I admit I am an elitist

[Gaddabout]

Just when DJ thought his board would come down from an intense thread, Gaddabout strikes in the middle of the night ...

 

Since we're all in confessional mode, I would like to open up this discussion at risk of offending everyone. Keep in mind I am trying very hard to be more accepting ...

 

I've read through everything on the "professional" thread and it dawned on me how wrong I was to cast myself as the all-accepting drummer. In fact, I have some strong biases. I know it started in high school. It *really* bugged me the many wanna-be drummers at my public school of 4,000 worshipped image over substance. While they were working on their Tommy Lee stick twirls, I was geeking out on some serious jazz, funk and fusion.

 

Something clicked in me while in high school marching band my junior year. I was discussing the great music I discovered over the summer with another drummer in my drumline. I had already developed something of an attitude, since I obsessed over perfecting my technique, while all the drummers were more content to goof off. I guess in the back of my mind this other drummer's opinion had become invalid. He was not the drummer I was. I listed all the great drummers I'd heard. He response, to sum, was, "I've never heard of them, so they must all suck." Then he retorted, "But, of course, they've got nothing on Phil Collins, the greatest drummer in the world." I won't go into great detail how I nearly maimed the poor boy. It really upset me. It wouldn't have been so bad if he mentioned Phil C.'s playing with Planet X, but this guy had never heard of Phil Collins until 1982.

 

I would get into discussions with the general public (non-musicians) at my school, and they would give me the same response: "Never heard of that guy, so he must not be good, but X drummer in Y metal band is obviously the greatest." I developed a hardened habit of shredding hard rock and metal drummers. And what would be their response to my criticism? "Well, if you're so [expletive] good, why aren't you making millions and playing in arenas?"

 

sigh

 

Anyway, I've been bitter about it all these years since. My attitude was once very poor. I feel I've been stretched and improved over the years. For example, imagine my surprise that Kenny Aronoff and Max Weinberg can really swing! And I had a lot of difficulty categorizing Bernard Purdie, who can't do a double-stroke to save his life, but plays so beautifully. But I can't say my instinct to criticize rock and pop drummers has gone away. Today, my fear is we're in danger of losing an entire century of artistic technique forever if we don't open some minds and ears to drummer who are not household names. It drives me crazy to see drummers in videos playing sloppy and using really bad technique. However, I have learned to better categorize certain drummers in my head so I don't offend as many people:

 

- Drummers who I think have limited talent, but certainly bring the right energy and appearance to the band. (i.e. Tre' Cool)

 

- Drummers who I think have marginal talent, but they add something to their group or band. (i.e. most heavy metal drummers)

 

- Drummers who have a lot of talent, but I think are one-dimensional and/or have to play in situations specifically suited to their talents (i.e. Neil Peart).

 

- Drummers who are amazing technicians, but I don't want to play anything like them for various reasons (i.e. Virgil Donati, Gary Husband, et al.)

 

I really do have a point. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I don't think I'm alone in this. Anyone else want to step forward and admit their bias? Maybe, just maybe, a civil discussion can get us past making assumptions about point of view.

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Gaddabout on 09-09-2001 at 06:12 AM

[ModernDrummer]

LOL Gaddabout, I guess I should be one of the first to step up. Since I'm always willing to jump into the fracas.

 

Hmmmm, just by your 'confession' here, I'm not sure I'd tag Gaddabout as an 'elitist'. Perhaps. I think perhaps you just have STRONG emotions and opinions of what you think drumming is and who you think does it (to your thinking) 'properly'. I think most of us have those same feelings, perhaps not as strong, perhaps stronger.

 

And I think it's great that you DO have those strong emotions, and you're not afraid to expose them here, in public. Obviously, I've never heard you play, but in my personal experiences, people who are able to do that are usually pretty good artists. Drums, dancing, singing, painting, whatever. Artists, at least the TRUE artists, paint or play or sing BECAUSE they have those emotions. And for whatever reason, angels or demons, inside them, they HAVE to get it out somehow.

 

Don't we often picture Beethoven pounding away at the piano, wild horse's mane hair tossing furiously, like some miniature tornado? Well, don't we often picture Elvis doing the same thing? Hmmm, The Beatles? Sure, because we understand their inner demons, or emotions.

 

THAT'S intensity. Unfortunately, it's NOT always a good thing to be that intense about stuff! Often it can come back and haunt you. But if you're an intense personality, that's what you are. So be it...

 

While I wouldn't even debate the 'categories' you listed above, we all could spend a lifetime debating WHO should be in this or that category. For myself, I don't really label drummers in categories of 'GOOD'. Or even 'Technical vs. Non-Technical'. For me, that's too abstract and subjective. And of course, like ALL of drumming, open to interpretation and (vehement, LOL!) debate.

 

I perceive myself as an average drummer. Just a regular guy with some (too often, perhaps) intense moods. From comments made to me, I guess that shows when I play, either on stage, at rehearsal or in the studio. I never really think about it. I always just thought that everyone is supposed to play that way. Even my parents and music teacher from a very young 4 years of age (when I began music lessons) always hammered that into my head. "Either put or heart & soul into it, or get off the drumset", they would say. So today, strictly for myself, I have two different ways of evaluating drummers. ALL performing artists really. Each way has several categories.

 

First way is simple, two categories. 1) Drummers that CAN do something (technical) on the drumset that I cannot do and 2) Those that CAN'T. My thinking on it is this: If ya wanna try and impress me, do something on the drumset I can't do. If ya can't, then you're just an average drummer. Like me. Sure, you may be able to play it somewhat faster, or with a blindfold on. But that's all just gimmicks. I've been on stage too long, around too long to be impressed with gimmicks. They're fun to watch, but they don't change the foundation of the drumming. And let's face it, there's not too much that any ONE of us could play, that someone else couldn't replicate. Again, albeit possibly slower, faster, etc. Afterall, it's ALL just pounding on a drum, isn't it? Nothing that (physically) hard about it. So to me, and me alone, MOST drummers are just average. I have my favorites to listen to, of course. But for the most part, there ARE no 'Drum Gods'. Not even Neil Peart, my favorite all time drummer. He's just a guy. So was Rich, so was Krupa. Just guys.

 

The other way I categorize is by 'feel'. Whether or not the drummer has 'IT'. Whatever that is. I can't really tell ya, but I KNOW (for me) when they have IT, and when they do not. LOL, and THIS is where I usually get into trouble. When I jump into debates over feel. 'Cause 'FEEL' has absolutely NOTHING to do with technique. NOTHING. ZERO, zip, zilch. And to my thinking, that doesn't just mean speedy rolls, or total limb independence. Or being 'technically correct' even on the ride pattern!

 

See, a lot of fellow drummers judge and label a drummers capability by that drummers ability to play a 'proper' samba rhythm, or 'funk' groove, or 'swing' ride pattern. What are those, anyway? Just a pattern to pound on some drums. IMHO, you CAN play a Swing ride to a Samba, and make it sound RIGHT. IF it keeps the flavor of the song. So to me, there ARE no 'proper' or 'improper' ways to groove, swing, rock, whatever.

 

The way *I* personally categorize drummers is like this:

 

1) Those that have IT. Those whose lives and emotions are exhibited to you when you watch / hear them. Whether they're playing something very simple or very complicated is completely irrelevant. They may or may not be great technical drummers. But ALL in this category are GREAT drummers. Can (is, does) that drummer convey to you his or her EMOTIONS when they play? Can you pretty well TELL what kind of a mood they're in when you listen? Are they communicating, through their drumming, their inner feelings to you?

 

Then, and ONLY then, are they a great drummer in my book. Chops be damned, money be damned, notariety be damned, training or education be damned. Though they may or may not have any or all of those things. None of that is important. They play to 'cry out' to you from behind that drumset, and YOU hear them. YOU feel them. They're 'getting' to you, communicating to you. They have IT. And NO criteria or evaluation carries greater weight or significance, IMO. I think most of us agree Buddy Rich had IT. We each can list others. They're pretty easy to spot because of IT, because of their intensity. But you may or may not like them, either as people or as drummers. But this is ALSO the category musicians most WANT to be in. This is the pinnacle.

 

It's not difficult getting into this category. All ya hafta do is bare your life, your soul, all your inner feelings and emotions of love, hate, lust, laughter, anger and anxiety to every stranger that happens to be within earshot. All you have to do is be willing to look like a moron, put yourself up for public ridicule as well as adulation and let people throw rocks at you, while others are embracing you. That's all. Simple.

 

2) The Wanna-be's. THIS is the category that most upsets me, LOL. These are often the folks that think they can substitute something for having IT. They have no or little feel for music, little real passion, yet have the audacity to try and "steal" jobs and money from real musicians. 'Cause afterall, it IS legal. Not fair, but legitmate.

 

I resent these folks. For one thing, they're detracting from the quality of music. For another, they're taking money and jobs away from category one musicians out of sheer greed. They say stupid stuff like "Hey, it's a way to pay the bills." Buggar off! I'm not saying they're getting paid a lot. Just that the have no real interest in the music. It's just an 'easy' job to them, easier than digging a ditch, or working at a grocery store. So, they're not drummers, they're just lazy. "Whhaaaa, I don't WANNA hafta work hard. So, I'm gonna be a drummer!"

 

Worse still, they often project an air of superiority about them! "Oh, I've been playing such and such for 15 years, so I'm in category 1". OR "Oh, but I studied at such and such for 4 whole years". Or "Oh, but I played with 'Whozit & Whatzit' on the 'Uknowit' album". Or "Oh, I can play all the rudiments and know all the chops to all the varieties of music, 'cause I'm a professional" Oh yeah? Ever breakdown on stage 'cause the song you were playing just hurt too damned much? "Oh my NO! Why would I ever do something like that? People would think me silly." Go away!

 

Unfortunately, there's a lot of musicians in this category. No digs here at ANY member of this or any other forum, O.K.? I'm just stating what I've found based on my own experiences since I began, before kindergarten. These folks will study their butts off, may or may not have formal training, learn really cool and sophisticated chops and then pronounce themself equal or superior to those in category 1. WRONG! If ya don't have IT, ya ain't gettin' in. Period. I don't care WHAT kinda music you studied, what equipment you have, who ya played with, what your education is, who your students are or what conservatory you were Validictorian at. Until you can HONESTLY get up on stage, in front of a group of total strangers, sometimes people you wouldn't THINK of letting in your back yard, let alone your home, and bare your soul, cry 'cause it REALLY hurts, you don't deserve and don't get to stand and be counted as a great drummer. Learn all the rudiments you want, gimme a long list of credentials, show me a mega-buck paycheck, doesn't matter. The folks in category 1 PAID THEIR DUES with their hearts, souls and personal tragedies. And you AIN'T buyin' your way in with some fancy riff, or 'Hey, I STUDIED for X Years' attitude. Awwww, you put 4 or 5 or whatever years of your life into studying real hard? Awww, that's a shame. The folks in category 1 have paid with their lives. You think that puts you anywhere NEAR equal? You think a few years of formal training, IF that's the case, is justification enough for some 'Joe Lunchbox' to plunk down his or her hardearned cash to listen to you PRETEND to be a musician? These people are the MUZAK version of musicians. Go away, sell your equipment and leave music to the musicians.

 

3) Folks that KNOW they don't have IT. They enjoy music, love music, listen to music. They may have an informal band, that just jams in a basement somewhere. Plays odd jobs once in a while. A wedding here, a birthday party there. A 'Jam Night' at a local pub. It's all joyous to them. These folks don't have IT, but they're often mesmerized by those that do. They know they'll never have IT, aren't even sure what IT is, or how to get IT, so it fascinates them that another human being could BE that intense about something so "frivilous and fun" as music.

 

These folks aren't trying to compete with those in category 1, and not trying to label themselves as such. They're usually fun folk. I think most fans fall into this category, and many, many musicians. They always have great, uplifting spirits. These people are stable! LOL, I guess that's emotional AND physical! They have 'challenges', not 'problems'. They have their lives outside of music. Lives that are much more important to them than music will ever be. Wives, kids, etc. These are GREAT people. Not the GREAT musicians, but GREAT people. The best in some ways, 'cause they're not taunted and haunted by intensity.

 

Sorry Gaddabout, for taking sooo long on this post. But, you asked for honesty. That's what ya got from me... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

And thanks for being couragous enough to throw up the topic. An intense one to be sure. My guess is, you probably have IT.

 

J.B.

[ian1642605905]

Modern Drummer

I don't know how well you can play drums but you sure can type!LOL!

 

Seriously I tend to agree with gad!It saddens me that some of the most accomplished drummers in the world are some of the most unrecognized by the public in general.Hell even among fellow drummers!

People tend to disregard things they don't understand!Most people wouldn't know a difficult drum riff if they heard it, simply because they don't know what effort is required to accomplish that level of play!

 

People tend to view drumming as "Hell I can do that"!HA! I've always enjoyed allowing folks to sit behind my drums and give it a try!It seems to always give them a bit more respect for my ability!Why people assume that drumming is easy is beyond me!Not everyone has the aptitude to become a drummer much less the coordination and just plain focus and drive to get past the very basic grooves.

 

I believe this same disregard or lack of respect from people applies to bass guitarists!I recently purchased a 5 string bass.(just a toy)Well I have nothing but respect for bassists!Some of the most simplistic sounding riffs are VERY difficult and without my background in drumming would be virtually impossible for me to replicate!

 

Musicians in general tend to take a backseat to frontmen/vocalists which to me validates the fact that people are visually stimulated far more that audibly!Not everyone mind you but the fact remains that in the commercial music industry you don't know too many ugly vocalists.And if they are ugly they are at least interesting to look at(Marilyn Manson)

And ask the same people the drummers name and most every time their response will be:UUHHMMM???.....

 

sorry about the rambling http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

ian*

[ModernDrummer]

LOL, ian*. Yeah, when it's something I'm impassioned about, I can really jump up there on the soapbox! Ummm, but that's not always a good thing, as I mentioned.

 

Uh, and I don't know how well I can play, either. I try to give it my all when I'm playing, but I don't know if I've yet played to my absolute maximum capability. Please note, I said 'capability', not 'ability'. I don't want to give the impression I believe myself the ultimate technician. I'm still trying to find exactly what my maximum capabilities are. Haven't found that yet. As the saying goes, "If you reach your goals, you're not setting them high enough."

 

Oh, and to clarify, to me MAXIMUM doesn't necessarily mean LOUD. Or playing with passion or feeling or fire doesn't necessarily being loud, either. I've heard some great drum work that used brushes and was immensely simple. But perfect, played with passion.

 

And your right. MOST people think they can get behind a drumset and do it. I especially get this from other musicians. Hey, as my above post observed, IMHO even most DRUMMERS can't do IT.

 

But, I think like Gad, you've paid YOUR dues, and hold a bit of resentment for those who didn't that CLAIM to be what you ARE. You know what? That's O.K. 'Cause YOU know. And my guess is that when YOU watch or listen to another drummer, YOU know whether they're a member of YOUR club. And that's all that really matters about it anyway, isn't it? That YOU know?

 

This message has been edited by ModernDrummer on 09-10-2001 at 05:05 PM

[ian1642605905]

moderndrummer,

 

Love ya Man!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

ian*

[tachonene]

hey gaddabout, im 16 , im in high school and im listening to jazz, funk, fusion aaaaaaand progressive rock and metal!!!hahaha

[rlhubley]

Wow, lots of good stuff already in here. I've gotta say just one thing. I've never, ever cried onstage. I feel that I play with my heart and soul. I try very hard to put myself in every thing i play. You see, i have been lucky, very lucky. I don't have much personal tragedy in my life. Other than one horrible girlfriend, i've pretty much been without tragedy. My heart and soul is filled with happines and joy. I make it a point in my life to do everything i can to attaing true happiness and peace. Drumming is a HUGE part of me, and is definitely part of what happiness means to me.

What I'm trying to say is, to me, playing with your heart and soul doesn't always mean playing with sad, depressing, dark, or lonely feelings. It means to play what you feel. And for many of us, that "feeling" pretty nice.