Question about the FAA

[dansouth]

Forgive me for this OT post, but I don't have a television, and I'm trying to piece together the bits and pieces of information that I'm hearing. Has anyone from the FAA stepped forward to discuss how these simultaneous hijackings were possible? I mean, are all of those metal detectors a joke? This is incomprehensible to me. Again, I apologize, but I have to fly in a couple of days, and I'm trying to get a grip on (a) what has happened and (b) whether it could happen again.

[Randyland]

There seem to be two schools of thought (at least...). the first is that you are actually allowed to have a blade as long as it is 4 inches or less (check the FAQ on their website). The second, is that they were makeshift shards of plastic. I guess we may never know, but it makes you wonder. Once again, our thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved (which is ALL of us, really).

[lwilliam]

A knife made of porclein could also get through the metal detector. One report said that a cell phone call from one of the passengers that crashed near Pittsburgh said they were told by the hijackers that they had a bomb. Little did they realize - the plane was the bomb. As happens after any terrorist attack or threat in the U.S., airport security tightens up significantly for months after any kind of incident. One announcement said that the FAA was going to prohibit ANYONE who does not have a ticket past the security checkpoints to the gate areas, but I can't see where that would have made any difference here. ------------------ Larry W.

[masternfool]

Dan, I work at an airport, The metal detectors are only to arouse them of suspicious articles..If they sneaked a plastic or glass object in through their body or in their clothing it would never register..Laptops never go through x-ray because of radiation, A very easy place to hide a weapon!!.They are merily opened and then closed again,if that.I wear a classified ID,very easy to duplicate with todays technology!. What can we do short of body searching every individual!..I have to fly in a few weeeks I would very much like to see tougher security,at the cost of late departures...Best Harry

[videoeditor1]

Every airport I go thru....checks my laptop, my camera... the only thing they allow me to go thru the scanner with is my watch, my wallet, my ticket, my belt, & my clothes

[Lee Flier]

I was pretty surprised once when I inadvertantly had a pocketknife in my pocket when going through airport security here in Atlanta. When I emptied my pockets into the little bowl, I saw the knife and said to the security guard, "Oh, oops, I guess I will have to leave this here, won't I?" To my surprise, she said, "No, that's OK, just put it in the bowl". I don't think that will happen anymore, and I won't complain about it either! --Lee

[SFOracle]

The FAA has been criticized in the past for being too much of an advocate for the airline industry and too little of a regulator. The NTSB can only examine what caused a crash and make recommendations. The FAA often fails to act on NTSB recommendations, or allows airlines years to comply with orders. This particularly concerns maintenance and crashes, but I doubt they are more rigorous with security. Apparently they reviewed the security at Logan International several years ago and found gaping holes in security, but many of the security issues have still not been corrected. FAA agents brought all sorts of weopons onboard flights through Logan airport - obviously this has not been fixed. The FAA report on Logan also said that security at Logan International was horrible, but was no worse than any airport in the country. That should have been a call to action. Airport security IS a joke, but it is so because we value convenience over the (up until now) small risk of terrorism in the US. I travel at least one week out of every month. I also carry a laptop - but I do put my laptop through the X-ray machines. Last year for a period of about 5 months I had a Leatherman Super tool - with at least 2 blades capable of doing serious damage in my laptop bag. This is not the regular leatherman tool, but the slightly bigger model. Both blades are close to if not over 4". I had put it in there in one of the side pockets of my laptop bag and simply forgot to take it out before I flew. In that 5 month period I flew from San Francisco to Seattle 2 times, to LA 2 times and to Chicago, Cleveland and Newark New Jersey all once. I was never stopped by airport security at any of these airport. SFO, LAX and Newark are three of the biggest and busiest airport in the country. I am not surprised that the terrorists were able to get knives on board a comercial airliner. It would also be very easy to hide a bomb. Airports usually only spot check for explosives. They usually have a machine that sniffs for nitrogen compounds on the outside of carry on baggage by wiping a pad on the handles of bags and then putting it in a special machine. But they only spot check random passengers. I think one of the reasons they only spot check carry on baggage is that there is an assumption that people putting explosives on an airplane do not want to die, therefor we have focused on checked baggage above carry-ons. Also, why is it that airport security workers are often appear to be low paid and poorly trained? Maybe this is just my impression, but I recall once at SFO, we were late for an international flight to Fiji because of a ticketing problem, so were instructed to gate check our baggage. A United Airlines staffer, with a badge escorted us on the run to security. We were being given conflicting and confusing instructions through hand gestures from the security staff because a bag of scuba gear was too big to go through the X-ray machine. I swear, not one of the security staff spoke English - this particular crew was all Philipino - and I don't understand Tagalog. Finally, the UA lady went to a phone and called a supervisor to straighten it out. I could not believe that none of the 5 or 6 security people at the station could speak english. I understand that this is probably a boring and tedious job, but we really need to have well paid, highly trained personel in these jobs. Also it is a standing FAA rule that the cockpit door on all commercial airliners is to be kept closed and locked during flight. I have enough airline mileage points that I often fly first class - and the cockpit door is often open during flight. When it is closed, I'd be willing to bet it is not locked. I have seen numerous times a flight attendent just knock on the door and then go in. Even if the door on these planes was locked, it would be very difficult for a member of the cockpit flight crew to keep the door closed while a terrorist threatens to kill say a flight attendant or so. I think 100% of carry on bags should be checked or sniffed for explosives. If this means more expensive machines, then so be it. Curbside check-in is a wonderful convenience, but it should be abolished. No knives should be allowed on board. I also think it would be good to have armed officers - preferably in plain clothes on perferably all, but even random flights would be better than nothing. This is not so uncommon. I flew a domestic flight on Korean Airlines from Seoul to a city call Taegu - and I was told by my Korean associate that one member of the flight crew always carries a side arm. I think the Israelis have a similar armed person on some or all flights. I don't know why the transponder that sends out a "HiJack" message was not activated on these flights. Some have said that the terrorists disabled the transponder on these flights once they took control of the aircraft. It should not be possible to disable the transponder or the crucial black boxes on a commercial airliner while in flight. I think air traffic controllers were maybe not able to see the big picture. Clearly they could see that they had 2 aircraft which had made deliverate unannounced course changes between 8:00 and 8:30 in the morning. Two more aircraft diverted after the first plane slammed into the WTC north tower. Someone should have started to figure things out a bit earlier - but at any rate it probably would have been too late to stop the second aircraft from hitting the south tower - but maybe it would have stopped the pentagon crash. The terrorists were very clever - they took advantage of our assumptions that a hijacked flight will eventually land somewhere and end with either a negotiated deal, or the jet will be boarded and some lives will be lost. No one figured anyone would do what these beasts did yesterday. Clearly, a lot went wrong. I think we need to step up security at airports and on flights across the board, but we should not just focus on preventing a repeat of this exact incident. One of the reasons I believe this happened was because we were maybe too focused on one group - Bin Laden, and possibly on bombs or chemical/biological agents. This horrible event showed that a low tech brute force approach can be deadly. Don.

[WFTurner]

I'm sure as far as in country flights I'm sure the FAA is gonna take some drastic measures. I'm sure for awhile at least that any plane that makes any bit of deviation on radar is gonna have to have an immediate and damn good explanation and a squadron of fighter jets up it's arse. With a bit of work and dedication we can become somewhat secure again with in country air travel. To me, there's three issues that I can't see any human way to get a handle on concerning international flights. Issue #1. The weapons issue. Hey this ain't a new concept. A person with the right military training can use anything (erasure, popsicle stick..etc) as an effective weapon against a normal civilian population. Issue #2. We seen the new terroristic tactic develop yesterday the use of the homemade human missle as a weapon. In their first testing they had three successes out of four. They can train a fellow fanatic who has a no-blemish record, thus can get a passport, be given enough flight training to crash a plane at a desired target. Minutes before a destination is reached a trained crew (3?) can take over a plane and appear to going to make a ( no trick deversion tactics necessary)normal landing at say a Washington airport and in the last minute crash the plane. The truth that the plane was hijacked would be an after fact... after the tragedy. Issue #3. Doesn't apparently seem (?) to be part of yesterdays scenario. Overseas airport security and the ability to get something very very bad on these planes. I'm smart enough to know that our government ain't gonna tell us all they know and smart enough to know that the disappearing of the important figures of this country for the time they disappeared were the measures of a nuclear emergancy not of a normal or even terroristic emergancy. We got caught with our pants down for sure... but the handling of those international flights probably deserves some praise for our officials. They stopped what I hope was probably not but could have been a much more complicated and tragic scenario. These in country tragedies could have been merely a diversion. I'll leave you to paint your own picture. Issue #3, if not a factor yesterday will be a factor in the future. This is a new age of terrorism. How do we humanly protect ourselves via FAA and overseas regulations. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url]

[alphajerk]

i just went through boston 6 days ago and was searched for a childs toy phone. they are in no way slack there for sure. something ELSE happened yesterday. im not sure who i believe right now.

[FoxTick]

last march when i was at DFW (Dallas Fort Worth) airport, i walked through the metal detector with my leatherman (knife/pliers combo thingy) on my person and the [b]metal detector didn't even go off[/b].... at the time, i didn't realise i had it on me until i was sitting on the plane. then i thought to myself that if someone can just walk through a metal detector with a 3" blade, they can easily overthrow the flight attendants and the pilots hijacking the plane. just to think that these terrorists pulled off this stunt with box cutters. i have a box cutter in my hand right now and there is no more than 1/2" of exposed blade. the scary thing is, just about anything can be made into a weapon if you get creative enough. never underestimate the power of a plastic fork. as far as laptops go, i put mine through the xray machine all the time - never any damage. SactoG

[David R.]

Military training to use a plastic knife? All you need is to be loud and demanding. It is the perceived threat. Banks are robbed by finger point (finger in jacket), if the dude looks threatening, people will take him seriously. Heard on the news last night that the FBI had conducted recent tests where they smuggled dummy weapons on board 2/3 of the time with no problem. What happend on the planes was passengers thought they would be OK if they did what they were told. Had they known what would happen, as they did on one of the planes, they would have done whatever possible to stop the planes from finding their targets. -David R.

[Chip McDonald]

The *only* things they can do now is have a no-fly zone over New York city and DC. There can be *no* risk of this ever happening again. Combine that with a regular sortie of interceptor planes. For that matter, they *should* have no-fly zones over a number of highly obvious places, as well as certain high profile events. They *have* to do this. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[KenElevenShadows]

In almost all of the airports that I travel through, whether inside or outside of the U.S. I am able to carry all sorts of things in my carry-on backpack with me, including my pocketknife -- sort of like a Swiss Army knife. I've always thought the security seemed really easy. Asking me, "Did you at any time leave your bags unattended? Has anyone given you anything to take aboard the aircraft?" is not very high-security. The one time I remember being searched quite often and quite thoroughly was -- no surprise here! -- in Kashmir in summer 1997. The Indian Army was at the Srinagar airport. I was searched five times within about 100 meters. They took my batteries and soap. Does anyone know why they would take soap? Can someone make a bomb out of soap because of the glycerin? I've been saying for years that security really needs to be punched up. I *like* it when security is thorough. It makes me feel better. I'll wait. I don't care if I get there half an hour later. I just like to get there. I like it when I see military, police, etc. searching, doing security, doing their job in an airport. Bring them on the airplane. Fine with me. Many other countries seem to have trained security people checking bags, X-Ray machines. Cool. Maybe we should have more of that in the United States. I think it's nice that we will have more security. I hope that it doesn't slack off after a while. As important as safety is, why not? As important to the economy as airflight seems to be in the U.S., why not? Seal off the pilot's compartment, lock that door, have a security guard on board, train the flight attendants, whatever it takes to make things safer, it's all good, isn't it? Those images of the plane slamming into the building are horrifying, even after the news plays it several times....I wish this were a bad dream that never really happened.... ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[Nika]

Chip, One of the few "no fly zones" in the United States is over the Pentagon. FYI. Dan, Perhaps I can answer your actual questions. I am supposed to fly a trans atlantic flight on Friday (36 hours from now) on United Airlines, so I have been following this issue from many angles. First, people have been allowed to carry knives on planes of up to 4" in length. This included pocket knives, shaving razors, box openers, etc. On top of this, non metallic materials can get through metal detectors undetected. Plastic and ceramic knives would fit into this category, and ceramic chef's knives are rather easy to get. Further, there is reason to think that some of the knives may have been assembled (tape a double sided razor blade to a toothbrush, etc.) It is suspected that these people followed all security regulations in getting on the plane, and carried onto the plane things that are easy to carry on to planes (I can't imagine they'd do anything that would throw up a red flag?) As for your upcoming flight there are a few potential issues. One of them is....do you really expect to fly? As the FAA hasn't opened up flights or airports yet it is very possible that you'll be staying home - even several days from now. Further, the skies might be fairly crowded and airports might be pretty difficult to get around. As far as security issues, the following security changes are being made. It is unclear how many of these changes will be temporary and how many will be permanent. No knives allowed of any material or any form allowed. No knives to be sold in airports in any way (plastic knives for spreading cream cheese at the bagel place, etc.) No curbside check-in. No parking garages near the terminal. Ones that are will be closed. Tighter regulations on vehicles at airports. No non-travelers past security checkpoints. A thorough search of all airports and airplanes. I have also heard a rumor of some airlines/airports mandating that no carryon luggage other than a wallet will be allowed. This means no purses. I called United this morning about the fact that the name on my ticket was spelled wrong and asked if that was of concern. It took 30 minutes to fix it. I was told to arrive at the airport 2 hours early with 2 forms of ID, the credit card that we purchased our tickets on, our 8 month old's birth certificate, a copy of our marriage license, and be prepared to wait. For your information, Fort Wayne's airport is one where you typically arrive 15 minutes before takeoff. I would think that 1 hour would be extraordinary. 2 hours? Oh brother... I fear for those flying out of New York. I hope this helps. Nika.

[dansouth]

Nika, do yourself a favor. Give yourself more than two hours. I also heard that there will no longer be gate check ins, i.e. everyone has to stand in that horrendously long line whethere you're checking bags or not. Don't worry. The trip will be worth the extra hassle.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Nika: [b]Chip, One of the few "no fly zones" in the United States is over the Pentagon. FYI.[/b][/quote] I knew there was one over the capitol building, but not the Pentagon... If so - it's not big enough then, is it? If there *is* a no-fly zone - I'm pretty sure they scramble planes to intercept anything that appears to come near. The pilot was flying extreamly low, under radar; but certainly the plane either disappeared off radar in the vicinity, he didn't/couldn't fly it that low for 20 miles. Once the transponder was gone surely that notified everyone something was wrong.... It's very curious then that this happened. Regardless - they'll have to have a no-fly zone over New York and D.C., orbiting fighter patrols as well. If not - and they do this again (which would be just as possible if they can get on a plane - which is quite likely) - there will be riots here. This is an exact case of why we have/need a government. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[David R.]

Nika, at this time I would give yourself 4 hours before the flight to check in. Bring the latest copy of whatever, and a cell phone. I remember when I started flying, they would ask about your bags and I made some stupid joke. They pulled me aside and went through everything. My advise would be absolutly no jokes. -David R.

[Bonafide]

I understand that the terroists boarded other than Boston. Norfolk or some place that has a looser security. If you can board an airport with relative ease in terms of security, you can land in a terminal with tight security and already be in the 'secure' zone of the terminal, meaning you don't have to worry about metal detectors and such. This will change.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] Regardless - they'll have to have a no-fly zone over New York and D.C., orbiting fighter patrols as well. If not - and they do this again (which would be just as possible if they can get on a plane - which is quite likely) - there will be riots here. This is an exact case of why we have/need a government. [/b][/quote] Impossible, unless you're willing to close JFK, LGA, EWR and Washington National. Even then, what about the hundreds of other airports that are near cities. This is a totally impractical solution. Wouldn't a far less costly and more elegant approach be to install a secure door on the pilot's cabin of each jetliner? Do we really want fighter jets buzzing our cities? C'mon!

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

It's not the failure of the FAA that a bunch of people bought airplane tickets and then got on some airplanes. It might be their fault that the second plane hit the WTC. It seems like twenty minutes is enough time to figure out what's going on. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who orders a commercial jet plane full of people to be shot down over New York airspace. I'd love to lay some blame somewhere. But I think it would be misguided. I am a little pissed off at Bush and his people. What's this BS about them being sure that Airforce 1 was a target? Was there another plane in the air? Evidently no. They are simply trying to make Bush look better by indicating that he was in danger. Which it seems he was NOT.

[Botch.]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] I knew there was one over the capitol building, but not the Pentagon... If so - it's not big enough then, is it? If there *is* a no-fly zone - I'm pretty sure they scramble planes to intercept anything that appears to come near. The pilot was flying extreamly low, under radar; but certainly the plane either disappeared off radar in the vicinity, he didn't/couldn't fly it that low for 20 miles. Once the transponder was gone surely that notified everyone something was wrong.... It's very curious then that this happened. Regardless - they'll have to have a no-fly zone over New York and D.C., orbiting fighter patrols as well. If not - and they do this again (which would be just as possible if they can get on a plane - which is quite likely) - there will be riots here. This is an exact case of why we have/need a government. [/b][/quote] I'd be surprised that there is any kind of a no-fly zone over the Pentagon; you can see it out the left-hand windows, downwards at a 45-degree angle, on final approach into DC from the southwest!! (In retrospect, probably not the best place to have it!).

[Danny M]

[quote]What's this BS about them being sure that Airforce 1 was a target? Was there another plane in the air? Evidently no. They are simply trying to make Bush look better by indicating that he was in danger. Which it seems he was NOT.[/quote] No BS present. The plane could easily have been targeted on the ground, and it would certainly be feasible to put a small plane in the air from a strip in the countryside to ram Air Force 1 in the air. I would wager that even if you know that all commercial flights are accounted for you could still have an aircraft up there, especially if it's got a radar jammer. (I'm sure a terrorist group could buy a reasonably good ECM system off of a nation trying to make some extra cash.) Although jamming indicates the presence of an aircraft, it prevents you from tracking it with any real precision. All that aside though, I think that in the face of any terrorist action on this scale, the President's plane would have a close support fighter escort, just like on Tuesday. I think that, although our government certainly doesn't tell us everything, a lot of United States citizens have "conspiracy theory paranoia" on the brain. I think it's fair to say that when two massive towers are brought down and the highest seat of military operations gets a facelift from a stolen jet, you don't send the President directly into the area without a major escort. You also don't just move government officials across the street. As far as the anti-Bush rhetoric goes, I'll just say that it really frustrates me. Now is the time to combine and hit with the force of a mighty avalanche. We can split hairs later. -Danny ------------------ Less is not more. More is more.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

I have nothing against the actions of the Secret Service or whoever decided to move Airforce 1. They should not take chances with the President's safety. But if there was another plane or another tangible threat, why haven't they said anything explicit about it? This is not anti-Bush rhetoric. I'm just extremely upset by all of this (I live in NYC and my girlfriend was in the WTC when the 1st plane hit), and I don't want government misinformation to interfere with the whole picture. If there are planes up there with radar jamming equipment, I want to know. I'll get the hell out of Dodge. If they are just trying to make Bush look better (more likely story), then I'm pissed off that they're putting misinformation out there just to add spin.

[WFTurner]

When any president or official goes into hiding no matter what your political preference, don't hold it against them. Saving their arse could quite probably save your's and your way of life. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Even though they didn't there was a lot of consideration of taking these kind of hiding actions when JFK was killed. They didn't. Even the worst and dumbest presidents know in any situation if possible they need to show a presence of being in control. In my life I've never known a situation (including) the day of JFK where my leader wasn't visible. Till Tuesday... think hard about that. I'm a republican but didn't vote for Bush, hadn't decided what I made of him... But today I have faith in him. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url]

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

They have every right to move the President around to safe locations. They don't have to give a reason. Any perceived threat on his life is reason enough. But in this case, they made a point of saying that Airforce 1 was actually a target. They made a point of saying that this is a FACT. As someone who waited for three hours not knowing where my girlfriend was (it turns out she was in the $^$&#** lobby of the former WTC when the plane hit), I am extremely frustrated by the lack of good information. So when the President's men say that AF 1 was a target but then fail to give any real explanation (was there another plane? a bomb? what? They're not saying, and I suspect the whole thing's made up to make Bush look better.), it scares the hell out of me. I can smell the ashes of the WTC right now. I want to know what other threats I face.

[Danny M]

[quote]If they are just trying to make Bush look better (more likely story), then I'm pissed off that they're putting misinformation out there just to add spin.[/quote] I really, really doubt this. Bush is doing a good job at looking good just by handling the situation. The potential boost to his public image afforded by saying that Air Force 1 was a potential target is practically negligible compared to what his actions have and will continue to do. I completely forgot about the issue of Air Force 1 being a potential target after about five minutes. I would caution that there is probably a list of potential terrorist targets, with "threat" indices printed next to them, and that Air Force 1 happened to be close to the top this time (just like the White House and the capitol building.) I think the officials in charge of this information just stated that these targets were especially likely given the nature of the attack, without any thought of bumping up anyone's image or drawing attention away from the small troop of lemmings smuggling papaya into a DC suburb. (Which is a sign of the apocalypse, you know, because if you hold the last page of the Bible up to the light and look very hard you can almost see a shape that looks like a lemming holding a papaya.) Too little thought makes one incapable of action. Too much has the same effect. -Danny ------------------ Less is not more. More is more.

[meccajay]

Seriosly guys I dont think we'll have to worry about planes and airline safety too much in the future. I think between beefed up security and FAA regs, and the fact that new ways of thinking are being developed by these terrorists lately they'll be no more plane attacks. Remember they tried bombings at the WTC before, then the United Nations, and bridges and Tunnels and those all failed. Now they are seriously a step ahead. Many are thinking that once we retaliate its our schools, stadiums, hospitals and malls which will be next!! Horrible, new kinda war folks...

[c1131hotmail.com]

The other thing to thing about is any ground worker could have probably stashed whatever on the plane including the people who load the food etc.............. just something to think about.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

I'll admit that I'm probably overreacting. I'm pretty upset right now. Up until a few months ago, my girlfriend actually worked in one of the buildings that collapsed. We watched it collapse together on TV. Also, we ride the subway underneath the WTC every day. And we know of people who are still missing. My senses are hightened, and I suppose I'm hypersensitive. The flow of information is excruciatingly slow, and I'm looking for facts.

[meccajay]

Well Macartie, judging by the fact that only 90-100 bodies have been recovered in 2 days it will be weeks before we know what happened. Also, the threat of builing collapsing makes it very hard for these dedicated workers. It appears the American Express building collapsed today(not yet confirmed this) and more to follow.