Setting the tempo. Bass or drum?

[Ross Brown]

Got an e mail last night from our drummer. He is asking me to play louder because he counts on me to set the tempo and he has trouble hearing me. I do play loud enough, I believe and the problem is likely placement of the amp/monitors. I can fix that. Either way, I dont have a problem trying to solve the problem of him being able to hear me better. I am happy he wants to hear me and is comfortable with it being louder.

 

My question, of course, is does anyone else find it unusual for the drummer to be looking to the bass player to set the tempo? I understand on songs that I start first, but we only have a handful of those. My understanding of the universe changed when he asked me this.

 

This is a new band for me (3 months) so I am still finding my way.

[Dave Brown]

IMHO, the bassist MUST have an internal vision of the tune, especially the time.

 

Then, the bassist and drummer agree to play the same time.

 

And, in my case, the drummer comes to my rescue more often than not!

[EddiePlaysBass]

Well from what little experience I have I think it works both ways, and simultaneously.

 

Guess that didn't help much

 

Just be glad you have a drummer who discusses these matters with you Keep him !!

[getz out]

I agree with Dave Brown.

 

I don't think it is an or question.

 

I defer to the drummer in cases of conflict.

[Rowbee]

I think every musician in a band shares the responsibility of time-keeping - granted, the rhythm section probably more so.

 

But I also believe rhythm section share their understanding of time and therefore share the chief responsibility.

 

Although personally, I think it's nice to play with a drummer who forcefully dictates time as it just makes it so much easier.

[getz out]

Rowbee was much more articulate than I. Nice post.

 

If you have ever played with a guitarist that has poor time, you know the pain that it causes. You can take the tightest rhythm section in the world and put a guitarist or vocalist way off time on top of it, and it sounds like crap.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by EddiePlaysBass:

Well from what little experience I have I think it works both ways, and simultaneously.

 

Guess that didn't help much

 

Just be glad you have a drummer who discusses these matters with you Keep him !!

Not the replies I expected. I thought everyone might have issues with the drummer not taking the tempo "lead".

 

I agree that we must be together and in agreement. I really do appreciate his openess to discuss this and willingness to say what he needs. I never thought that would happen. Thanks for keeping me grounded and appreciated a good thing.

[alexclaber]

"IMHO, the bassist MUST have an internal vision of the tune, especially the time."

 

I think everyone in the band needs that internal vision of the tune and everyone's vision needs to be sufficient similar if it's going to sound good. My drummer got much better at playing at the right tempo once he knew the songs and could run the melody/lyrics through his head whilst playing.

 

Alex

[jeremy c]

In my little corner of the world, someone counts off the tune. This is supposed to be the tempo for the song.

 

Anyone in the band could count the tune off and in many bands it's always the band leader no matter what instrument he plays.

 

In other bands, it could be a different person depending on the what the song is. If the song has a guitar intro, or a bass intro or a drum into or a keyboard intro, etc., that person starts playing at some tempo or other and that is the tempo of the song.

 

The job of the bass player and drummer is to enforce the tempo.

 

The time is rarely ever an issue.

 

Once in a while a drummer rushes or drags and I will keep him honest. Once in a while there is a crazed band leader that wants to keep getting faster because he doesn't think things are exciting enough. There's no cure for these guys.

[moot]

Once in a while a drummer rushes or drags and I will keep him honest.

The occasional side job for most bass players unfortunately.

 

I am blessed with an impeccable sense of timing and it irritates me when a drummer will "experiment" with a tempo.

 

One drummer I play with changes song tempos given his mood or level of sobriety. We have words once in awhile and will defer to the guitarist for resolution.

 

Me - "Man, that was way slow."

Drummer - "Was it? I didn't think so."

Me - "Way. Trust me."

Drummer - "What do you think Mike?"

Guitarist - "It was pretty slow."

Drummer - "Oh. I thought maybe it would groove better a little slower."

Me - "It didn't."

 

It is my opinion that bass players should always set the tempo and drummers should always bow to our superior feel.

[Luke73]

I see my role as enforcing the tempo, rather than setting it (except for when I start the song).

 

If a song is racing away a bit, or dragging a little - I'll try to bring it back into line.

[...]

I agree that the bass and drums need to work together to dictate the tempo. That is a fundamental part of the rhythm section's job.

 

I was taught that in general the drummer is the default timekeeper in all music but jazz; in a jazz world the bass player is your default timekeeper. I have found through my own experiences playing that this is true most of the time.

 

After finding a drummer that can keep good time the real trick is whether or not the drummer in question has good feel. There is nothing more painful and frustrating than trying to play behind the beat slightly to make a funk song feel right and have the drummer start slowing down his tempo to match you. That ranks right up there (for me) with the drummers who speed up whenever the song gets loud or has high energy.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by mattulator:

Once in a while a drummer rushes or drags and I will keep him honest.

The occasional side job for most bass players unfortunately.

 

I am blessed with an impeccable sense of timing and it irritates me when a drummer will "experiment" with a tempo.

 

One drummer I play with changes song tempos given his mood or level of sobriety. We have words once in awhile and will defer to the guitarist for resolution.

 

Me - "Man, that was way slow."

Drummer - "Was it? I didn't think so."

Me - "Way. Trust me."

Drummer - "What do you think Mike?"

Guitarist - "It was pretty slow."

Drummer - "Oh. I thought maybe it would groove better a little slower."

Me - "It didn't."

 

It is my opinion that bass players should always set the tempo and drummers should always bow to our superior feel.

I believe my sense of time to be good and consistant. I may be fast or slow, but it the same throughout the song. Wish I could teach that.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

 

 

There is nothing more painful and frustrating than trying to play behind the beat slightly to make a funk song feel right and have the drummer start slowing down his tempo to match you. That ranks right up there (for me) with the drummers who speed up whenever the song gets loud or has high energy.

Yes! That is what was bothering me. How can we each be playing off of each other??

[...]

If a drummer has no sense of feel he/she is going to have to spend some time in the woodshed listening and practicing. Feel can't just be explained to someone and then they will suddenly "get it". It sucks to play with a drummer like that - I know, believe me.

 

If your drummer just has the "speed up when things get exciting" problem - a metronome can fix that. Have said drummer play along with a metronome when you rehearse and maybe suggest that they spend some time outside of your group rehearsal time with the metronome.

[Aldena]

I think experience plays a big part in this. Being somewhat inexperienced myself, I find I can really groove when playing with the drum machine, and can actually feel when I am ahead of or behind the beat on purpose. I do hear the tune in my head.

 

In the band situation, the drummer will riff off of me, and try different things, and I end up making adjustments in timing just to keep up. Most of our tunes start too fast, then get faster as we go along.

[wade_g]

Hello, my name is Wade, and I am not the best bass player in the world.

....

 

I've only played with about 6 or so drummers, but they were all very different. Some could definitely keep time better than others. And those guys were fun to jam with, because I could play a lot 'looser'. But in all cases, the performance as a whole is what mattered. If we were changing the tempo, I would be sure we worked our hardest to keep it simple and spot on. I'm sure it could easily have been me making the changes.

[mcbn]

I think it is important to get some time practicing with just the bass and drums. Run through a couple of tunes (especially where you are having tempo problems) and get a feel for each other. In order for me to play comfortably, I have to be locked in with the drummer fairly well.

 

If your drummer has tempo problems, you might find you have to drive the band a little more. Maybe you'll have to set up a seperate bass monitor for the drummer. A spare combo/practice amp can really work wonders in this situation.

[Tom Capasso]

I liked Rowbee's answer.

 

I notice that there are two skills being discussed. One is "starting speed", the other is "keeping time". I'm fine keeping time, but I can't always go from song to song knowing the proper tempo for each.

 

Sadly my drummer suffers from this as well. Where it's risky, we let one of the guitarists (who can remember that stuff) count us off. The band is usually fine from there.

 

Tom

[jeremy c]

Counting off the tune at the correct speed!

 

One of my pet peeves.

 

I just love band leaders who count off the tune at a bad tempo and then turn around and want the rhythm section to change the speed to the right one. Sorry, sir, you're the one who counted the tune.

 

There are some people who carry around metronomes and consult them before counting off a tune. (they have on a headphone or are just looking at a display with the sound off).

 

The singers just love it when a song is counted off so fast that they have to jam all the words in a hurry.

 

There are some people who have the tempo equivalent of perfect pitch....they can count something off at the exact same tempo every time.

 

It helps if you sing the song to yourself in your head before you count off a song.

 

In one of the bands I play with, sometimes someone will count off a new song in a new tempo while we are still playing the old song. It's a pretty cool effect if you can pull it off. I remember the first time I saw a band do that and I was very impressed.

[picker]

I ran sound for a national band a few years back, and the drummer impressed the stuffings out of me. The band was Sixpence None The Richer, and their drummer, Dale, didn't want a monitor at all! HE set the tempo, and everyone played off of him. And he was great. Never before or since have ever run sound for a drummer who was that indifferent about a monitor mix. It made me a little curious about why he didn't need one and most all the others did. SOme folks are just good, I guess...

[Fred TBP]

Depends on the "normalcy" level of the drummer. Some drummers are capable of intelligent discussion and I have no problem letting them do the time and tempo counts. When I disagree I do it on the side and it's usually a good discussion between the both of us.

 

Then there are the ones who are musically inarticulate ("that's not how Neil Peart would do it" and "who's Buddy Rich?" came from the same conversation with the same drummer ) or half-deaf (continues to play while you're talking to him) or can't remember how the song was played last week. That's when I break out the earplugs and stick a bass cabinet next to their ear. (and some of them prefer it that way. )

[way2fat]

My drummer wants the bass cab in his ear and vocals in the monitor. He has great time and a wonderfully light touch when he needs it. We do a lot of ,or try to, having the bass stay home and the drummer move a little back or forward on the beat as the case may be.

[tnb]

I would never make it the sole responsibility of the drummer to set the tempo. Doing it as a team eliminates any second guessing from well meaning band members. And besides, the drummer will love you even more if he/she knows you have their back.

 

I have been do a lot of musical theater for the past few years. Tempos are intentionally changing every few bars. The MD (music director) calls or conducts the tempo and they are not always the same from night to to night. The MD expects everyone in the orchestra to get the tempos in as few as 2 beats and if it's the rhythm section the MD fully expects for you to have the new tempo dialed in with a nod of her/his head. This has made me not only very conscious of the next tempo and tempo fluctuations in general. When I practice, it is always with a metronome and when I can I workout for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes with the metronome at very slow tempos. Subdivision is a must. Some people think that you can't teach good time keeping, I disagree. I will agree that some people need to work harder at it than others.

[Rowbee]

I think tnb makes an interesting point, that perhaps in some way these days, especially in popular music and this digital age, it is expected that the tempo of a song will remain constant throughout.

 

It would be nice if there were more mainstream(ish) bands these days like Led Zeppelin proving that doesn't always have to be the case - especially live. Songs like the Lemon Song and Dazed and Confused are good examples of intentionally drastic tempo changes which in my opinion make them far more musically interesting.

[Phil W]

Once in a while there is a crazed band leader that wants to keep getting faster because he doesn't think things are exciting enough. There's no cure for these guys. - jeremy c

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggh!

I hate this, and they insist on doing it on more than one tune in the same set!

[Rocky McDougall]

I'll throw in my two cents worth, will probable get a penny change. My experience dictates that the slower the tempo, the more important that the drummer is the time setter. It is the bass players job to lock in with the drummer. As the tempo increases this becomes less important. We play mostly Western Swing dancehall music which is pretty slow. The drummer has to establish the time and keep it accuratly. I love to hear a drummer and bass player lock in together.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Can't really complain, cos I've worked with a lot of great drummers already. And the few who rushed here and there, well I learned to keep them "in time".

 

That's one of the good things I took with me from the classic rock cover band I used to be in: in the 11 months I was with them I played with 4 drummers. In the end I really learned how to "make the drummer sound good" during auditions

 

My current country/rock'n'roll band HBC is a three-piece and when the guitarist starts a song too slow me and the drummer'll wink or nod and come in way faster, just to tease him

 

But what we do is sometimes play a song slow and draggin', and the next rehearsal play it fast'n'mean. We have some songs from the "old days" before we turned all country, like Therapy?'s "Diane" or The Pixies "Where Is My Mind" and we like to mess around with the tempos on those.

[Rowbee]

Don't know if you know, but I think Therapy?'s Diane is a cover of a Husker Du song.

[ATM]

Remember, when training drummers, a rolled up newspaper works very well.

 

ATM