jethro_dup1 Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Hi, I know it's probably very rare, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience using an electric kit to trigger Software Drum modules and do sequencing?? The reason my drummer and I are trying to do this is the neighbor/noise/hassle factor. Acoustic drums just aren't feasible. So we are using a Roland TD-5 midi'd to a Mac running Cubase and a LM-4 drum module. The reason for this is simple... the TD-5 sounds are HORRIBLE, while the LM-4 sounds can be pretty close to realistic. Our biggest obsticle so far (any advice, please!) is getting the hi-hat to sound real. It seems that the LM-4 just responds to the 3 MIDI note numbers for hi-hat (Open HH, Closed HH, Pedal HH). It mutes the samples when you switch, but it's very unnatural. It sounds like clipping. I think the Roland unit uses proprietary control change messages to somehow simulate the "opening" sound of the hi-hat and the "closing" sound. Maybe it's a volume envelope or a nice crossfade, I'm not sure. MIDI is still a bit new to me. But it just sounds more "real". Unfortunately the TD-5 sounds just aren't all that great. Anyone have success or solutions in this area??? Most of the rest of the drums/cymbals sound great, especially with the huge additional kits we bought. Unfortunately, we've had a hard time finding anyone who even understands the problem. It must not be too common. Thanks in advance for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 I don't have much time right now (heading off to a showcase gig!) but I can get into it later. Briefly, I used to trigger with a Roland SPD-20 and it worked well for a while in midsized clubs, but I think a trigger malfunctioned at one point. I didn't have mics with me and was screwed (this band supplied it's own PA). Since then I've gone back to good ol mics and compression. It can work when everything works well, and the SPD-20 has some nice samples, but you need a backup solution in case things go wrong. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_dup1 Posted August 20, 2001 Author Share Posted August 20, 2001 Hey thanks for jumpin' in. We're actually just using it for recording. Live we may do a bit with a portable sampler, but we need to do tracking in the back bedroom. Anyone doing this??? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvergar Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Yes, its true. I have been a session drummer for 10+ years, and I recently bought a Roland V-Session kit. Actually, its been a boon for me. I have started playing with a ton of hip-hop, rap, industrial, rap-metal and experimental artists since I advertised my purchase. It seems that everyone wants a real drummer, but authentic drums sounds are less important in these genres. In all honesty, I prefer an acoustic set. But when it comes to tracking drums in the studio, v-drums are astounding. Since you can record the performance as MIDI (and edit them as well), then you have the entire sample/module world out there to use. All that aside, cymbal sounds are the Achilles heal of electronic drums right now. I am impressed with the Roland sounds, but triggering is a problem. It requires a different technique completely. My preference is to do an acoustic cymbal overdub when possible (and that requires a whole set of new techniques as well). I hope this helps. ------------------ "You don't just EAT the biggest turnip in the world!" http://www.theodysseystudio.com "You don't just EAT the biggest turnip in the world!" http://www.theodysseystudio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 I may not be understanding your question fully ... but here's my take on it anyway. Typically when you use an assortment of sounds such as in your hihat dilemma, you have to have a sound module that can handle this. In particular you need something to handle Modulation or continuous Controller information for the hihat. Check to see if the LM-4 can handle the Controller information (ie. Controller 04 or Controller 01). If the LM-4 can not handle Controller information, you are probably stuck with having the "clip" sounding hihats. The TD-5 and the TD-7 brains can handle the Controller 04 information. I don't know about the LM-4 sound module however. The other problem I see is that your LM-4 only has three different hihat sounds; that simply is not enough. Open, Closed and Foot hihat sounds are great, but what about all the nuances. If the LM-4 can handle the Controller information it probably has some more sounds to add to the scheme. You need several variations of open and closed to really get a realistic hihat sound, like what you would find on a sampler CD. When running Cubase, you are going to have to record the Modulations being generated by the Controller. If you don't, you won't get your various hihat sounds. If you are recording three different MIDI notes for the hihat ... there's your problem. There should be one MIDI note assignment for the hihat, along with the Modulation information. The sound module (LM-4) should decipher the info and make the changes accordingly. Tracking three given MIDI notes is limiting the module to flow between the sounds ... if it can. Again, it all depends on the LM-4 and if it receives Controller information. As a test, try playing the LM-4 using only the TD-5 pads; bypass the computer altogether and see what happens. Get the LM-4 to respond like you want and need it to first before you worry about tracking the MIDI information. Once you get that happening, you'll know that the LM-4 isn't the problem, but rather the way Cubase is recording your MIDI information. Hope this helps a little bit. Keep me posted! ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Why limit yourself to the LM-4?? that thing is seriously buggy, has terrible editing capabilities, I could go on and on...Its just good for basic stuff.. there are a ton of better soft drumsamplers....RM2 by LinnPlug, AODK1, Native Instruments Battery, Loopazoid, go to www.kvr-vst.com... I use Logic Audio Platinum and the EXS 24 softsampler and its incredible.. takes AKAI samples, Soundfonts, WAVE, AIFF,...I believe there is an EXS 24 available in VST format for Cubase users... I trigger from a DM Pro and a Roland Fd-7 electronic hat controller and it works like a charm... This message has been edited by captain54 on 08-31-2001 at 03:51 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetoney Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 I am chasing this one right now! solution: I use Cubase VST32 and Nuendo, I am about to buy Halion software sampler, to do this very thing. Here's the cool part. Halion now imports GIGA samples, and Jim Roseberry over at Studiocat.com has compiled the best GIGA drum sample cd on the market(I do not work for him or studiocat).It's called Purfect Drums. These will now load straight into Halion, also Halion can act as a VST instrument, so even if your latency on your souncard prevents you from tracking the samples in real time, simply record the midi info, and fire the track back through Halion; sample accurate playback!!! Not to mention way more sample time than you will ever need, as well as big samples to boot(some of the cymbal samples are HUGE!)Things that are a must in this scenario: a)PIII 800 or better, or equal,if on MAC b)seperate drive(depending on what you currently have)for all your samples(ata100 IBM 60 GXP series rocks) . c)512 mb of RAM d)decent soundcard if you want to go for live playing(RME Hammerfall or Hammerfall lite would be great). Anything with low latency(6ms)would work. Otherwise, just record midi as previously suggested. Fortunately all upgrades are cheap, if you need to do one, or all. Then once you have your performance nailed, just mixdown the drum tracks as regular audio files(so the CPU doesn't take the hit of using Halion anymore)and track the rest of your tune. I guarantee you will now have very usable tracks to work with, as well as being able to EQ and process them. You will also be able to take advantage of the 5 or 7 velocity steps in the Roland Hi-Hat. Tell Jim, Jason in California sent ya! seriously, the guy has shitloads of experience in this area, he is also a drummer(understands the frustration with Electronics D's). He has used it all!! JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetoney Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Sorry bro just re-read your post! You are on Mac, so I am not sure if GIGA sounds will work for you. If not, Halion reads other formats, and there are plenty of Sample discs around, including the new XXl stuff from Steinberg(as well as future Halion libraries). Give Jim a call he will set you up. Later, JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_dup1 Posted September 1, 2001 Author Share Posted September 1, 2001 Hey Captain 54, Thanks for the post. I am considering checking out some of the other drum samplers. I have some great kits set up for the LM-4, but I've heard they'll import them OK. So when you say that you've got the EXS 24 working like a charm with the FD-7 foot controller, do you mean that it captures all the nuances of the hi-hat opening (cymbals slowly getting looser) and hi-hat closing (cymbals slowly getting more and more muted)?? If so, does it use control change messages to do so?? And did you have to set those up, or was the EXS 24 already mapped to work with it??? You're the first one to say you have it working properly. Most samplers just play the 3 different hi-hat samples and mute between. Let me know about this, sounds encouraging. I should probably give some of the other software drum samplers a try to see if any of them tackle this issue by default. Nobody seems to really know for sure. Everything else is pretty rockin'. And we may have to step up to Halion (which I believe also imports LM-4 instruments), and get some huge drum samples. It really is convenient to trigger and edit in MIDI as opposed to live audio (we don't have a drum room anyways). Although we are going to track live drums next week just to have the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted September 1, 2001 Share Posted September 1, 2001 the Exs24 was already mapped....to tell you the truth I didnt do a whole lot of tweaking with it...I used the stereo drum samples that came with it and they were already set up multi velocity layers, all I did was change the midi note assignments to match what was set up in my DM pro...I'm assuming they were continuous controller messages because they pretty much said they were whenever I would refer back to my event list... Try the AO DK1...it works great with Cubase, its cheap, you can download a fully functioning demo, it loads Lm-4 kits....I pretty much got the hat controller to work to my satisfaction, I was getting a "quiet" open splash on the hat and a "loud" open hat, and all I did was load the samples, mapped the velocities, played a little with the mute groups, assigned the correct midi notes and I was done...I didnt do a whole of tweaking with it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Caigan Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 You might want to pick up a ddrum hihat controller- It sends eight different note numbers depending where you hit it and it sends foot pressure change messages to change the sustain. It's a pretty realistic sound for the hi-hat. -Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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