Am I unreasonable?

[Ross Brown]

Thanks. I really appreciate this group. The goal is to get gigging and we need the practice to get the set lists in order. It is not just playing to play, there really is a goal. I am goal oriented and hate when things get in the way. I feel a sense of responsibility to the rest of the band too to do all I can to keep things moving toward our goal.

 

I did talk with each of the others in the band. All agreed to reschedule. The three of us can run through songs all night long, the guy that cancelled needs to come up to speed with what we are doing.

 

I suspect I apprear hot headed to this group. I am not, just driven. I can see it, feel it, taste it, etc... we lose time when we miss a practice. I need to learn to ask better questions when I am looking for folks to play in a band with. I am hoping that this is not a recurring problem with this guy. It just felt like it was not something that just "came up", more like poor planning and/or assumptions. The rest of the band agreed that it doesn't work with kids there. They are much more patient that I (at least on the surface).

 

Thanks again. I'll try to "chill" a little.

[dcr]

I'm glad you've cooled off. You really, really needed to in my opinion.

 

I know people (men & women alike) who have had to take their kids along to their full-time, professional, paying jobs on occasion, or even cancel, just because things came up & there was no other option. Poor planning? Maybe, but definitely not always; and in my experience, usually not the issue. (And sometimes the lack of planning is someone else's lack of planning.) Low priority? Well, what is someone supposed to do with the kid, however "absolutely passionate" they are about the job, or the band?

 

You say you "need to ask better questions" of prospective members. Fair enough, but let's think this through. Maybe you could ask, "Are you going to miss practice a lot?" A "yes" answer tells you a lot, but a "no" answer doesn't, & who's going to answer "yes"? You could ask, "Are you going to have unexpected, last-minute emergencies?" But of course no one could know the answer to that! Life is unpredictable, & when you're the grown-up responsible for lots of things & people, there is just that much more that is flat unpredictable. I guess you could ask, "Do have a partner? Do you have kids?" Are you just not going to work with people who have kids? Some bands do that. Who knows, maybe someday you'll be the guy who has a newborn & no longer gets the call back. (I think there may be one or two fellows on this board with partners &/or kids, too. )

 

I'm speaking from experience here. I once went off at one of my best friends because he just wasn't getting in practice & didn't know the songs. That lack was holding the band back & it was a bad thing, but it wasn't a "passion" or commitment issue; it was a matter of hours in the day & life was taking more of those away from him every day. He was flat out, & I just basically told him his best still wasn't good enough. That is, I was the guy with the 3-story mansion down at the end of Jackass Lane. I learned something really important from that: however passionate you are, life comes first. You either accept that, or you go nuts.

 

Maybe for some people, the band is their life, so their band just comes first. This is not that kind of band. (Getz' point, I think.) So that means there just are some more pressing things & higher priorities than this band. That's not a lack of passion, that's just reality. And if some things are higher priority, then that just means that they win when it comes to a tie. This cancellation is just a case in point. What this all shows is that if this band isn't every member's whole life, then there will be sudden, unexpected cancellations from time to time. So roll with them.

 

A pattern of hinky cancellations is one thing. But this does not sound to me like you're up against someone's lack of passion, priority, or planning. You're just up against the facts of life. The thing about pushing against the facts is that they always push back harder!

 

And suppose that this was his fault & was totally unnecessary this time. What then? That's bad; but don't we all need grace from time to time?

 

I hope it works out OK for all of you.

[_Sweet Willie_]

I'm in the middle of getting a project off the ground. Before we decided to really have a go at it, the three of us had a pretty serious exchange about:

 

1. All having day jobs and what kind of time/energy that took.

2. Two of us having kids.

3. One of us about to get (and now just having gotten) married, and likely to have kids within the next couple of years.

4. One of the other fellahs moving away in about a year.

 

We concluded that we were all serious about doing this. We would all commit to doing work on the music away from rehearsal (i.e., don't learn stuff at rehearsal!). We would understand that rehearsals might need to be once every 3 weeks.

 

So far it's working out okay, but progressing slowly. However, this was our expectation. We are all holding up our ends in the ways in which we committed. We have found ways to make progress when rehearsal wasn't possible. For example, I spent Wednesday evening with one guy writing up some arrangements and charts so that we'd have better records of what we liked about how we were playing some of the tunes. And so on.

 

Portable DVD players are very handy. Indeed.

 

To answer the question in the thread title...yes.

 

Peace.

--Doctor Luv

[Bottomgottem]

Lug said:

No need to thank me, I put my pants on the same way as everybody else, one leg at a time. Only, once my pants are on, I make gold records

Cock of the walk, baby!!

[fingertalkin]

Being the young one in my band with the young children, I make it to our weekly practices. Fortunately, I have 5 of my family members and a responsible teenage niece that can watch them until my wife gets off work. My family comes FIRST. I come prepared to practice. I never make it to the band get togethers (non gigs or practices). My band understands for the most part. We gig quite a bit. Well by my standards for a hobby (3-6 times a month). Stuff happens. Don't turn your hobby into a chore. Remember it is supposed to be fun. It took me a while to figure this out. Nothing wrong with taking serious though.

 

Shane

[jar546]

Ross, I will throw my 6 cents in as a father of now all teenagers.

 

The guitarist's child is his child and not yours and he is the one making the decision to bring him/her to practice. The guitarist is the parent and is or should be responsible for their actions. I would not have said "no" but let them try it to see if it worked "for him".

 

He knows he is bringing a kid to a loud practice and should come prepared. You just needed to let him know that your wife nor you will be the babysitter. If the child's attendance becomes distuptive to the band, the guitarist will surely know.

 

I hope that you communicated your feelings to the guitarist the same way that you communicated your feelings to us.

 

His kid was not your problem UNTIL you said no. Then the kid was your problem because practice ended up being cancelled for the guitarist. A six year old can keep themselves rather busy & earplugs are cheap.

 

I would call him up and tell him no problem to bring the kid in the future UNLESS the kid becomes disruptive. Just set some ground rules in your house before he shows up.

 

MY Pennsylvania opinion........

 

Just be happy your wife is allowing you to have practice at your house!

[Ross Brown]

Well thanks for all of the honesty. I asked for it and I got it. I have cooled off by going to a lame movie (Night at the Museum). I stand by my decision of not having him bring his kid. I will back off a little on expectations, as long as it isn't something that repeats a lot. I have to be me, even if I am a jackass now and then. BTW, I did remain calm, cool and professional. Just really wanted some grounding with the folks here.

 

Thanks again

[Tom Capasso]

Glad that you cooled down. Let the real work begin.

 

You seem to set absolute goals (judging by previous threads, and I know that we don't see everything about your band life), and have struggled with other folks seeing things your way. Getz is right - you'd rather be in a position to employ these folks and set the rules. The rules you'd set are fair for employees, but not always working out for a band that is building something. So here's my advice (and you can join the masses in feeling no need to take it).

 

I would also get good and angry when stuff happens. I try hard not to express that and give it some time. Then I look for a solution vs. a pattern. In this thread, if it's the first time the guy has had to miss (or if it's rare), then there's a life problem, not a band problem. No pattern. If it's a pattern of abuse, you start taking steps to remove the player.

 

Since it's not a pattern, you need to find a solution. I thought kerk's was the best (I wouldn't want my kid sitting in the noise that my band makes with a video game, though my son would have been fine with that as a kid). You've had more than one member with a childcare problem - a few local teens who could take in a kid or two would be worth the money. Once that's arranged, you've made things better for everyone.

 

I am not suggesting this, but if you were really that committed, why didn't you force your wife into childcare whenever it comes up? Isn't the band that important? Of Course Not!

 

Tom

[Ross Brown]

Thanks Tom. Like the duck in the water analogy, the band and this player saw me calmly swimming on the surface. A matter-of-fact business approach. This forum saw me paddling like mad under the surface, pissed and questioning priorities.

 

From the responses I received, I see the consensus as 1) I should calm down and look for a pattern, then it is a problem. 2)That it is perhaps unreasonable to expect the same level of committment to this type of project than to an employee/employer relationship.

 

I agree with #1. I don't agree with #2, but I asked for this forum's opinions and I do recognize that a collective wisdom may be represented.

 

I do seem to be alone in my views sometimes. I am ok with that. I may have said it before, but there is a fine line between leadership and being a Jackass. I don't think I was a Jackass in this situation because I did a grounding check here on the forum before reacting. The band is back on track for practice this Thursday (they wanted to change the day, OK with me)and everyone is still enthusiastic. I asked the guy who missed last week to come up with 4-5 new songs that he would like to do (so he can bring more ownership to his involvment).

 

Thanks again to all who replied.

[Tenstrum]

Originally posted by yourlord:

Blowing off practice because your wife wants to get her toe nails painted is crap.

I personally get really pissed when I have to skip getting my toe nails painted!!

[Tenstrum]

Originally posted by lug:

I put my pants on the same way as everybody else, one leg at a time. Only, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

But you still need more cowbell....

[dcr]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I asked the guy who missed last week to come up with 4-5 new songs that he would like to do (so he can bring more ownership to his involvment).

I like that. It may not help; alternatively, it may not be necessary, if there isn't really a problem. But in any case, it's a creative & positive step, I think.

[Ross Brown]

yea. We'll see....

[Tom Capasso]

Ross said:

there is a fine line between leadership and being a Jackass

That's a line I cross all the time. The trick is to get back to the leadership side when you cross it.

 

I agree with dcr that your song request encourages ownership and participation. Nicely nicely.

 

Being alone in your views can put you in the position of being ... well ... alone. It sounds like you're OK with that, but it's good to think through something and be sure first. We're glad to help you do that here (without regard to which way you decide to continue).

 

My band has a gig on the Jan 27th, and we wanted to rehearse to add some songs. We know that not all 5 will be ready for the gig, but we were hoping for "Happy" (Stones) and "Sex Machine". I just got word that we're going to have to cancel. Seems we're still going to try Sex Machine... Stuff happens, but at least now I can blame it on Ross' band karma crossing over the 'net

That and the thought of tenstum sitting atop his Ampeg stack wearing sandals and showing off complex artwork on his toenails...

[Jimbroni]

I grew up with my dads band practice at my house. My brother and I loved it. It was better than TV or well we didn't have gameboys, just an atari 2600. Still they kept us occupied. Of course my dads band was a professional cover band and when they rehearsed they rehearsed. There wasn't alot of standing around so it was like having a free concert twice a week. They worked out alot of details outside of practice it seems like.

 

Now my band which is an unprofessional hippy jazz odyssey, we let the kids play along with noise makers and hand drums.

I think kids at practice is fine as long as they behave. No two kids are alike, so the only way to know is too let him show up.

[lug]

Originally posted by Tenstrum:

Originally posted by lug:

I put my pants on the same way as everybody else, one leg at a time. Only, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

But you still need more cowbell....

I recently got the new live Spock's Beard and they actually call for more cowbell during the last song.

[yourlord]

This is actually a good thread to ask a somewhat related question. I really want to know if I'm being unreasonable in this..

 

We are currently looking for a singer. We had an all day practice session scheduled on New Years day, and at this session we were going to audition a singer who works with my brother. He was told the time and date, and told explicitly not to get so wasted the night before that he wouldn't be able to attend.

 

Well, New Years day came up and all the members showed up and we had a blast playing, but the singer never showed up. It turns out he went out New Years Eve and got so wasted he was passed out/puking the next day..

 

I personally hate alcohol, I don't mind band members who like to drink a little, but I make sure they know if it gets in the way of the band they are toast.

 

When this guy didn't show up for his audition it was already a huge black mark in my mind, but finding out it was because he couldn't help but get smashed the night before it rules him out completely to me.

 

The rest of the band want to give him a second chance. I'm holding fast to the stance that he already put his alcohol/partying over the band before he ever even walked in the door. We wouldn't give him a second chance if it was job interview he missed due to drinking. In my mind we had a gig scheduled on New Years day and he didn't show for it. BOOT!!

 

But the rest of the band want to give him a second chance. I've learned in life a cheetah doesn't change it's spots, and this guy already showed us his spots.

 

Am I being an unreasonable jackass for not even considering the guy anymore?

[The Bear Jew]

Ross...

I've been in your situation--I've been "that guy." It's a lot of effort to be the motor of a band, but it's great when everything works and everyone is firing on all cylinders.

 

Whoo... but it sucks like an electrolux when someone in the band (or related to a band member) has a conflict with band business--tours, rehearsals, recording sessions, photo shoots, etc.

 

I remember when my old drummer showed up to an outdoor, winter magazine photo shoot with his 2-year-old daughter. At first, I was pissed... here we were, this frickin' heavy band of manly men... with a little, crying baby girl in a cold van, taking pics and doing a magazine interview.

 

But then I thought about it--the guy cared enough about the band to make it to the shoot (early, no less), but he had no choice but to bring his daughter, so rather than blow the interview and shoot, he weighed the options and brought the kid.

 

Lucky for us, the photographer had an intern (who wound up playing with the kid), and the interviewer had something interesting to talk to the band about--the whole "dad rocker" thing. We also got some great pics of us with his daughter--she's 11 now, and a print of the pic of her with us is framed and hanging on the wall of her bedroom. It's one of her favorite pictures.

 

Later, when things got more serious, and the band had more at stake (i.e. bigger money and contract stuff), I did end up firing/replacing some members because they showed (over time) they couldn't meet band obligations. This worked out better for everyone--the guys who couldn't do what we needed them to do were better off without the not insignificant commitments of a serious band.

 

Nobody will mind you being all "leaderish" when the results are obvious, fun and profitable for all. However, when your leadership means you have to make demands, suddenly you start to look more "jackassish." (Funny, he doesn't LOOK jackassish.) At that point, the line between leader and jackass becomes thinner and blurrier the more you have to assert your leadership.

 

You can only push people to a certain point with stuff like this... especially if they're not depending on the band for a living.

 

There ya go. My two sheckels.

[Ross Brown]

Very much appreciate the thoughts and experiences. Hopefully this was a once and done experience with this guy. I have a phrase "throw worms on it and see what happens" . Maybe this guy was thowing worms on me (or the situation) to see what happened. I don't like worms on me. He will throw them in another direction next time.

 

Maybe too philosophical for such a simple thing. Maybe I think too much. Hard to "know" what the right thing to do is everytime. Hope this works out this time...

[getz out]

Too phiolsophical?

 

Maybe you are too self-centered to realize that this guy was probably not "throwing worms on you" and he was probably just STAYING HOME TO WATCH HIS KID because you said he could not bring his kid to practice. If it is your house and your band, you have every right to make that decision, but what the hell did you expect the guy to do?

 

Sorry Junior, daddy has to go to band practice for a band that does not pay and does not even have a gig lined up or have a lead singer. Stay here. Don't touch the stove and try not to drink anything underneath the kitchen sink in the cabinet.

 

Unreasonable? Sounds like that is scratching the surface.

[Moop]

If the guitarist is flawless and doesn't need to rehearse, I wouldn't let it bother you too much. Lots of bands get caught up in the "we're gonna make it!" mode, and forget that it's all about having fun.

 

I understand your frustration, though. My advice is to just see how the next gig goes. If he is messing up your show, you probably want to have a chat with him. Otherwise, don't let it get to ya'.

 

-Moop

[Mike Bear]

I agree with some of the thoughts above with rehearsing at other folks houses. At times it can get a bit crazy with the kids. Sometimes if a kid is a guest somewhere else, their folks can lay some ground rules. As long as the kid is decently behaved. I think it won't be a problem once or even once every few months.. again as long as the kid is basically behaved. I don't think it's cool, if the kid is there and the band drinks, or gets a bit heated at rehearsal. There's my two bits.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by getz76:

Too phiolsophical?

 

Maybe you are too self-centered to realize that this guy was probably not "throwing worms on you" and he was probably just STAYING HOME TO WATCH HIS KID because you said he could not bring his kid to practice. If it is your house and your band, you have every right to make that decision, but what the hell did you expect the guy to do?

 

Sorry Junior, daddy has to go to band practice for a band that does not pay and does not even have a gig lined up or have a lead singer. Stay here. Don't touch the stove and try not to drink anything underneath the kitchen sink in the cabinet.

 

Unreasonable? Sounds like that is scratching the surface.

Yea, too philosophical... sometimes that makes it difficult to understand. If it is this simple for you, good. It is not about me, it is about setting priorities. Band has no no priority over family, agreed. But does that translate to if you have a family you have no band? For some, yes. It is about planning and priorities. I do not believe that something came up at the last minute and hence a problem. I believe he just figured his opinion was the only one that counted. Wrong.

 

We all have kids. We all make it to practice.

 

Thanks for sparring. I bet if we were sharing a beer we would find common ground on this. A lot is missing here, on both sides.

[dcr]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

Band has no no priority over family, agreed. But does that translate to if you have a family you have no band?

Yes, that is EXACTLY what it translates to, WHEN you have to choose between making it to practice and taking care of family.

 

For crying out loud, already, Ross!

[kerk]

Originally posted by yourlord:

 

 

But the rest of the band want to give him a second chance. I've learned in life a cheetah doesn't change it's spots, and this guy already showed us his spots.

 

Am I being an unreasonable jackass for not even considering the guy anymore?

Personally, I'm with you. More often than not, offering a 'second chance' is the easy out.....it keeps one from having to use the 'no' word. Getting drunk was more important than the audition.....will it be more important than a gig down the road? Are you willing to invest the time into him and find 3 months from now that it was a mistake? Granted, that could happen with anyone, but as you say, you've already seen one red flag with him.

 

The availability of prospects will have bearing on your decision if you 'need' a singer. If there are others available to audition, and you decide to let him tryout, I would at least bump him to the bottom of the list. IMO, second chances should always carry a price tag.

[dcr]

yourlord, I agree that someone's not showing up for their audition is a red flag. By the same token, from an autitioner's perspective, a band that schedules practices & auditions on New Years Day is also a red flag.

[picker]

I am gonna weigh in by saying that I agree with most of what I have read among the answers here. Passion for plaaying is a necessity if you intend to make it out of rehearsal and into the gig. Not allowing kids in the house during practice is not unreasonable either, but here is where it gets a bit one-sided. You say the kids going downstairs with your wife is a problem because of the effect it has on her evening. That is right and proper, she shouldn't have to be the band babysitter if she doesn't want to be. But if you are going to show you wife that kind of consideration, you need to lighten up enough to let the other guys do the same for their spouses. Family comes first. If momma needs a night out away from the kids and it hasppens to fall on practice night, she comes first, period.

If Mr Rhythm starts coming with this kind of situation more than once in a two month period, start looking for a new rhythm guitarist. Either he or she doesn't really want him to be in the band. Frankly, guitarists DO grow on trees. If you hang out in a music store for a few hours on a Saturday, you can find a dozen candidates to replace him.

Working with people on any cooperative endeavor means dealing with their stuff right alongside of them. There is no way around it. So you are either gonna have to find a way to be tolerant of your bandmate's family needs, as long as they don't unavoidably conflict with the needs of the band more than once every couple of months, or replace him. Picker's Widows are special breed of woman, and not every wife is willing to become one. If you start trying to put a band together around a guy with a wife who isn't that sort, you'll regret the time wasted on trying to make it work.

My ex wanted to sing with a band, and there just wasn't any spot for her in the band I was in. That made for big trouble. She resented every moment I was away with the band and she was stuck home with the kids. The other guys and their wives got stuck with the fallout from that situation as much as I did. It ended up being a pain in the wazoo for everyone, and one of the reasons why she is now my ex.

[Moop]

I'm right there with dcr. Try to keep it fun, man. There is such a thing as being too much of an Indian Chief.

 

The guys will break their backs making it to practice if the music/people/and environment are all great.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Picker:

Family comes first. If momma needs a night out away from the kids and it hasppens to fall on practice night, she comes first, period.

agreed, with a little notice, we would change practice night.

[The Bear Jew]

yourlord, I agree that someone's not showing up for their audition is a red flag. By the same token, from an auditioner's perspective, a band that schedules practices & auditions on New Years Day is also a red flag.

Agreed on both counts--but with a few other thoughts.

 

While the prospect of rehearsing/auditioning on New Year's Day doesn't have much appeal to me, either, I can understand why a band would want to do that--it's a whole day off for virtually everyone. A motivated band could get a lot done, and it can be a nice day to hang out, watch a game after playing, whatever. Sounds like a nice time to introduce a potential new member, too. Lots of time to get to know one another.

 

But people get weird about New Year's Eve, don't they? Some act like they have no choice but to get really blotto because... well... Hey, it's NEW YEAR'S EVE!

 

Riiight. That makes no sense to me, but I tend to be the odd man out on matters regarding drugs or drinking--I just have no interest in either, and, even if I did, I can't imagine an event that really requires indulging to the point of illness.

 

But, if the aforementioned "singer" agreed to an audition/rehearsal on New Year's Day and then proceeded to get so looped on New Year's Eve that he couldn't make the audition... Well, it doesn't look good for his professionalism or attitude, regardless of the wisdom (or lack thereof)in scheduling rehearsal/auditions for that day. It's a question of him not doing what he agreed to do, period. It definitely shows he isn't serious about playing, or, at least, he doesn't know himself well enough to say, "You know, fellas, I would love to check you guys out and jam, but on New Year's Day, I'm pretty sure I'll be neck-deep in my toilet, vomiting up tequila shots, Jack Daniel's, beer, a lamp and a small dog."

 

At least then you'd know he's aware that he might have a conflict.

 

On yet another point, though, not everyone who misses an audition like this is definitely an undependable mess who can't be of value to a band. You never know--this guy might be a really talented singer who happens to drink/party a lot right now because he's bored by not playing with anyone good. Joining a band might be the kind of thing he needs to release his creativity and curb his drinking.

 

So... in conclusion, I'd say even though he missed an audition, he might still be worth checking out. Let the guy come through one more time, and see what he can do. If you all hate him musically, well, at least you know that fact for sure. And if by some miracle he's good.... hey, hanging with you might rub off on him and get him to drink a lot less and be more responsible. Hey, it could happen.