Electronics--long, but please read and respond

[bigswole31]

Do any of you know of an electronic kit that can be used effectively as the main kit for studio recordings? Most of them come of sounding like toys to me. After 20+ years of drumming, I find too much missing from the electronic kits...especially for the price. A fully tricked out set of V-drums costs as much as a top flight acoustic!

 

The reason that I am asking is because I now have my own production facility that is not really conducive for acoustic kit miking, and I would like to be able to lay "live" drum tracks instead of programming them on my Mac or my MPC all the time. I owned the original V-drums, but was dissatisfied with their sound. Sure they sounded better than the competition, but they were a FAR cry from the real deal, and ended up being a really expensive set of practice pads, so I sold 'em.

 

I know I could just go out and track drums elsewhere, but that defeats what I am trying to do with my "all-in-house" goals.

 

Strangely, I hear much better nuances in the new softsynths (ie Battery), and the new 64MB SRX drum card for Roland's new synths then I did from the V-Drums that I used to have. Native Instruments' Battery can be snagged for $400. The Roland 5080 keyboard module with the drum card check in for $2200. This setup gives 128 voice polyphony, a stadium load of killer sounds (in addition to the card, the unit has a 64MB of internal sounds of all types and can play back Roland and AKAI Samples), effects, digital outs, multiple analog outs, eight expansion card slots and room for 128MB of user-installed RAM to play back your own samples. The top of the line V-drums kit rings in at $5000, with nowhere near this level of sound quality, expandability, performance, or palette of sounds (drums or otherwise). Sure you can lay the tracks down on a Vdrum-kit and record into a sequencer and replace the sounds later, but that's a double expense.

 

I am not trying to put out a commercial for the above products...rather I am wondering why manufacturers are giving the drummers the short end of the deal when it comes to technology, sounds, and features. Sure we get the pads, but anyone who has made their own can testify that they aren't that expensive to make (excluding the V-cymbals). Why do keyboardists get access to much better drums? At the winter NAMM, Roland simply put out the same session kit and added to new color options? Where is the 5080-level drum module? Is anyone pushing to bring out a top-flight product? How are the Ddrums in comparison?

 

Thanks

[surfjunkie]

in my opinion, the V's are the best feeling pads out there. i haven't worked with the V-drums' interface as much as you have, but why can't you use it to control Battery? you'd have access to many great drum sample cds (do a search at the Keyboard Forum for some conversations about good ones).

 

i have an alses dm-pro (currently broken ), it has trigger inputs too. and you can load it with your own samples.

 

i don't know if Battery & V-drums use multiple samples, but that's a good way to improve the sound too- a harder hit plays a different sample.

[Jazzman]

Hi bigswole31, I own a small studio and have a 7-piece Pearl Export set with a lot of cymbals and goodies surrounding it sitting in the studio. I would love to have a set of the latest V-drums, for live sessions(no drum room yet). I usually have the drummer play live with headphones on, while the other players using headphones play directly to synths then to the mixing board. If there is a singer(s) then that's another session to overdub vocals. A click track (programed drum machine) keeps time for the vocals and the rest of the band, then I can get the drummer into the next session. A little bit of a pain but it works for us. There was a time I had 7 people in my previous studio that was 16 ft by 12 ft with all of the gear, 4 singers bass keys drums and myself.......what a trip. Everything went well, thank you very much!

 

A quiet electronic set could be used while the rest of the group is present, that way if the singer needs to do another take you don't have any cross contamination of sound......been there.

 

I agree with you that the drummers of today are just starting to see the fruits of the new technology available. I've played for many years and enjoy seeing new ideas come to life. If it wasn't for Roland (a drummer, I believe) we wouldn't have what we see today in the electronic kits.

 

I am a true drummer, love playing on the real thing, but in the production side, as a composer and engineer, I need the high technology stuff that allows me to use my imagination for many of the songs that I put together for my clients. My own instrumental work consists of (Contemp, Acid, and Cool Jazz) R&B, Gospel, Funk, and others. It is the inspiration that I get on the electronic gear that stimulates the brain in comming up with new ideas. I have many songs where I play along on the real set with a drum machine for the added punch and edge.

 

I've never played on D-Drums though.....from what I heard they give the V-drums a run for the money. Too early to tell though. I like the feel of the V-drums, and the triggers are allowing for a better "real" drum feel. Most songs of today don't require the real touch, if you will, of the skin snare combo. I know a lot of drummers trigger a real snare for a different sound. Your really paying for the triggers and the idea. The sounds can always be bought.

 

My 2 cents worth, my friend.

 

Jazzman

[bigswole31]

Jazzman,

 

I agree with you. I have to do similar things in my project studio. I do think that Roland really kicked things of well, but I definitely feel like that have stagnated. The V-Session goes for $4-5k. This price includes a $1400 module with a $300 card in its ONE expansion slot that bumps the total sound ROM up to 28MB. For $1700 hundred bucks you get limited access to sounds, and must purchase extra gear to be able to enhance you sounds after the fact (triggers that then have to go through MIDI to another device produce a slight timing lag that I can feel when I am playing). Compare this to a 5080 that is not dedicated to drums, has better convertors, an extra set of MIDI I/O, 64MB of stock internal sounds, 8 expansion slots, room for 128MB of RAM to play back samples in WAV/AIFF/Roland/and AKAI formats, COSM, 24-bit effects, and an 8-channel digital out solution (R-BUS) for $1800. What gives?!?!

 

You can cut all of the above features in half and add in the trigger interface and you would still have a module that is light years ahead of what Roland offers in terms of sound quality and expandability, but if they follow their current trend they would try set an MSRP of $3000! They would use the price and capabilites of the TD-10 to set and justify the price of a more capable module, instead of using the technology and its price point in the keyboard market. It's the same tech and the same parts, so why would/should drummers have to pay so much. How is the cost of the TD-10 justified when it's over 3 years old and far outdated when compared to Roland's synth/sampler offerings? Why should I as a drummer have to spend $4k on the kit, and then buy a bunch of other hardware/software to be able to stay current, when a 5080/DAW/sampler owner just has to buy sampling CDs as they are released? True, as a producer, I have all of this, but what of those who don't?

 

I just wish they would stop treating the drum market as a technological afterthought, and give us equal technology at an equal price. All who feel the same should email Roland and let them know.

[MPCman]

Visit the forum of http://www.ddrums.com and see how satisfied most users are.

[BassGuy]

Bigswole,

 

Check out http://www.vdrums.com for lots of ideas, actually take the whole question to their discussion forums for some great ideas. It's a third party site that's honest about both pros and cons of the Roland appraoch.

 

I've been playing VDrums for a coupla years now. Recently sold them to concentrate on bass, keys, and recording.

 

As others have pointed out, half the point of the VDrums is the feel of the controllers - pads, pedals and kick trigger. If the feel isn't that crucial to you, there are less expensive controllers you can get.

 

The other half of the point of the VDrums is the modeled V-Kick, snare and tom sounds. These sounds are NOT samples played back, but are synthesized in real time based on the location and intensity of each hit. That means each hit sounds different and there is a huge range of expressiveness in the sounds that's really hard to find in other electronic drum modules. These sounds have lots of tweaking options too: combine different types of heads, shells, sizes, etc.

 

If you only use the sampled kick/snare/tom sounds, you're missing the potential of V-drums. The percussion and cymbals sounds are all samples, although the newest cymbals and controllers give some pretty impressive 3-way switchovers on the cymbal sounds.

 

There are a LOT of parameters for adjusting the module sensitivity to your playing style on the triggers. If you haven't spent a day with the manual in hand to tweak VDrums to your own style, then it's not really fair to criticize them (unless the criticism is for not instantly knowing how you play out of the box).

 

The top half of the VDrums line also has some pretty extensive effects programming options in the modules.

 

Now if the realistic feel, expressive responsiveness and constant variety of sound don't matter to you, then you should get whatever pads and triggers happen to feel best to you, and run a MIDI cable to whatever sound source you like. If that would work for you, you'd save a lot of money compared to getting even a used VDrums setup.

[tld]

Like you, we wanted the easy of recording sampled drums, but with the ability to do real live tracking with a good feel.

 

We're doing all our recording (into Protools) using Ddrum pads and are VERY happy with them. We wound up with a somewhat compex setup. The kick and the snare (and the snare rim) are being recorded from the audio output of the Ddrum brain. For other pieces in the kit we are sending the Ddrum midi to a SampleCell card and bringing that audio directly into Protools.

 

I can't say enough about the sound and quality of the Ddrums though. My drummer never used anything but an accoustic kit until this setup, and he's very happy with them. He loves the fact that they have real heads. Playing with headphones on (to avoid hearing the stick noise and having the drum sounds coming from accross the room) he finds it very realistic.

 

The triggering of the Ddrums is VERY fast. They boast 3 millisecond triggering, and I did a test that prooved that to be accurate. I recorded audio from the Ddrum into protools while recording the stick noise on the drum head with a mic. Consistently around 3 milliseconds. I have no idea how fast Vdrums trigger, but I do know that the Alesis DMPro takes 9 milliseconds.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Tom