years and never used a click until I joined this band. At first it was very awkward because I was trying to concentrate on the click and not concentrating on my playing. As a result, I didn't feel comfortable, and my playing suffered. Eventually I got used to it and it has become like second nature. I can sort of subconsiously lock into the click and stay in sync with it, without having to over-concentrate on it, as if I'm on autopilot. Anyway, I hope that was helpful in some way. If you have additional questions I'll be happy to talk to you about it and provide you more specific information about how I set it all up. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_dup4 Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 thanks that's a good idea... i'll print this page and let the guys in the band check it out. i also have a fostex digital... vf16. i'd like to find out more about your buddy's system, my keyboard player mentioned something like that but wasn't real sure how it could all work. thanks, matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 We have a Fostex VF08, which I would imagine functions very similar to your VF16. So if you did go that route, all you'd need to get is a midi-capable sampler or drum machine, and a small cheap mixer. The SR-16 is widely available and you could probably find one used on EBAY for next to nothing. I'd imagine any similar product, like maybe the Boss Dr. Rhythm, might work just as well. The Behringer mixers start around $60 bucks. Then get a few cables and some ear buds and your up and running. I'll see if I can get more info from that other guy about his band's setup... stay tuned.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_dup4 Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 every time i hear the word "midi" i go stupid. never used it, don't know anything about it. thanks for the info though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Midi is sorta tricky at first, but once you figure it out, it's not that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 A better alternative than trying to play to the click is to have the drummer generate it. MIDI clocks can be adjusted to real-time playing; most systems have 'tap-tempo' capability nowadays. It's better to have a separate trigger pad for this than to trigger from a drum. Simply have the trigger pad produce a sound you want (usually a snare sound) as you hit it, and have it determine tempo for your sequenced or prerecorded midi segments. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_dup4 Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 if a trigger sets the tempo and generates the arpeggiated key sounds, and you have it hooked up to the snare, what does it do when the snare is involved in a drum roll or some type of fill? snare isn't always the exact "click" as in 4 4 time. c what i mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 That's exactly why you use a separate trigger for sending midi clocks. Here's how it works: a) You start the sequence. It will play by itself at its original tempo if you never hit the trigger to send clock signals. b) Say you hit the trigger every 2 & 4. It will adjust the tempo to your tempo... and it will continue, even if you stop hitting the trigger! It will continue at whatever tempo you last set. And when you begin hitting the trigger again, it will readjust to your tempo. This allows you to do a buzz roll on the snare drum (or even play an extended solo over the sequence), then go back to hitting the trigger when you're ready. In rock music, you'd likely set the trigger to produce a snare sound when hit on 2 & 4.. In samba, you may want to have it produce a clave sound on 1,2,3,&4, or perhaps a cowbell sound..... I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_dup4 Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 what about a part in the song where the arpeggiated part stops and then picks back up? how do you get it to stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.