Surdo tuning/mic preference?

[tonio]

Heyas,

I got a small samba troup coming in on a future project( 2weeks from now).

Does anyone know how tune a surdo? I'm just thinking ahead in case there's a problem.

Also any ideas on a mic, maybe a 421 or LD condenser?

Any help appreciated.

T

[DrummerCafe]

If a kick drum and a floor tom procreated ... they would beget a surdo.

 

Tuning varies depending on the instrument. Traditional drums are rope tensioned; modern versions use bolt tension rods.

 

I would think your players would know how to tune the instrument.

 

There are various sizes, and roles (parts) that each surdo plays; high & low.

 

As far as miking the surdo, I think your thoughts are valid. A large diaphragm mic which can handle the SPL and low-end frequencies. I would think a D-112 (or better) would work for the largest surdo ... and for miking a number of surdos (in a group), something like the AKG 414 would work. To capture the timbre qualities of the surdo(s), I personally would not use a close mic technique, but rather back the mic off several feet away. Obviously this depends on your project, the instrument, the room, etc.

 

Good Luck!

[tonio]

Bart,

You da man, thanks for the info!!

I figured they would know how to tune them, however some drummer's tend to be stuck.. you know

theres a problem in the way it sounds e.g. does'nt fit in the mix, so suggesting to tune it (higher or lower)and they blow a stack or say "this is the correct tuning".

I have a 414, so I'll try those for surdos, and maybe the 421 or 57 on repenique (sp?), its about the size of a snare yes?

Thanks again.

T

[surfjunkie]

i'd say Bartman nailed it by saying tuning depends on the instrument. however, if there's bass on the track, try not to tune it "in between" notes- if it's between B & C, pick one. less dissonance with the bass that way.

 

also- resist the urge to tune it to the track! if the tune has more than one chord, the note will sound wrong on the rest of them. plus, once you tune it to the song, the drum will be heard as a pitched note- everywhere on the album. if you don't it's just a drum.

 

repeniques are usually about 10x10, more timbale than snare. one stick one hand.

 

i wanna hear it!

[DrummerCafe]

wager47 is right about the repinique (the "r" is pronounced like an "h"). It's like a snare/timbale with no snare wires. It will have lots of overtones because of the metal shell, and the high pitched tuning. In my opinion, the drum will sound better when it's NOT close miked ... but I realize it depends on all the factors already mentioned.

 

Yeah, the surdo will be like a djembe in that if you have bass guitar, the sustain of the surdo may interfer with the bass. That's all a post-production, mix-down solution anyway ... not really anything to do with recording it ... except what wager47 mentioned about the tuning.

 

It's physically impossible for a drum to get an exact pitch (even timpani), so in this case keeping it away from an actual existing pitch is probably smart. Could cause headaches when you try and mix.

 

Yeah man, I want to hear this when you are done.

 

Here's a VERY ROUGH MIX of a thing I did in the studio a few months ago. I recorded the repinique, caxixi, and the surdo (with a foot pedal ... yes I cheated) live ... then added the other stuff in the studio. It's definitely a "white boy" attempt ... but the tune was already "white bread with cheese on top" so it's just a vibe ... so to speak ... not authentic.

 

http://drummercafe.com/download/SAMBA.mp3

 

The CD just came out and the mix is lot better than the one I posted ... but I don't like the final mix either! LOL Anyway the rough mix was just to give me something to take home after the session ... it's all out of balance, no EQ or effects.

[Prof.Sound]

I'd recommend using a large diaphram or ruler flat condensor and staying away from the D112, SM57, etc. The bump in the lower registers due to the inherent curve or proximity effect would be a problem, especially around the 200-300Hz range, where mud can easily happen.

 

The likes of say a Shure SM81 or the 414 would be good choices. Or maybe even a ribbon from about 24" above the drum.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by P.Sound:

The likes of say a Shure SM81 or the 414 would be good choices. Or maybe even a ribbon from about 24" above the drum.

I'd never use a ribbon mic on something like that. Ribbons are very sensitive (easily damaged), and 2 feet from the drum is not going to fully resolve the SPL issue. If you want to take the risk ... you might get good results ... but I don't think I would do it with the surdo; the repinique would be okay.

 

Like everyone else ... it's just my opinion.

[Prof.Sound]

A Royer 121 would work exceptionally well, and unless you abuse it to an extreme, it won't blow up. True, some of the others are fragile, such as Coles, but the Royer is known for providing exceptionally smooth response on micing guitar cabinets, hand drums, horns and drum overheads, to name a few.

 

[jeff strong]

You gotten some excellent info so far, but there are a couple things to consider that no one has touched on yet. First, as for the tuning of the surdo, since the heads are attached via a rod (Contemporanea drums for example) or cable (Remo drums for example) system, these bolts or cables extend from one rim to the other. What this means is that when you tune one head you're actually tuning both heads at the same time. Not a bid deal but you may end up making some compromises in pitch if either of the heads are old or worn out (or the drum isn't true).

 

Another thing, the surdo is played much like the repanique in that both hands are used with the right hand playing with a mallet and the left playing directly on the head. The right hand traditionally alternates between striking the drum with the felt tip of the mallet and the rim with its shoulder. The left hand alternates between playing open tones using the fingers on the head or muted tones by pressing the palm into the head. This can make micing the drum a little different than micing a bass drum or floor tom because you'll want to capture all of the nuances contained in these various strokes.

 

What works best for me is to start by placing a LD condenser mic about 1 to 3 feet away from the drum directly horizontal to the rim. If I want more of the attack of the drum then I'll move the mic up above the drum, whereas if I want more of the drum's tone then I'll move the mic down the shell a bit.

 

As for mics my first choice lately has been a Shure KSM-44 in a figure 8 pattern. I place the mic 1 to 2 feet from the drum, point the mic directly at the rim and let the rear capsule pick up the room sound. This technique works great if you have a nice-sounding room and if you don't need to worry about picking up other instruments.

 

It sounds like you'll probably be recording the whole band at once and won't be able to use the figure 8 pattern. In this case, the cardiod pattern will work well, but I'd move the mic back a bit (2 to 3 feet) to eliminate the proximity effect and to pick up as much of the instrument as possible. I much prefer using figure 8 mode, but I have a really great room to record in and I always track the surdo by itself.

 

As for other mics, I've also had good luck using a Soundelux U195 or U99 ( in figure 8) and on one occassion a Rode NTK. I've not found a dynamic kick drum mic to work that well for the surdo, mainly because of the various textures of the drum (if played traditionally). (You didn't ask but my favorite preamp for the surdo using any of these mics is the Cranesong Flamingo).

 

Just for clarification, there are actually three classes of surdos: the marcacao (usually 20-24 inches), the reposta (usually 16-18 inches), and the cortador (usually 13-14 inches). Smaller samba groups will have only the marcacao whereas larger groups will also include the reposta or both the reposta and cortador.

 

If this is an American samba group it's unlikely that they will have anything other than the marcacao. If this is the case then the rhythms that the drummer plays will (hopefully) include the rim and left hand techniques.

 

I've seen quite a few American samba groups play really simple rhythms on the surdo and not include the rim or muted/unmuted tones in their playing (don't get me started). If this is the case you can probably gat away with using a kick drum mic and not worry about the textural variations of the traditonal rhythms, because at that point there just playing the bass drum anyway.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jeff

[surfjunkie]

it sounds like you know a lot about samba, Jeff, i'd like to hear some stuff you've recorded/produced. any national cd's?

 

I've seen quite a few American samba groups play really simple rhythms on the surdo and not include the rim or muted/unmuted tones in their playing (don't get me started).

brasillien escolas pretty much use no rim hits. each drum has a role, and it's an open tone.

 

i know you're talking about the use of the drum in smaller groups, but even then i'd rather hear a 1-3 drum section use just mutes & tones, no rims.

 

as a heads up to tonio, letting him know what to expect, you're right on.

 

let us samba freaks in on recordings you've worked on!

 

-------------------

 

marcacao > "mark"

reposta > "reply"

cortador > "cutter"

[jeff strong]

brasillien escolas pretty much use no rim hits. each drum has a role, and it's an open tone.

Wager, you're right about the the Brazilian samba schools no longer using rim hits. I guess the groups have gotten so big that the rims just clutter things up. I have some old recordings of samba from the forties and fifties that use rims quite a bit. It's a shame: I love the way the rim can add to the groove. Oh well.

 

let us samba freaks in on recordings you've worked on!

No big secret here. I'm just a samba freak too. I've recorded a lot of samba over the years, although nothing out there nationally (unless you count a 2 minute snippit on the CD that comes with one of my books: Drums For Dummies).

 

As much as I love samba most of my surdo recording over the last few years has been with the CD's I've made at the REI Institute. It's not traditional samba (which explains why I still use rim hits), instead it's traditional surdo playing along with other drums and perc. instruments. The REI Institute's recordings are for therapeutic use for people with neurological disorders like autism and not available through normal retailers. Later this year I have a three CD set coming out for the general public which will have a lot of surdo playing on it - only one traditional samba ensemble piece though.

 

I also had a samba group in Santa Fe a few years back but I've gotten too busy to keep it going (I figure when my daughter is older I'll start it up again so that she can play too).

 

marcacao > "mark"

reposta > "reply"

cortador > "cutter"

You know, I never thought about what they mean. It makes sense.

 

Tonio: I too would love to hear what you end up recording.

 

Jeff

[Alécio Costa - Brazil]

hey, brazilian guy on here!!!!

I am not a BIG FAN OF samba but I am just finishing the mixing/mastering of a samba group, which is basically a family of young brothers/sisters. They do play quite well!!

 

I would recommend you using the AKG c2000B. It was the mic that gave me the best results among condensers and dynamic mics. I recorded this instrument as long as 4 months and I have to tell you that the tuning also depends on the song seleceted and if you have tan tan, repinique, etc.

 

The C2000B is a great mic, especially for high spl concerning bass.

 

Close to the c2000B was the At4050 and the Beta 57.

 

Sometimes the resonance shall go as down as 40hz.It will depend on your tuning and space left to be filled by subbass. The tam tam might have a bump at 120hz, so take care with the overtones when mixing to make them sit well in a crowded mix.

 

I shall send you some mixes in mp3 when the job gets done.