Recording heads?

[Lee Flier]

Tim,

 

You did mention your room is less than perfect. What's bad about it? How big is it, what kind of treatment on the walls, floor and ceilings? Etc.

 

I do understand the predicament you're in (have had to deal with bad rooms and low budget gear a lot!) but I think there may be some inexpensive ways to mitigate your room problems. In the long run that would probably be better than using a load of close mics and getting the sound in the mix. A lot of people did that in the 70's and got some great drum sounds, but that's only because they had some very high dollar mics, big consoles and expensive outboard processing gear. My experience with that approach on cheap gear has been less than great, to say the least.

 

On the other hand, I've been able to get very good drum sounds by starting with a good source (good kit, heads, tuning, etc.), dealing with room problems the best I can in various ways, and having at it with a few mics.

[Tedly Nightshade]

On the other hand, I've been able to get very good drum sounds by starting with a good source (good kit, heads, tuning, etc.), dealing with room problems the best I can in various ways, and having at it with a few mics.

You didn't mention the fantastic drummer... that's gotta help!

 

It's true, Lee is "the man" for cheap mics and a do-it-all digital box in the basement. I've heard it, and it is good!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

You didn't mention the fantastic drummer... that's gotta help!

Well, the trouble with that is that I can't seem to mention our wonderful drummer without taking up a WHOLE lot of bandwidth by waxing rhapsodic about him for several pages.

 

But yes, that helps a LOT, of course.

[Bugsy34]

Sorry for the delay in responding, had to leave town on an emergency issue.

Hope everything is OK. And thanks for replying.

 

The RCs are very heavy thick shelled drums with good edges and simple coated ambassadors top and bottom also work real well, but they may have more tone to them them and less stick attack sound. One problem with 2 plies is they tend to stretch out and keeping them tuned low w/o buzzing becomes hard over time due to uneven stretch between the two layers. You don;t go through them as easy, but over time, your pitch will have to raise. Single ply heads are more forgiving in that respect.

I must have the only RC kit that only has top heads. At least I was told (by the serial #s) by a drum shop that they were indeed RCs. Maybe I should call Yamaha and verify this.

 

I did notice (with the oil filled pinstripes) that they seemed to stretch unevenly between layers, and start to buzz. (especially after a few years- DUH!)

 

I'm pretty happy with the tones I'm getting with the Evens for now, and once they start to die down a little I will try Ambassador Suede series.

 

BTW, the Drum Tuning Bible is great, learned a few things even after playing all these years. I will pass on that link to others who (like me), thought they knew it all. LOL

 

Lee,

 

You did mention your room is less than perfect. What's bad about it? How big is it, what kind of treatment on the walls, floor and ceilings? Etc.

7' ceilings to start off, (ceilings and walls are drywall, floor is thin carpet) the room is pretty dead as the wall to the control room is covered in accoustic tile, (like spattered cement)the area where the drums are is actually only big enough for the drums, and almost [ shaped. the room goes out about 3 feet in front of the drums on one side, and about 14 feet on the other. This almost splits the drums in half, as far as miking with a room mic as half of the sound is boucnig right back to the drums. I was really limited on space and didn't plan on micing drums when I built it.

Then I thought it wouldn't be a problem, as long as I close miced it anyways, so here I am. I really haven't had time yet to even try to get a decend sound, as I am always so busy. I bought a Roland VM7100 to use as a submixer for the drums, but It is not working out at all (PIECE OF CRAP!), unfortunately the layout of the board is really confusing and not user friendly at all. So, I am currently looking to pick up another board (I think Analog this time) to use in its place.

 

Once I get that far, I will start working on tracking the drums, and see where the problems lie.

 

What I like in a drum sound, I think , is very differant than what you have on your website.

 

I am not, nor ever was a fan of the Beatles, Yardbirds, Rolling Stones, ect. Nothing personal, other than taste, but being a drummer (the way I learned) I listened very close to the drums in songs. I like the songs (bands) that have very precise drumming, and drum tones. ie. Steely Dan, GRP, Dream Theature, Queensryche, Kansas, ect.

 

I recently purchased Steve Smith's video on drum technique/ history of the US beat. Very good stuff, but also noted is the fact that each drum is mic'd, along with 2 ovhds. ect. much like *I want to do. I am sure they used high end gear, and I know the room was premium, but they have the sound I want. So, this is the direction I am working for.

 

To critique, What The? , from my point, considering how I want my drums to sound.

 

I would say your style/sound is too 60'ish, not enough definition between toms, the snare is not crisp, almost to the point of being lost. Hats sound great, the rest of the cymbals are a little weak for my taste. It is , however, perfect for that style of music.

I think the drums should sell the song, after all, it is the beat that gets you up and moving, I like my drums out front in the mix, ie. ACDC, Pat Benetar. This is only my personal taste and oppinion, the style of music I like.

 

I am sure I have a huge learning curve ahead of me, and sure apreciate all of your input.

 

Have you recorded anything a little more modern, ie. Linkin Park, 3 Doors Down, ect., I would be very interested to hear something a little closer to what I'm after, and how it was recorded.

 

Also, Ted had a good suggestion in trying to find another location to track the drums, if I can't get what I'm looking for with the multiple mics.

 

Thanks Again

 

Tim

[Tedly Nightshade]

A lot of times the approach is to get the whole kit with the overheads, and add just enough spot mics wherever necessary to give the kind of definition you're talking about. Phase is critical as always- when it's happening right, you can just add a smidgen of snare or tom or whatever and it gives the presence and clarity you're after. Some great depth is achievable when using tiny, itsy bits of spot mics, and the overheads sufficiently distant.

 

Of course that's back to the nice room again. Lacking that, a tiny itsy teeny weeny bit of distant room mic can help pull your close mics into dimension.

 

Good luck!

[Bugsy34]

A lot of times the approach is to get the whole kit with the overheads, and add just enough spot mics wherever necessary to give the kind of definition you're talking about. Phase is critical as always- when it's happening right, you can just add a smidgen of snare or tom or whatever and it gives the presence and clarity you're after. Some great depth is achievable when using tiny, itsy bits of spot mics, and the overheads sufficiently distant.

 

Of course that's back to the nice room again. Lacking that, a tiny itsy teeny weeny bit of distant room mic can help pull your close mics into dimension

This sounds more like what I think I'm doing.

 

Track them full and use them sparingly

[Rod Gervais]

Personally i prefer the remo heads.... pinstripped on the toms - ambasadors for the resonator heads (although i know you do not have bottom heads)

 

Back in the 70's - when i played minus bottoms - i still used the remos..... and i have tried the evans - but the remos give me what i want.

 

That having been said - tis nice to meet you all - P Sound - if you're the author of the "Bible" - we've met before....... cheers.. and Lee - you are a goddess.. anyone who hates drum machines is perfect in my book.

 

Rod

[Lee Flier]

Tim,

 

When you said you had a 12 piece drum kit I already figured out pretty quickly that we have very different musical tastes. I've still been willing to make suggestions, because yes, I've recorded the kind of stuff you're talking about. It should also be pointed out that the kit and the drummer are what gets you 90% of the way there. I could have recorded a different drummer on a different kit in the same room with the same gear as you heard on my web site, and it would sound totally different.

 

With that said... If you want a very tight focused drum sound I would say you've GOT to get some treatment in your room, or quite possibly all you need to do is build some gobos and put them around the kit pretty tightly. Then you can close mic everything without running into so many phase problems from reflections. That's the way all those 70's records were done. They also used a lot of tape and muffling on the drums to further tighten the sound.

 

I can tell you right now though, if it's the AC/DC kind of sound you're after, you'll have a very hard time getting that without a good room and high ceilings. You also describe a pretty wide range of sounds in what you like, though. Most of the modern bands aka Linkin Park and 3 Doors Down use a lot of samples in their drum tracks, whether they just trigger the samples or blend them in with the real signal. If you want to go that route, that would be the easiest obviously, but you can experiment with getting that really tight 70's Steely Dan type thing by using gobos and close miking. Obviously a lot of EQ and compression was used on that stuff and it was very high quality gear; you may or may not be happy with what you can get using cheaper stuff.

 

Good luck, anyhow.

[Bugsy34]

Thanks Lee,

 

The walls around the kit are pretty close, so I shouldn't have to build the gobos, except right in front of the kit, maybe just treat the walls.

 

Mackie has a plugin for the digital 8 bus that should help with the phase issues, I will check if anyone has used it yet and what their thoughts on it are. If that doesn't help, Ted has made referance to a box called IBP by Little Labs in a few of his posts, I might check that out.

 

I am trying to keep in mind that not all drummers, or bands for that matter, are going to want the same sound that I like, and given the circumstances, I will start looking for another place to track drums,(more of a live room), if and when the need comes up.

 

The Massenburg Plug in is on my list also, as I haven't been real impressed with the EQs on the d8b, although the V5 update is much better than the original version.

 

Thanks again, I do appreciate your time and expertise.

 

Tim

[DrummerCafe]

I personally would not recommend any type of head that has a "dry" nature to it's sound ... simply because the YAMAHA Recording Customs (I own one of these sets as well) already sound dry.

 

It all comes down to the type of sound you want, but if you've not used a single ply clear head on your tom toms ... well, I would highly recommend that you try them.

 

For the batter side:

Aquarian Classic Clear

Evans G1

Remo Ambassador

 

You could use the same thing on the resonant side if you wanted to, but you might want to go with a thinner head instead.

 

For the resonant side:

Aquarian Hi-Frequency

Evans Resonant

Remo Diplomat

 

Again, it all depends on the sound you want, but I would encourage you to go with something that is very wide open; as wide as you can go ... a clear, single ply is the drumhead to try. Especially since you've not changed heads in ten years ... you need to see just how big and full those drums can sound ... IMO.