Super 8 Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I think the laser sensing idea is pretty cool. I wouldn't have thought of that one. I'll add an idea. Pretty simple actually; offer a rackmout version. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted November 7, 2003 Author Share Posted November 7, 2003 I wonder if Roland and Yami and the rest are listening? I'll bet they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Nah! Nobody listens to us around here. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted November 7, 2003 Author Share Posted November 7, 2003 I think they do. The better ones anyway. I have seen some new products come out where they said they incorporated all the suggestions they found from the users on the forums. What better way to improve, modify, update, or come up with design parameters than to ask the user-base what they would like to see? It's a smart move for the equipment makers to periodically search the forums for cool ideas. I've been thinking, always a dangerous proposition, maybe we could make some suggestions of how to improve things on an itemized list sort of like this: 1) Brain 2) Ride Cymbal 3) Crash Cymbal 4) Hi-hats 5) Snare Drum 6) Tom-Toms 7) Floor Toms 8) Hardware 9) Moving Cases For example, if we were talking about making improvements to electronic ride cymbals, you could talk about the feel, the materials used, and whether more triggers should be added to it. But I think some kind or orderly breakdown would make it easier for the maker's researchers to complie a list of improvements that the user community demands. I hope this will be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tld Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 We're using a Ddrum 3 with newer Ddrum cast pads. The trigger speed is amazing. Ddrum has always advertized 3 millisecond trigger response, and I was able to verify that. I tried recording the audio from the Ddrum into PT while recording the stick noise from the head with a mic at the same time. Just about exactly 3 milliseconds difference. I did the same test with an Alesis DM Pro and it was 9 milliseconds. I don't know how the Roland or anything else would compare. Of course, as soon as you use the brains midi out to trigger something external, you'll be introducing midi delay which will be much more than that. Another big difference between a brains internal operation and midi is that it can have many more steps of resolution than the midi velocity of 0-127. The Ddrum has 1000 I believe...you can actually get away with those real quiet buzz rolls. Tom http://www.digitalaudiorock.com The Protools Plugin Preset Co-op Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Ok, but what if they used something faster than Midi? Would you like that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiRoller Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 If there aren't enough forums in your diet, check out http://www.vdrums.com/forum/. Tons of info on e drums. my band: Mission 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Thanks for the cool link, however, I thought we were talking about all the electronic drums and not just Roland's V-Drums and coming up with specific ideas for improvements that might apply to any or all of the makes. If you were designing a brand new set of electronic drums, what would you have that was new and better than past versions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by tld: I tried recording the audio from the Ddrum into PT while recording the stick noise from the head with a mic at the same time. Just about exactly 3 milliseconds difference. I did the same test with an Alesis DM Pro and it was 9 milliseconds. Dude, I'm going to challenge that. I'm willing to bet there is a bigger issue with Protools and/or your computer, or even room reflections, than with MIDI. There is absolutely no way you can tell the difference of a few milliseconds. I had to test this for myself just to see if I'm missing out on something. I just plugged in my Zendrum and MIDIed it up to a Roland TD-7. Nothing.... The delay is like non-existant. I mean, I'm going by my ears. I am sure I could measure something with some equipment, but that isn't musical. The question is; is there a NOTICIBLE difference..... a delay..... a drag, in the timing? I'm not seeing it at all. I think this is a non-issue. And the thing is, I can just hear all of these drummers saying "Oh, you can't play drums with MIDI because of the delay -it throws the groove off." If your groove is off, it's NOT because of MIDI, it's because you aren't playing the groove correctly. Drummers understandibly freakout over this kind of stuff. But honestly, there is nothing to freak out over. The only thing I can think of that might be an issue is if you are throwing a TON of MIDI events at once. I don't think a drummer is capable of choking up the MIDI stream. If you want to talk about timing delays, go play a MIDI guitar! Now they have got that delay down quite a bit. I don't know what the numbers are. But you have to think about EVERYTHING that has to occure in order to get a sound. The pitch to MIDI converter has to count the beats in the string, assign a note value and velocity, and send it to the synth module. That's a LOT of processing. Now if they've got that down to where you can barely notice it, what makes you think that something as simple as MIDI drums are going to be noticeible at all? I have a feeling this could turn into an interesting debate/discussion... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tld Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Super 8: Originally posted by tld: I tried recording the audio from the Ddrum into PT while recording the stick noise from the head with a mic at the same time. Just about exactly 3 milliseconds difference. I did the same test with an Alesis DM Pro and it was 9 milliseconds. Dude, I'm going to challenge that. I'm willing to bet there is a bigger issue with Protools and/or your computer, or even room reflections, than with MIDI. There is absolutely no way you can tell the difference of a few milliseconds.I was simply pointing out that the trigger speed of the DDrum is very good...and it certainly helps to not be adding trigger response delay to the existing midi delay. I'm not sure where you read into my post that I thought it would make or break your playing. Actually, I tend to agree with your take on it. Many drummers claim they can feel a difference with a 5 ms delay. Given that you get more delay by being 10 feet away from the bass players amp, somehow that just doesn't seem right By the way, speaking of midi guitar...I picked up a used Axon guitar to midi converter some time back. Frankly I don't use it as much as I thought I would...but it really is pretty amazing. They manage to determine the note at the top of the first sine wave rather than sampling sever of them. It still responds faster on high notes than low, but it's usually inside of the 20-40 ms range. Fast enough to be downright creepy...pretty damn cool. Tom http://www.digitalaudiorock.com The Protools Plugin Preset Co-op Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 yeah, midi is probably not a problem, consider that keyboard players have been using it for 20 or 25 years. 10 or more events at once with no noticable delay. But I'm still hoping some of you will make some suggestions for improving electronic drums in general. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by tld: I'm not sure where you read into my post that I thought it would make or break your playing.If you'll look further back in this thread there was some discussion about MIDI timing delays. I suppose I was lumping your post in with them. Sorry 'bout that. Regarding MIDI guitar: I haven't played the Axiom, but I have a Roland GI-10 setup. It works well enough. It lets you thin out the MIDI stream a bit to increase the speed. I recall reading a review about a Yamaha setup that was REALLY fast. But I guess that's all a bit off-topic. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Speers Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 "10 or more events at once with no noticable delay." ? -Best case scenario, One note: 3 ms into the computer. Each additional simultaneous note:about another 0.8 ms. It's not a huge problem for keyboardists, though, for three reasons: 1: Since keyboardists are used to the note on a REAL keyboard to not sound until they hit the bottom of the keybed, their technique is already developed with compensation applied. 2: You never really WOULD hit ten notes at exactly the same time. 3: A typical keyboard part doesn't have to be as tight as drums and percussion. When playing drum parts on keys, almost everyone quantizes afterward. they pretty much have to, even if they have great timing, because of the midi delay and slop (not to mention playback delay inherent in the DAW, but that's a different subject altogether.) One of the things that makes a magical rythm section is the way they learn to groove together, and part of that is how they compensate for the physical distance between themselves. One of the reasons that there are so few great session-players is because, once the cans are on, that compensation must be thrown out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Allan Speers: When playing drum parts on keys, almost everyone quantizes afterward. they pretty much have to, even if they have great timing, because of the midi delay and slop Nobody plays drums well from a keyboard. For one thing, the drums will be delayed do to the fact that the key has to be pressed all the way down before it makes a sound. That's not MIDI delay, that's physics. If I were to put up a really in-the-pocket groove, and then I shifted the hats by 3 ms, and you couldn't immediately tell me that something was off, I'd tell you to find another line of work. I could go on and on... Sub-millisecond timing is critical.Then an awful lot of people would be out of work I guess. I'm sorry, but that's just nonesense. Not only is it not critical, it's not even noticeable. I've already stated my feelings about this, so there is no reason to repeat myself. And it really doesn't matter much to me. I've been using MIDI practically since it's inception in addition to acoustic instruments. If it didn't work, I'd know about it. But what concerns me are the other drummers out there who could be taking advantage of the technology, but are frightened off because people go on about a 3 or 9 millisecond lag. It's just silly. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Speers Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Well, we just dissagree. what can you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zele Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 We have been performing almost 100% of our drums on a keyboard or pads--------never had a problem with any type of delay!! Maybe because I have been a drummer since 1962...I play a little tighter?? Seriously I have been playing all the percussion in the studio , since '85, with keys (Roland, Emu, Akai ,Korg, Yamaha, & Kurzweils) and pads (Roland, FatKat, combinations therein) Never a problem (quantize about 12% of the time) Usually play the pads for a kick/snare groove ~~~ while we track with the musican ~~~ then we record the remaining ....crashes--hats---rides--and the rest of the percussion.... on seperate tracks of the keyboards' sequencer ^^^^^^^^^^ C Jo Go Crystal Studios http://fp2k.redshift.com/cjogo/recording_studio.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Allan Speers: Well, we just dissagree. what can you do? Yeah, that's fine. It'd be a pretty boring world if everybody thought alike. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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