drum overhead recording help needed

[Woodgrain]

I have just a couple of questions as to recording overheads for drums. Generally what height are they at - is padding the mic and having the roll off gennerally what is done. i understand that having the OH's high would capture more room sound but can they be to close. Having the roll off on would probably lead to more headroom but is it really needed? Is there any reason to pad the mic other than if the mics are needed to be close to the kit with a hard hitter?

 

Thanks all

[Lee Flier]

Well if the overheads are too close to the kit, the cymbals generally don't sound too good. They're usually too loud and brash. If you have to put the overheads lower, try to aim toward the toms or snare and away from the cymbals.

 

And yes, using the pad and the rolloff is often a good idea with overheads. If you have to turn your preamp trim WAY down in order not to go into the red, then you should use the pad.

 

You may not need the rolloff if you are not close miking the toms, but if you are, the accumulation of all those mic signals being added together can create a lot of mud. So I often do use the rolloff. If you're using a minimal mic setup and are depending on the overheads to capture your toms, you probably would rather NOT use the rolloff.

 

Hope that helps...

 

--Lee

[Jazzman]

I agree with Lee...... If you hear overtones then your mics are too close. Mic direction is important for a clean sound. One example is on the rides. If you are hearing a sort of a feed back of another sound comming off of the cymbal then the mics are too close. You should be hearing just the initial tone of the cymbal when hit, not a rumble of a low freq sound in the background.

 

To get this right it is a good idea to have someone help move the mics around while you are playing with a set of head phones on so you can hear the difference. Takes time to do but you'll find the sweet spot and balance of the toms with the brighter cymbal sounds.

 

My whole set has mics, and my overheads are AT's that I direct in an "X" pattern behind the set and directed on the cymbals(all 10 of them). I could peak the cymbals out on the board but I know how to control the volume of the cymbals while playing, it just happens. And I know where to place the overhead mics to capture the best tone and volume that works for me.

 

Ps .....I don't use any rool-off on my drum mics.

 

Just a thought..........

 

My fade-out.......

 

Jazzman

[Duardo]

There really are no rules when it comes to this stuff...as far as height is concerned, I usually move the microphones around until they sound best. It really depends on the style of music I'm recording. I usually use a pair of omnidirectional microphones with one a few feet above the ride cymbal and one a few feet above the hats. I try to space them so that each picks up about half of the kit. One other thing I do is use a piece of twine to make sure that they're both the same distance from the snare to avoid unnecessary phase problems.

 

My main overhead microphones don't have pads or rolloffs, but even when I am using microphones with them I try to avoid them at all costs. The pad doesn't usually do anything to improve the quality of the signal...generally, the less electronics in your signal path, the better...and I'd rather have the gain way down and no pad engaged than the gain halfway up and the pad engaged. I usually only use the pad when I'm close-miking something.

 

As for the rolloff, I'll generally use the rolloff on the board instead of the one on the microphone, but I generally don't use that one either. Unless I'm going for a very close-miked sound, where the primary sound for the kick, snare and toms will come from the close microphones, I try to pick up as much of the natural sound of the kit as possible with my OH's and add a little of the close microphones only to reinforce if necessary. Of course, this doesn't work for every style of music, but with a good, well-tuned kit the results can be astounding.

 

One nice thing about using omnidirectional microphones as overheads is that you can move them closer to the drums/cymbals than a directional microphone...since there's no proximity effect you don't get nearly the bass buildup you do with cardioid microphones. Of course, since they're omnidirectional, if you have a good-sounding room and pull them back a bit you'll get a great, natural room sound.

 

Just my two cents' worth...

 

-Duardo

[Alécio Costa - Brazil]

how do you deal with overhead mics and room mics?

someone suggested on here to use a mono room mic if I had stereo oh´s.

 

My set is:

kick : sm91

snare : c418 top ; beta57 bottom

hihat : c3000B

toms : c2000B, c3000B

overs: at4050

mono room mic: c3000b cardioid or maybe switch to an at4050at omni

 

any suggestion? I am a big fan of condensers on drums. I hate sm57 dull sounds.

 

we have a great brand of drum kits here in Brazil, named ODERY. It is a mix of Master custom from Pearl with DW basic kits.

 

thanks

Nice week

[Tedly Nightshade]

You ain't heard drum overheads 'til you've tried the Recorderman method!

 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/viewtopic.php?t=706

[where02190]

Overheads are not jsut for recording the cymbals ina kit, but for capturing the entire kits sound, and typically the first mics in a mix. Often a great drum sound can be gotten with just overheads and maybe a bass drum mic.

 

When recording, I never eq anything. I choose the proper mic and preamp combination, correct tuning and placement to achieve recording the sound of the instrument as close as possible to the original. My goal is to be able to have a good sounding mix by just pushing up the faders, no eq. thsi way when I am mixing, a slight bit of eq makes each track shine, and the mix becomes very cohesive with little effort and electronics in the signal chain.

 

My favorite overhead mic is the Shure VP-88 stereo mic. It has rich, thgiht lows, and brilliant highs, and gives superb stereo imagining without the worry of phase issues, since it is s single body stereo mic. It is placed directly over the drummers head and about 18" above him.(just out of stick range)I generally combine that with a single AKGC4000B or C414B-ULS in omni for a room mic. this si generally placed at eye level to the drummer and approx 1/3 the total length of the room away from them.

 

My other method is the single overhead/stero room mic. This time I use either a single AT 4033A or C414B-ULS(In cardiod patern and same placement as the VP-88) for overhead, and two C4000B or 414's in omni for room mics, the same distance as above and creating an equalateral triangle with the drummer.

 

Both methods have worked wonders for me, giving me very accurate, realistic stereo images of the kits. Once again, I never eq or use rolloffs on these mics, or any other mics when recording.

 

As far as pads go, I, too, tend not to use them unless input levels require it.

 

Our websites Listen Page has several MP-3's for downloads (or links to artists sites that do) if anyone is interested in hearing these methods.

 

FWIW, I always track a hat mic and toms, but I rarely need the hat mic, and often do not need the toms either. Drum recording is about capturing the whole of the kit, not the sum of it's parts IMHO.

[crowbar]

Overheads..a A.T.3525 and a A.T.3527about a 6 feet off the floor pointing down...seems to work for me...

[digitaltoast]

Padding prevents distortion.

Rolling off the lows helps prevent phase problems and helps warp the sound so it fits tightly together into the mix.

Compression always helps.

Keyed Compression is even cooler.

[ernest828]

Every so often someone asks about recording drums. Yesturday I began working with a drummer on Pre Production for an album and we began experimenting with mics and placement of mics. The goal was to use the same 4 mics (kick, snare and 2 OHS) on the entire kit for the lenght of the entire project. We are still not done finalizing the setup but this drum sound we captured with the overheads is excellent.

 

Mics used:

Two AT 4050s as OHS in XY position. One 4050 was positioned upside down at a 45 degree angle towards the right with the lower 4050 positioned at a 45 degree angle facing the left. Monster Cable was used to run to two Avalon 737 mic pres/compressors/eq. The lower 4050 was miked 20 inches from the highest cymbal. The higher (upside down) 4050 is a finger width above the lower 4050. Both mics are app. 35 - 40 degrees to the floor.

 

737 Settings:

PRE You`ll have to adjust gain according to drummer and room size so I won`t give pre settings.

COMPRESSOR

Threshold was set to -10 with a ratio of 4:1 with a medium fast attack and slow release. The 737 does not give the times on the faceplate but Attack was set to 9:30 and Release set to 2:30.

EQ

Bass: Roll off at 140 hz.

Treble: Boast 2dbs at 10k.

 

KICK

Miked with a AKG D112 five inches from the bass head. I used one moving blanket to enclose the entire drum and mic. Signal ran into an APHEX 107 mic pre.

 

SNARE

Miked with a Shure SM 57 two inches from top. Signal ran into the other channel of the APHEX 107.

 

Additional Notes:

I used 6 moving blankets (Home Depot) and surrounded the entire drum kit with these. The blanket rested on mic stands that were setup on a T position so I could drape the blankets over. The average height of this blanket wall was 55 inches from the floor with the exception of the mic stand behind the drummer. This was 67 inches from the floor and made a huge difference in sound.

 

My studio is one room (15` x 15`) with parallel walls and tiled floors. I had to purchase 2 cheap area rugs (6` x 9`) and put the drums on this. With d8b and drums in the same room I was concerned about the HD noise but this was not a problem with the blankets and positioning the drums facing me and mics facing away from the HD noise.

 

Ernest