Very slightly OT: Teaching styles

[Ross Brown]

This may end up being a bit of a long post, sorry.

Need a little advice from the music teachers out there.

 

My step daughter is learning to play violin. She is in 5th grade and has played since sometime in third grade. She has a good ear, she sings very well and she has no real problem with fingering/coordination. I think she could do very well if she wants to.

 

When she was just taking lessons at school she was in a group of students and not really getting anywhere. We hired a private teacher in June.

 

I have mixed emotions about the teachers style. She is intense. She plays in the symphony and has also been teaching a long time. Her students can play. She is high pressure during the lessons and my step daughter hates going. I can appreciate the style, but I am an adult, not 10 years old. As a linebacker coach, in one of my other professions, I tend not to sugar coat anything either. Good is good and bad is bad. The difference is, perhaps that I can always find some good to focus on (and some bad). I addition, I coach differently depending on the age group. Middle school kids need a different style than high school kids.

 

I am wondering whether or not to look for a different teacher. On one hand, I really think any student needs to look forward to lessons and learning and have it be a positive thing in their life. This teacher is abrasive. On the other hand, we all need to learn to deal with difficult people in life. One approach would be to tackle the lessons so that there wasnt possibly anything bad that could be said (but that is perhaps an adult trait and unrealistic to expect from a 10 year old).

 

Another head scratcher for me is that the music is so stinkin boring! Why expect a kid to learn music that makes no sense? It doesnt even sound like a song most of the time. I played some of it, wow. Is the thinking here that they cant possible learn to play by ear and they must learn to read? Along the same line, I would want to hear the song before I tried it, that doesnt occur (same logic?).

 

I dont teach music so I was hoping for some thoughts from those of you that have experience in this regard. I did ask her if she liked the violin. She does. I asked her if there was any other instrument that she would like to try. Nope. She likes it and I hate to see her quit because lessons are uncomfortable, but I also hate to see her fail because she ends up with a teacher that accepts mediocrity.

 

Did turn out to be a long post. Oh well

[ZZ Thorn]

A younger cousin of mine is aspiring to be a professional violinist, so we talk often about music.

 

I think orchestral music is pretty boring, but she loves it. If you daughter doesn't love it...well, she should switch instruments, cuz that's what she'll be playing as a violinist.

 

The classical world is very competitive, and probably nowhere more so than with violin. If your daughter has professional aspirations, my overpriced two cents would be to make her stick with this overbearing teacher for at least a few years, as she'll no doubt have to deal with overbearing teachers in the future. This should teach her to make sacrifices for something she loves - the work of music.

 

Especially if he/she's a good teacher in the sense that she gets students to improve. That and a work ethic is what she needs, IMHO.

[davebrownbass]

From a orchestral bass teacher and middle school/high school orchestra director:

 

The most important thing contributing to success in private lessons is the rapport between student and teacher.

 

This teacher might not be the right match for your daughter. You have to find someone who can balance rigor with interest. Perhaps when she's a bit older and made more of a committment she'll find working with this teacher rewarding. Certainly if she goes to college to study, she won't have much of an opportunity to select a good match, but by then she shouldn't need to worry as much about that.

 

Now, let's talk about the boring nature of the music, and the reading thing.

 

I read between the lines of your post, and guess your daughter is playing second violin...it doesn't sound right unless you have all the parts there.

 

But it is absolutely important in ensemble music that it be perceived as an important part of the whole. And the reading thing is vital as well.

 

I'm pretty bothered by the "orchestra is boring" argument as well. In my life, when something was "boring" I would assume it was because the concepts were beyond my comprehension. I just "didn't understand."

 

Nowadays, people expect all things difficult to be made easy and visceral, and they don't take the time to dig it out. This is a bad message we send, which tends to keep people shallow thinkers and artistically illiterate.

 

It is possible for her to be in a group that can't play well, and more difficult selections (thus, more interesting) are above her head. No problem. Redouble the committment and as the group performs at a higher level, there will be better music.

 

Second violin will still be an important part of the whole, but many times won't stand alone very well.

 

I'd like to know more about the program and selections she is practicing. I might be able to offer a few suggestions.

[Ross Brown]

Thanks Dave. Not sure about second violin thing, Ill check.

 

I am not saying orchestra music is boring. I have a great appreciation for its complexity and beauty. So does my daughter. I know the best way for me to learn and what I am seeing would not do it for me.

 

Interestingly, I never hear her teacher explain how to practice. I was asking her (my daughter) the other day how many pieces of music she had for this week and she could not tell me. I explained my technique of when I have trouble with a measure I focus on that measure and then the ones around it, etc. I shared with her an idea of how to focus her efforts, each night on one song and just review the others, etc. I tell her to try to make her violin playing sound bad and squeaky so she knows what causes that.

 

When coaching football, I hate it when a Dad teaches his kid techniques or tells them what they should be doing. They almost always get it wrong and I have to unteach something that Dad has taught. Kinda puts the kid in the middle. I dont want to be that Dad. Do music teachers hate it when parents butt in? I know how to play the bass. I dont know how to teach music and/or violin.

 

I agree that it is difficult to teach the value of postponing immediate gratification. The world today seems to focus on the immediate and only the exceptional few actually dig in and work to perfect their craft. The compromise might be incorporating some interesting music into the mix.

 

Anyway, my guts say that this is the wrong teacher, she is so abrasive. But I am still not sure.

[wraub]

Is she the only violin teacher available to you?

 

If not, go with your gut.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Ross Brown]

No, they are everywhere.... Can find another. Fortunate to have my Dad associated with the local symphony and therefore connected with that world. I'll start asking around.

[wraub]

Sounds like you already have an aid to your decision as well as your search.

 

I am of the opinion that a teacher she feels more comfortable with may make her practice more and she'll be happier attending lessons, thus, she may keep playing. This is good, right?

Also, some homework might be a good thing.

 

Good luck with your search.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Ross Brown]

Yes, I am leaning that way, but also think that not everything is all fun and games. Maybe it is not bad to be press a little!!

[dcr]

I've never studied an orchestral instrument, but I've known several students who have. My impression is that an abrasive sort of approach is not necessarily universal, but is definitely a common part of the culture--especially among the "high profile" instruments like violin, it can be a sort of boot camp mentality.

 

Still, this will be a very personal decision. If you're daughter's not flourishing, that's the main thing. But you're her dad & you'll have to decide what kind of flourishing you want for her.

[ATM]

Speaking as someone who started playing bass in 5th grade and was brought into the orchestra in 6th grade, it is a lot more fun to learn and play with classmates and to actually hear what the whole piece is supposed to sound like. Much the same as playing in a band as opposed to just plunking around solo.

 

Unfun high-pressure private lessons sound like nobody's idea of a way to spend an hour or so.

 

My two cents.

 

ATM

[Tom Capasso]

My kids took private lessons from their regular school music teacher. He was a overly demanding and actually picked on kids in the band (though he somehow knew better than to do that much with my kids). It made the learning more painful. Having seen plenty of other music teachers in schools, I know it does NOT have to be that way. My own grade school teacher was a bit demanding, but always showed appreciation for us as people and had a love for music (she attends my church, and it's great to see her).

 

As you have surmised, lessons and practice are not always fun. There is a certain amount of push required, and it's probably good for your child to know that you expect some of this stuff to be work. There's no excuse for not knowing what should be practiced. Even the guy my kids had would staple a chart in their lesson book and write in the date and which exercises to do. If the violin teacher is too aloof do be clear, it's time to switch.

 

One aspect of all of this is to take a good hard look at your child, what they like, what they can put up with, and what they can stand up to. Some hard work and complaining about practicing is normal, but if they are miserable (and it doesn't sound like your daughter is at that stage), then maybe they aren't cut out for music in this way or at this time.

 

When I say "what they can stand up to", it's based on something that happened with my daughter. In 5th grade, she was having a lesson in the house, and my wife was in sight at the dining room table. Marie kept missing the flats required by the key signature. Mr. B kept saying "no - that should be flat" as she was playing. After a bit, he stopped her and said (not pleasantly) "Marie! Do you have a problem with flats ?!" She calmly replied "yes - I prefer high heels." He laughed and was easier on her after that. I think he was the kind of jerk you have to stand up to, but it was a great moment.

 

Tom

[JLsound]

Just my 2 cents,

 

Is it possible for you to talk to the teacher? Maybe you can tell the teacher that she doesn't have to be so demanding with your step daughter. You can say that you're not interested in your step daughter trying to make it into an Orchestra at this time, and the goal of the lessons are to help her learn and have fun. Since you are paying for the lessons the Teacher should respect your request. Within the last year or so I have been teaching guitar, and my approach is the instrument should be fun to play. Like anything else, some students will go beyond playing an instrument just for fun, and some will be happy playing an instrument as a hobby. That should be the student's choice, not the teacher's.

[Ross Brown]

Normally I would just talk to the teacher. I use that approach all day, everyday. It works well. I am also pretty good at reading people. It won't work on this one.

 

Tom, I expect some sort of wisdom to come from her mouth soon (ie the "I prefer High heels" comment). She is a strong kid too.

 

My wife and i were discussing last night that she seems to be getting to the point that she is taking it in stride. She hates the teacher more when she hasn't practiced, which typically occurs every other week when she is at her Dad's house. He is a good Dad, just not good at insisting on practice.

 

The teacher is abrasive whether the lesson goes well or not, so it is not all about practice and doing well.

 

I also have a call into a local high school music director that I have known for years. I also respect his opinion. I will be curious to hear what he has to say.

[LizzyD]

I took piano lessons from age 6 to age 11, with an old lady in the neighborhood, Mrs. Dills. She was kind of mean and I honestly hated practicing and going to my lessons. She would scold me for not having my assignments prepared and write notes to my mother in my little notebook when I had a bad lesson, like "Elizabeth MUST practice or the lessons STOP!!!!!". In pencil, pressing really hard onto the page.

 

When I quit piano and started guitar lessons, having a cool teacher who was enthusiastic and nice really made me more interested in doing the work to become a better player. Although I took guitar because I wanted to, not because my parents made me as they did with the piano. I'm sure that had a lot to do with it too.

[Toby_Gray]

Try several teachers, you can usually go back to one if want. I went thru 5 piano techers as a kid before I had one that imparted great musical wisdom to me on how to approcah learning any instrument not just a piano.

 

I currently teach bass and I encourage my students to try other teachers if they aren't challenged or getting it from me.

 

I also beleive that with most teachers (not all) that you will get 90%+ of what they can offer you in the 1st four or less session.

 

Good luck!

Toby Gray

[Dave Brown]

Originally posted by Toby_Gray:

I also beleive that with most teachers (not all) that you will get 90%+ of what they can offer you in the 1st four or less session.

 

Good luck!

Toby Gray

Toby, you must be a musical genius.

 

I don't know what you mean by this statement...I generally keep students for 3-5 years, and they generally grow through a whole series of problems during this time.

 

Most of the teachers I know did the same thing. I took bass lessons for 4 years in college, with the same teacher.

[John50]

This may end up being a long answer, sorry!

I have three teenage sons...eeekkkk!! LOL

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

 

My step daughter is learning to play violin. She

is in 5th grade and has played since sometime in third grade. She has a good ear, she sings very well and she has no real problem with fingering/coordination. I think she could do very well if she wants to.

"if she wants to" is the key thing here

Despite having 3 musically talented boys, I still have know idea what sparks the passion. Passion for a particular musical instrument. The eldest was playing piano at a pretty impressive level even by age 12 - 13. He is still passionate now at age 18, and playing at an advanced level classicaly as well as belting out all sorts of modern pop tunes and other stuff by ear. If only i could play piano half as good as him!! The youngest (15 now) has had a passion for drums, which we encouraged, and started lessons at age 7, is now just 15, and even more passionate if anything (cost us a fortune with upgrading to better drum kits, drum mics, a mixer etc etc, but hey it's the least my wife and I can do!) However the middle boy also has musical talent, and showed early promise on cornet, didn't like it, learnt acoustic guitar, then we got him an electric guitar, and he can play very musically as has been proved a couple of times when we've got a (our) family band rehearsed for a family occassion such as my Mum and Dads 50th wedding do. But the middle boy just does not have the passion to do it. He is a computer whizz and very clever there. I guess it's part of their personality, but i really do not know how you light that little spark that ignites the passion for music, or anything for that matter. It's got me beat. Maybe it's a case of "you can lead a horse to water but......?"

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

When she was just taking lessons at school she was in a group of students and not really getting anywhere. We hired a private teacher in June.

 

I have mixed emotions about the teachers style.

I wonder if this teacher really does not suit your step daughters personality? I would go with your gut instinct, if it were me.

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I coach differently depending on the age group. Middle school kids need a different style than high school kids.

Completly agree. I'm not a qualified teacher, but have taught learners brass for several years.

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I am wondering whether or not to look for a different teacher. This teacher is abrasive.

While my old piano teacher was "old school classical" the worst we got was a light slap across the back of the hand for not having our fingers bent correctly while playing. Another (feared!) piano teacher in our town used a sharp wack of the edge of the ruler for the same misdemeanor which often resulted in tears with the girls apparently!!

Now that, IMO, is not the way to inspire a love of music!!! I'm not suggesting your step daughter is being treated this way, however, I get the feel that emotionally from what you say, she may figuratively speaking, being whacked over the knuckles with the edge of a ruler. There are a certain percentage of bullies in life, and this includes some music teachers!

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

Another head scratcher for me is that the music is so stinkin boring! Why expect a kid to learn music that makes no sense? It doesnt even sound like a song most of the time. I played some of it, wow. Is the thinking here that they cant possible learn to play by ear and they must learn to read? Along the same line, I would want to hear the song before I tried it, that doesnt occur (same logic?).

This is a really good question. Generally (I understand) that people are usually either strong visually (good readers, cannot play by ear, a case in point being my 18 mth younger than me sister who has her piano letters, the stuff that comes after classical grade 8, and is a superb reader) or good aurally that is can play by ear (which is the category I fall into. I learnt from the same classical teacher as my sister from age 7, and I gave it away at barely grade 5 and only barely passed grade 1 & 2 practical on piano!) A few people, like my eldest son (19) are superb readers (visual), and can also play by ear no problems. Thanks to the powers that be, he had a wonderful (and highly talented teacher) who was also strong in both reading and playing by ear, and recognised this in our son, and encouraged all his skills. Compare this experience to myself who can get by reading a single line of music for a brass instrument or electric bass etc, but cannot handle reading piano music unless it is very, very simple. The elderly lady who taught me was old school classical, so no room for improvisation or playing by ear. It took me till nearly age 40 to discover I could do a half reasonable job on key board with just knowing the melody, and having the words marked with the chords in front of me. That was a wonderful moment when I realised what I could acheive on key board. A shame I could not have had a teacher like the one I mentioned my son had to recognise my strenghts in piano playing.

 

I know I might have raised more questions for you than given answers, but I hope this helps you a little to find what your step daughters needs to realise her potenial are.

[/QB]

 

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

She likes it and I hate to see her quit because lessons are uncomfortable, but I also hate to see her fail because she ends up with a teacher that accepts mediocrity.

If she generally doesn't enjoy lessons, consider that it would be more of a shame for her to give up completly cause she ends up really hating it (cause of the pressure at lessons and attitude of her teacher). That, IMHO would be much worse than a small risk of mediocrity.

 

Hope my long ramble is of some help for you to make a decision.......

John

[davebassman]

Define "good teacher".

I beleive a good teacher inspires the student. Inspiration is a personal thing, some people like the strict approach, others like a relaxed attitude. The important thing is that the teacher gets results AND the student is happy.

 

My 2.6 (exchange rate ) is find a teacher that your step daughter wants to learn from. She sounds like she has a wise head on her shoulders and will tell you if the new teacher is too relaxed.

 

The "no pain no gain" approach is unnecessary especially at her age.

[Gruuve]

Heh...if a music teacher whacked my daughter across the hands with a ruler (and didn't even make her cry), that person would likely get a nice loosen-some-o-yer-teeth whack in the mouth from my own tightly balled fist...and that's only if a 2x4 wasn't immediately handy.

 

IMHO, with a younger kid, the most important thing is to balance it being fun with it being work. I think it has to be both for the child to actually learn and grow. The work provides the technique necessary, the fun provides the motivation to continue and actually do the work. I do not speak from experience, so take my words with a grain of salt.

 

I'd say find the right teacher. You can also do some things yourself to help make it fun for her. For instance, find out from the teacher what songs she's learning, then buy CD's with those songs on it in the same key signature and encourage her to play along. Or search the web until you find some midi files of the songs (maybe some done as a quartet with two violins?), download 'em, turn off the violin part that she would be playing, render the results as WAV files and burn them to CD...she can play along with a quartet. That ought to be fun for her, especially if she hasn't played with anyone else yet. I'd think it would make the practicing quite fun to actually be able to hear the big picture, and hear how her part fits in.

 

Glad to hear she has a strong spirit...I think in particular young women need that. Do everything you can to nurture that strong spirit!

 

HTH,

Dave

[Ross Brown]

Thanks everyone for your replies and advice. I love the amount of support and wisdom that this forum represents. We have decided to give it one more month but start checking out our options (other teachers) in the meantime.

[John50]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

 

IMHO, with a younger kid, the most important thing is to balance it being fun with it being work. I think it has to be both for the child to actually learn and grow. The work provides the technique necessary, the fun provides the motivation to continue and actually do the work. .

 

 

HTH,

Dave

This is very true. Well put.