sidereal Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 I'd be interested to see you all rank these ideas in order as to why you play the drums. Obviously we play because we love drumming. But I'm particularly interested in what importance you place on the above three concepts. Here's mine.... 1. Money. Shameful, but true. I almost put this at number 2, but the fact is, I would like to be making all or most of my income, and a fairly good one at that, playing drums. It's been a longtime goal of mine. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I love what I do, and I'd like to be doing it more, and be able to raise a family and buy a house, in addition to owning a complete studio. Call me shallow. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif 2. Artistic Expression/Integrity. In my 20s, this was an unequivocal Number 1, and it's still hugely important to me. I only pick projects I believe in. There's no greater joy than playing with a group of musicians who are riding that same cosmic ship as you are, and feeling the music just wash over you. 3. Fame. A distant third, although I admit to a guilty, egotistic pleasure of possibly becoming famous and seeing what that rollercoaster ride would be like. Anyone else? Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruBoz Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 1. Artistic Expression - I'm not in a band at the moment so I can express myself all I want and nobody seems to mind! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif 3 (tie). I've never made any money playing drums. Any live performance I've been a part of has been for free. I'm also certainly not famous either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Actually the topic has been discussed several times, and quite vehemently, in Craig's forum. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Not in some months, though. I'd be interested to hear the responses now vs. then. For me it's a no-brainer - #1 is artistic expression/integrity, in a close tie with the social interaction between bandmates/fellow musicians, and between musicians and their audiences. For me, those two things are totally related and intertwined. The fulfillment that comes from moving people and being moved by them through music is what gets me off. So long as I'm playing music I love, with people I love, I'm happy no matter what else the circumstances. But if I can't stand the music and/or the people I'm working with, no amount of money or fame is worth it. The other shit (money, fame, etc.) is so far down the list it's not even funny. Sure, I'd love to make more money from music, but my experience is that whenever you have to consider music as a commercial venture it severely puts a crimp in my #1 priority. Some people have broader tastes and/or are more sociable with more different types of people than I, so they don't have a problem with it. I guess it all comes down to being realistic about who you are and what you want out of music and life. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 08-28-2001 at 11:09 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan1642605963 Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 There is a fine line between Money and Artistic Expression. Money comes along with populatrity in mainstream music. Artistic Expression happens when money is not a factor. Whether you are set for life, or music is your hobby. Fame, I could care less... IM onegreyneed Email onegreyneed@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted August 29, 2001 Author Share Posted August 29, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: The fulfillment that comes from moving people and being moved by them through music is what gets me off. So long as I'm playing music I love, with people I love, I'm happy no matter what else the circumstances. It's interesting.... this is exactly why I picked 'money' No. 1. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I want that too, I want to be playing, as much as I can, without having to worry about doing anything else in order to pay the bills. I see artistic expression/integrity as something different, where you're pushing the boundaries, taking chances. That's such a huge gamble, being an artist and going for the truly artistic pursuit. Unfortunately, the more creative you try to take things, the less frequently you're probably going to be playing, and the bigger the struggle and sacrifice that goes with it. And here's where I expect Felix to post at any moment and say "Number one: chicks." http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif This message has been edited by sidereal on 08-29-2001 at 03:56 AM Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Been there done that. Actually we had one groupie get preggers and she didn't know who's in the band it was! So it boiled down to me and the guitar player getting blood tests! Luckily I lost. I am like so not into the "chick" thing now. The last thing I want to do is hang with some barfly or actually demean a woman thru wanton/indescriminate sex. It takes power away from the zen of the higher levels of drumming (for me). I would have to say all of the above. But since I'm already famous in my own mind that is redundant. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Originally posted by sidereal: It's interesting.... this is exactly why I picked 'money' No. 1. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I want that too, I want to be playing, as much as I can, without having to worry about doing anything else in order to pay the bills. Well, we'd all like that... but the reality is that MOST people have to play a lot of music that they think sucks, in order to pay the bills. You might think you just want to play, and there are some people who manage to find something good about every gig they do cuz their tastes are really broad and they don't mind "commercial" music. I ain't one of those people. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I have my very definite tastes and when I was doing music and engineering full time there were too many gigs where the music just totally sucked and/or the people were jerks. But I had to take the gigs because it was my job. That was just killing the joy of playing, for me - whereas if I'm working a different job then by the end of the day I'm just chomping at the bit to play, and I can play exactly what I want when I want, with whom I want, and that works better for me. I see artistic expression/integrity as something different, where you're pushing the boundaries, taking chances. That's such a huge gamble, being an artist and going for the truly artistic pursuit. Unfortunately, the more creative you try to take things, the less frequently you're probably going to be playing, and the bigger the struggle and sacrifice that goes with it. Well, again I think your personal taste determines what artistic expression and integrity means. If your tastes run toward the more arcane or progressive, you're right. If you happen to genuinely love N'Sync, then you can probably get all the gigs you want and make a ton of money and still have your "integrity". http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 LOL, You know, I always thought people who said they weren't interested in the money would lie about other things as well... 1) Money. LOL, and NO, NOT because I'm obsessed with money or that whole "The lust for money is the root of all evil" thing. But money gives you FREEDOM. In this day and age, in this (U.S.) or any other country, money gives you the freedom to make choices. And if you had it, you could much more easily pursue your Artistic Expression / Integrity. You may not like me saying that, but everyone reading this knows that it's not my opinion, it's the way it IS. Some will call it selling out. So be it. Call it whatever the heck you want. But there's not a person reading this that honestly would not prefer having the freedom to not worry about the bills, could live wherever they wished, could provide a lifetime of free choices for their families and decendants, if they had the choice 2) Artistic Expression / Integrity. Again, that comes under freedom, in my book. To freely choose the music, lyrics and musicians to play / sing it. LOL, that's what money can give you, that's why I said money first. The money isn't MORE important, it's just a higher priority, 'cause it makes the other two possible. 3) Well, I suppose anyone who performs on stage would like some. Otherwise, we wouldn't be up there standing in front of an audience showing off (O.K., o.k., showing your talents) for people. I guess it just depends on how much SOME is. I don't think I'd want the fame that Elvis or the Beatles had. So much that I couldn't even leave my home or hotel room and not get mobbed. LOL, on the other hand, I've never had that, so maybe I WOULD like it! But, I don't think so. I always said I'd like to be the world's richest unknown person. Selling hundreds of millions of albums full o' my great music, but no one would no who I was. I could walk into any McDonald's and they'd ask me for my order instead of an autograph. PERFECT! The problem is, how do you DO that? Seems to be no simple answer. On the other hand, at my age, a couple groupies here and there wouldn't hurt my diminishing ego, either! LMAO! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Originally posted by ModernDrummer: 1) Money. LOL, and NO, NOT because I'm obsessed with money or that whole "The lust for money is the root of all evil" thing. But money gives you FREEDOM. In this day and age, in this (U.S.) or any other country, money gives you the freedom to make choices. And if you had it, you could much more easily pursue your Artistic Expression / Integrity. You may not like me saying that, but everyone reading this knows that it's not my opinion, it's the way it IS. Some will call it selling out. So be it. Call it whatever the heck you want. But there's not a person reading this that honestly would not prefer having the freedom to not worry about the bills, could live wherever they wished, could provide a lifetime of free choices for their families and decendants, if they had the choice Sure, if somebody just handed me the money (like if I won the lottery), I'd take it. Of COURSE we'd all like to have that. But the reality is that for the vast majority of us, you have to give up something to get something, and the question is whether what you have to give up to get the money is worth what you get. If for example you become a top paid session drummer but that means you always have to play music you don't like and spend all your time travelling around to gigs so that you don't see your family and can't play the kind of music YOU really want to play, then IMO the price isn't worth it. 2) Artistic Expression / Integrity. Again, that comes under freedom, in my book. To freely choose the music, lyrics and musicians to play / sing it. LOL, that's what money can give you, that's why I said money first. The money isn't MORE important, it's just a higher priority, 'cause it makes the other two possible. In my own experience, it's been much more possible to achieve the artistic satisfaction when I do not tie music and money together. I don't have a lot of money, either. I feel like I have complete freedom artistically and plenty of time on my hands to pursue my music BECAUSE I did not tie myself down to making lots of money, getting into debt to finance equipment, etc. I COULD have more money if I were willing to work my ass off at programming or engineering. But I'd rather work less and have more time to pursue what I want. THAT is freedom to me, and it's realistic freedom that doesn't depend on winning the lottery or getting a #1 record. Yes, you have to have a certain amount of money to have freedom. Life sucks when you can't pay the phone bill or buy new drumsticks or fix your van when it breaks down. Been there, done that. But getting to that level doesn't take too much money unless you live in L.A. or N.Y. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif After that it's up to you. I drive a 10 year old car and live in a modest house and get all my clothes from thrift shops, but I've got a little studio in the basement, some great guys to play with and time to play. What else is there? --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Lee - Well, I can't really argue your perspective. Because it is, afterall YOUR perspective. However, in your example of a top paid session drummer, you should also consider that the $$$ these people earn give them that exact freedom you're talking about. True, they may be possibly playing music they don't care for. Although, I've noticed the top session drummers usually only take the jobs that HAVE music they care for. Why? Because they make enough deniro from those sessions to pick and choose their next session. Again, the FREEDOM to choose. Now, perhaps I'm way off base. LOL. certainly that's possible. But I've never really heard of someone like Gadd money grubbing and just selling himself off to the highest bidder. He does seem to pick and choose. And possibly that's BECAUSE of the money. Personally, I wasn't referring to winning the lottery. That wasn't the topic anyway. Nor would I ever cast dispersion on your own home, job or the way you live. But you DID say that "Sure, if somebody just handed me the money...I'd take it." Well, what if someone handed you the money because you busted your hump for it? And I agree that the vast majority, even most major 'Stars', have to give up something to get something. But many of the 'stars' seem to be able to juggle it and make it work. No, I won't say every one. But there sure are folks out there in the music biz making a pretty good buck that ALSO seem to have a happy home life. But IMHO, you kind of make it sound like you have to trade money for personal happiness. Or trade money for a happy home life. I personally don't think that's true at all. I suppose you could if you wanted. But just the opposite. I think having the money could possibly make your home life HAPPIER! It certainly can make Christmas more interesting! LMAO! And my point of view here isn't based on whether I think money is MORE important than a happy home life or personal satisfaction. I didn't understand that to be the question. But rather, ranking them in order of why I currently play drums. I did my bit 'for the music'. Garage bands, basement bands, playing TONS of free and benefit gigs, countless weddings, lounges, etc. Low or no paying jobs. Having to save up to buy drumsticks because "Hey, I'm a REAL (meaning BROKE) musician". Roughly 15 - 16 years of that. I got so fed up with it all, and the fact (in my last band 16 years ago) that our guitarist wouldn't even make the ATTEMPT to pursue it further (even though we were getting the offers of larger gigs) that I left drumming and music all together for 16+ years, until a friend got me to return to it several months ago. Oh, and how come every time someone wanted us to play for nothing, or next to nothing, they told us that we should do it for 'Artistic Expression / Integrity'? Since I've returned, I promised myself and my fiancee that I wouldn't go through that again. Whatever that means. This time around, we'll go as far as it takes us. No, that DOESN'T mean I'm so jaded that I think we're going to be busting the charts with a bullet. There's a LOT of factors besides 'being good' that figure into such rareties, anyway. But, all the members of my current band agree that we're not playing every "$50 + beer" job that comes our way, either. It's too costly, in terms of actual financial investment and in terms of being away from our individual home lives. And if, by some stroke of phenomenal luck, we DO get pulled away from our families to go on a tour, it'll be because the $$$ was there. And it was just too good to refuse. It's also why we're spending more time persuing recording, etc. So we can maintain that home life to a greater extent, yet (hopefully) put together some music that would sell well. Sorta, the best of both worlds. I hope this does a little bit better job of explaining my viewpoint. LOL, for me though, the bottom line is: The last time around, I DID it for the 'Artistic Integrity'. And it cost me a marriage and home live, and keep me virtually broke. THIS time around, I'm after the money. Whatever there is of it for us. And THAT'S about as much 'Artistic Integrity' as I can have. J.B. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 You know, I have refrained from posting to this thread because it seems as though you lose no matter which answer you pick; it's a loaded question! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif If you choose Money you will be judged for being a music whore, and being in the business for all the wrong reasons. If you choose Fame you will be judged for being an egomaniac ... again, in it for all the wrong reasons. If you choose Artistic Expression/Integrity you come across as being "holier than thou" snob, taking the high road while carrying a "starving musician" mentality. To me, the words Money and Fame carry a negative stereotype, while sneaking the word Integrity in the third choice seems to be a subliminal message screaming PICK ME, PICK ME!!! I'm not trying to flame Sidereal ... but the question sounds very PC (Politically Correct). This has nothing to with our earlier debates. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif So rather than answer the question posed with a specific order of the three choices, let me word it this way. I am a blessed individual to have my vocation also be my hobby. The Money I make from gigs & sessions provides me the time I need to further explore my Artistic Expression; it also brings Fame in that I become known as a professional and others desiring my music services. Fame provides more Money (which in turn fuels the Artistic Expression) and creates an public interest in me persuing my Artistic Expression. And last but not least, Artistic Expression gives rise to Fame and Money because people appreciate/desire my music; thus employing me or buying my product. So what we've stumbled on here is perhaps the Holy Trinity for Musicians. The three are separate (Money, Fame, Artistic Expression) ... and yet they are one; we need all three to work together so that our full potential may be realized. You can focus on Artistic Expression, but when you have a family and a regular, non-music, day job, it's really tough to find the time and energy to fully indulge in your Artistic Expression. I could go on and on about this, but I think you get the point. I'm simply saying that since these three areas feed each other, it makes it a lot easier to grow in all three areas. This is a positive thing, not a negative one; use it to your advantage. ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Originally posted by ModernDrummer: Lee - Well, I can't really argue your perspective. Because it is, afterall YOUR perspective. Yeah and that's all I'm really trying to do - provide different perspectives. I don't see anything "wrong" with your point of view either, it's just that there are other possibilities to consider. However, in your example of a top paid session drummer, you should also consider that the $$$ these people earn give them that exact freedom you're talking about. True, they may be possibly playing music they don't care for. Although, I've noticed the top session drummers usually only take the jobs that HAVE music they care for. Why? Because they make enough deniro from those sessions to pick and choose their next session. Again, the FREEDOM to choose. Sure. But that assumes you want to be a top session player and can actually become one. Myself, it doesn't really interest me. Being a session player to me would not be much different from any other type of "day job" because I'm quite sure I wouldn't enjoy 90% of the music I had to play while I was "climbing the ladder" so to speak. That was the case when I was a full time recording engineer. One could argue that had I stuck with engineering, I might today be in a position where I could pick and choose my projects and make big bucks. Maybe, and I don't diss anybody with that approach. But the fact that I chose to do something else (computer programming) which could just as easily result in a big payoff ultimately, allowed me to buy the equipment I wanted and keep playing in bands and taking on recording projects that I really dug, even to the point of financing some of them. I don't think a lot of things I've done that were really cool, would have happened had I gone the "pro musician" or "pro engineer" route forever. But you DID say that "Sure, if somebody just handed me the money...I'd take it." Well, what if someone handed you the money because you busted your hump for it? That's fine too, but it just depends again on WHAT I have to bust my butt for and for how long, and whether I think the money is really worth it. But IMHO, you kind of make it sound like you have to trade money for personal happiness. Or trade money for a happy home life. No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that IF you are spending a whole lot of time in pursuit of big-money gigs and they don't happen after some period of time, and/or you just conclude that you are not the type of player to command those kinda gigs (which could be true even if you're very talented - kinda hard to imagine Keith Moon being a session drummer for example... if he hadn't been in the Who it's hard to say what would have happened to him financially), that there's no need to beat yourself up over earning the title of "professional" musician. There are other possibilities. And IF you feel you are compromising your artistic expression or love of playing because you're taking too many money gigs that you hate, again, there's no law that says you have to do that. Nothing says you aren't a real musician if you don't earn your MONEY doing that. That's all I'm trying to say. I did my bit 'for the music'. Garage bands, basement bands, playing TONS of free and benefit gigs, countless weddings, lounges, etc. Low or no paying jobs. Having to save up to buy drumsticks because "Hey, I'm a REAL (meaning BROKE) musician". Roughly 15 - 16 years of that. I got so fed up with it all, and the fact (in my last band 16 years ago) that our guitarist wouldn't even make the ATTEMPT to pursue it further (even though we were getting the offers of larger gigs) that I left drumming and music all together for 16+ years, until a friend got me to return to it several months ago. Oh, and how come every time someone wanted us to play for nothing, or next to nothing, they told us that we should do it for 'Artistic Expression / Integrity'? Since I've returned, I promised myself and my fiancee that I wouldn't go through that again. Whatever that means. Sure, I've kinda been there, as have many of us, and understand the frustration. But, again, it sounds like you were trying to define yourself as being a "pro" musician and you weren't going to be happy unless you accomplished that, and you spent all those years trying to become that which meant constantly frustrated expectations. Now imagine you spent that same amount of time playing in bands, playing at clubs for little money etc., but you really loved the music you were playing, and because you didn't EXPECT to make a pile of money at it, you had trained in some other career that paid pretty well, or started your own business at something non music related. I bet you wouldn't have quit drumming then, you would just be playing what you loved to play and still have a life. Then if you HAPPENED to "get somewhere" with your music career and ended up making money at it, it would just be the icing on the cake. If you never did, you'd have still gained something, because you love playing, rather than felt like you lost so much because you'd expected all along to make your living from playing. If that makes any sense. You also wouldn't feel the need to pursue things at such a frenzied pace that it wrecks your home life or relationship. When you're trying to just make ends meet with gigs and/or crappy jobs, your only thought is to get more gigs so you don't have to work the crappy day job, so you take insane gigs and end up spending way too much time away from home and all that stuff that I'm sure you're all too familiar with. I agree there is no reason to take every gig that comes around but you can also make your choice based on how much you would enjoy the gig. We play a lot of places that may only pay each of us $50 a night but if they're fun, we still do it. If money were a top consideration we'd have to go after different types of gigs that we might not like that much. Definitely it is really tough to juggle a full time job, a band, and a family. Our drummer has that ordeal and it's hard to watch him go through it. I'd love to get our band making the kind of money to get HIM out from under his day job, but none of us EXPECTS that, it's just something we will try to do because it pretty much goes along with what we want to do anyway: write songs, record and play gigs. And I basically think the approach you are taking to your career sounds good, too. Like I said, nothing WRONG with it, it's just that I see a lot of people paint themselves into a corner with their expectations when maybe re-thinking the money situation is in order. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted August 31, 2001 Author Share Posted August 31, 2001 Bart.... Actually, that's an excellent answer you gave, and sort of the conclusion I found myself coming to. It *is* all related, particularly the money:artistry connection. Usually these things are considered opposites when really they're connected and one feeds into the other (the tao symbal suddenly comes to mind http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ). I disagree however that this is a PC question. In fact, my admiting that Money was first with me (with the qualifiers intact) was a surprise to me. My 'coming out' by admitting that can hardly be considered PC. I posed the question because the three projects I'm currently concentrating on each fit into each category (or at least the potential of each), with overlap of course. It was a bit of an epiphany I came to so I shared it with the group to hear the response. The contributions by others, including yourself, have made me look at the whole thing with an even greater sense of perspective. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 I see what you mean about the thread and question. I guess when I first read the question and some of the responses, I thought I was doomed to lose in that whatever I say will be viewed in a negative way. Not that it really matters ... we all have our own views and choices to make in life, regardless of what others may say. My concerns or fears about getting flamed was probably more "PC" than the actual question. I do think that the three choices have different priorities at different times for each individual. We all have to choose what is best for us and our situation. I think that we all agree that no one person can make a blank statement that "this is the way it is ... period". For me, all three of these areas are flowing nicely and working together in harmony. My hope is that ALL three will continue to grow and thrive; Artistic Expression, Money and Fame. ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Yes, I agree Bart's 'Holy Trinity' is true. In fact, maybe that's why it's hard to put them in order. Or at least, put them in an order that even YOU really agree with, and makes it hard to define one without mentioning the others. Lee - Yes, you're right about a lot of what you said. I mean, I agree with a lot of what you said. I wish I was able to explain myself better to you. My philosophies and views about this subject. I'm very impassioned about it, and as such, have pretty strong viewpoints. But I've already taken up more than my share of room on this thread. I don't consider myself a 'professional' or 'expert' on drums, music or the music business. In fact, I hate the context in which both those words are commonly used. IMHO, They're frequently misused and misstated by many so called, and self-professed 'professionals' and 'experts'. Which of course, only detracts from those who should be entitled to those labels. But, hey, that's just my point of view. People use them as titles to empower themselves, I suppose the point being to 'rise above the mediocre masses', LOL. Whatta buncha crap. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Anyway, ThanX A Million for taking time to post your thoughts and ideas! It most assuredly causes me to constantly think and re-evaluate. Not that THAT'S necessarily a good thing! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif J.B. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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