mstreck Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Does anyone have any advice as to how we can mic a small drum kit using only two mic inputs? We have eight inputs on our board and six are in use. (Mackie 808M Powered Mixer) We usually don't need to mic the drums so this is new to us. Should we get an additional mixer? I have to run sound while I play (guitar) so the less equipment, the better. Here's what our drummer uses:KickTom 1Tom 2SnareCrash 1Crash 2Hi-hat Thanks, Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Well, it depends on the mics you have...but you could put one facing the kick, and the other one up above the drummers' head by a foot or two, and back a bit, so the mic is kind of pointing at his head. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted December 31, 2002 Author Share Posted December 31, 2002 Originally posted by offramp: Well, it depends on the mics you have...but you could put one facing the kick, and the other one up above the drummers' head by a foot or two, and back a bit, so the mic is kind of pointing at his head.We will probably be using SM57's or SM58's. We can get a boom to do what you say (above the head). Thanks! We'll give it a try! You're a lifesaver! Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarf Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Originally posted by mstreck: Originally posted by offramp: Well, it depends on the mics you have...but you could put one facing the kick, and the other one up above the drummers' head by a foot or two, and back a bit, so the mic is kind of pointing at his head.We will probably be using SM57's or SM58's. We can get a boom to do what you say (above the head). Thanks! We'll give it a try! You're a lifesaver! MikeIf you can, try to scare up a couple of bucks for a cheap condensor mic for the overhead. The condensor will do a better job than a '57 or '58. I've used a CAD cheap condensor as an overhead and while not the worlds greatest mic it certainly did the job. -- Rob I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Yeah, you can pick up a couple of Oktava condensers for like 99 bucks apiece. If you can only afford one, use it as the overhead. Offramp is right on the money with his suggestion for overhead mic placement. I'd put the second mic 2-3 feet in front of the kick, and about even with the top of the kick or maybe a bit lower. Experiment with placement to taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted January 1, 2003 Author Share Posted January 1, 2003 Well, I talked to our drummer after we finished playing tonight and it looks like we'll be trying PZM microphones (see my thread about "Plexiglass Drum Mic"). Thanks to eveyone for your input! I take back everything I ever said about drummers... well, almost!!! Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Well good, but NO PZM's on the kick, mmkay? 57 on the kick, and a PZM in aforementioned position for overhead. BTW...make sure the damn things are tuned well. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by offramp: Well good, but NO PZM's on the kick, mmkay? 57 on the kick, and a PZM in aforementioned position for overhead. BTW...make sure the damn things are tuned well. Got it. Thanks for the info! Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Tuning hints:Find the pitch you want for each drum. Tune both heads to that pitch, so that the drum rings long and true. THEN, take the drum key and tune each bottom head about a 1/2 cent down (make very minor tweaks on each lug, but do each lug), until the drum has sort of a downward-moving pitch and doesn't take quite so long on decay. Don't make it too drastic, just enough to sound cool...you'll know it when you hear it. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeq Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 You seem to be talking about micing the drums for a gig. With only two channels to work with, you need to be thinking Triage- make sure the important stuff is getting through. I have found that in live situations you usually get plenty of cymbal anyway (in the room, bleeding onto the vocal mics, etc) If your is music groove oriented, I would try just micing kick and snare. Depending on the size of the club and the volume of band, the audience may still hear plenty of cymbals and the the toms, well... If you really need the toms to cut through, I have also sometimes had success using an omnidirectional mic like an inexpensive 635a (the PZM might work) in the "cowbell position" -sort of between the snare and the floor tom - i.e. over the drummer's right knee. That way it is equally distant from snare and both toms. I'm telling you, you will pick up cymbals anyway IMHO over the drummers head is a good place to put the mic if you are recording, but at a gig it may be too spashy, too prone to feedback and guitar and bass bleed. A lot of course will depend on volume. Do you need a lot of reinforcement or just a little. You will probably have to experiment and hear what sounds best. You may even need to adjust your solution for different clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Admittedly, the notion of a live gig slipped my mind (even though I read the 'powered mixer' part), because I haven't done one in quite a while. My apologies.Depending on the venue, most of the time, count on the snare getting into all the vocal mics, whether you like it or not. Some venues I did, I miked the stuff only to feed an fx unit for reverb, and blended just a tad bit of the wet signal into the board; what wasn't coming through the other mics was ending up as a nice sense of space in the p.a. I had success with this method more times than I can count.As far as a PZM in live applications, I've used them for OH's before, and didn't really have much problem with the mix...it's all in how you tweak it, I guess, but joeq's correct in that it stands to pose some potential problems. My approach on many occasions has been to position the PZM above the kit, a few feet above the rack toms; the mic element faced the drummer, and the back faced the band, so that the element picked up pretty much whatever was going on in the drum area and anything from the band would only be reflections from the rear wall (which in most cases for me was padded or curtained).Another approach I've tried was something gleaned from an old Rush video. Neil wore a PZM duct-taped to his sweatshirt, positioned right over his heart. The theory was that, since he tuned the drums to sound good where he sat, then the mic ought to get most of that. My experience was pretty good, but I never messed with it beyond three or four times. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 This is, indeed, for a live gig. Kind of a strange setup: We will be outdoors and ABOVE the guests on a 2nd story deck. So we're depending pretty much on our mains (sitting below us) for sound reinforcement. Poor Bob will be tucked away and no one will be able to hear him! Thanks again, guys (and girls)! I'll let you know how it turns out! Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeq Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 mstreck- the situation you describe is somewhat unusual. My negative feeling about overheads in live situations are based mostly on problems I have had with getting enough volume before feedback especially when I tried to boost some low end for a little "oomph". I don't think you will need to worry so much about feedback in this situation (at least not from your Mains) so an overhead will probably work fine. You could even boost some bass on the overhead mic if you are not getting enough Beef from the snare and the toms. hopefully you have a wireless rig or a long long cable so you can go "downstairs" and check out how the balance sounds to the audience. I like the PZM taped to the chest idea! I want to try that soon myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 joeq: It was really pretty wonderful. We used Radio Shack PZM's because A) they were affordable, and B) the were--and may still be, don't know--Crown 'seconds'. Whoever's drumming needs to wear a t-shirt underneath the sweatshirt; helps to pad from the chest. The biggest adjustment one has to make is that, as the drummer, you need to think about how you breathe, whether or not you make some sort of noise when you play (I tend to...accenting hits with 'chaa', or counting, or singing other parts). Put duct tape (gaffers' tape is better, if you can get some, and no, they're not the same) on all four sides of it to be sure. Try to face the PZM plate so that the cord goes up and around the shoulder, down the back. This is because the air rushing out of nostrils will blow across the hot zone of the mic, so pointing the open gap downward is optimum. You also need to be sure that there's no extraneous noise coming from the kit, like, say, a Ludwig Squeak King--uh, Speed King--pedal (unless you're doing some Bonham-style stuff or a dead-on version of Steely Dan's 'Black Cow') or rattling lugnuts. And efficiency of movement behind the kit becomes the order of the day. No thrashing. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Bob's not into the "PZM on the chest" thing. I've been advised to try this: place the PZM on the floor (under the throne) and use the SM-57 over the cymbals... has anyone tried and had any luck with this setup??? How does it compare to mic'ing the kick with the SM-57 and using the PZM overhead? BTW, we're using a Crown PZM Sound Grabber (an older model 12sg). Thanks, Mike Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Lot of extraneous noise to pick up with the PZM on the floor...sticks dropped, feet on pedals, chair squeaks, farting...not recommended. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstreck Posted February 2, 2003 Author Share Posted February 2, 2003 Originally posted by offramp: Lot of extraneous noise to pick up with the PZM on the floor...sticks dropped, feet on pedals, chair squeaks, farting...not recommended.Got ya! Thanks! Petting Hendrix Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked in the head by an iron boot? Of course you don't--no one does--that never happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Strat Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I have a similar question, so I thought I'd tack it on here. I want to record my drums, but I've only got two vocal mics (both Shure SM58 type), a tall mic stand for vocals, and a short stand that I use to record guitar amps. My Fostex X-14 four track only has one input for a microphone. Any ideas? I've tried using one mic on the tall stand, but the results weren't all that great. BlueStrat a.k.a. "El Guapo" ...Better fuzz through science... http://geocities.com/teleman28056/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Well, bluestrat, you're fairly hosed, unless you want to drop a few tens for one of those small Behringer two-mic mixers or a Spirit Notepad mixer (maybe they're called Folio? Dunno.). Something to get two mics bussed to one channel. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Strat Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by offramp: Something to get two mics bussed to one channel.I might have something that I can do that with already. It doesn't have individual gain or volume controls, but I've got a Radio Shack electronic reverb that I've modified to have two inputs. I had originaly intended to use it with guitar, but the signal from the guitar is too hot and causes the preamp to distort. With the two mics, It would still be a much lower input signal. I'll give it a shot. BlueStrat a.k.a. "El Guapo" ...Better fuzz through science... http://geocities.com/teleman28056/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 "It doesn't have individual gain or volume controls" Don't bother. Life's too short. Trust me on this. You will be frustrated beyond belief; 1) it's modified, 2) it was a reverb, not a mixer or preamp or whatever, and 3) it's Radio Shack...the potential aggravation factor is WAY too high at this point. Go get a cheap little Behringer mixer or Spirit Folio thingy.It's worth it. Trust me. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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