Song structure

[owens hound]

The thread C. Alex started about what we do with our musical ideas got me thinking about song structure.

My question is, when writing/composing, do you have a set song structure before you start or do you just go with the flow of the creative juices?

Eg: verse 1, verse 2, chorus, verse 3, bridge, chorus, outro.

 

At this point it seems like I usually let what ever comes out form what the structure is going to be. I also thought that if the structure is already planned out, it might be easier to fill in the blanks(verses/chorus/bridge). I'm not usually too happy with my final product and also seem to have trouble knowing when I'm actually 'done' and a song is actually finished.

How about you?

 

All opinions and comments welcome.

[g.]

Verse/chorus and verse/chorus/bridge variants comprise probably 90% of all pop music. When you get into riff-type bands it can seem like you are dealing with an approach that is modular, with some songs abruptly changing keys/tonal centers for a lot of the riffs, and can easily string a lot of modules together - more than three anyway, with or without vocals on top of them.

 

I really haven't thought about it too much when writing popular forms. I just like to have twists on the obvious and if something seems like it would be boring {to me - others seem to get popular on boring repetitive stuff all the time;} I change it up with whatever I think would be cool.

 

I do this when "spontaneously composing" at jams too, though I have to reel it in when there are players who don't have good ears and are easily confused. So lately, when I'm just jamming alone, stream-of-conciousness stuff, I've noticed that I've become simplistic in structure from that association, so I've been spurring myself to get back to a little more sophistication again in the turnarounds, and in introducing new changes/sections. Just for my own sake.

[Eric VB]

The most recent discussion on form in Songwriting and Composition can be found here .

 

As far as knowing when you are done, I think the lyrics will dictate that, more or less. (Does it seem like something more needs to be said? If you add anymore does it just seem like you're rambling on?) If you're writing instrumental compositions it can be a bit trickier, and depends quite a bit on genre.

[g.]

Immerse in some sophisticated pop music by XTC or Rheostatic or someone who can write extended forms; study some of the stuctures used in non-pop like the Sonata form, check out some of the more ambitious metal spin-offs where much may still be pentatonic power chorded, but also a lot of chromatic or unrelated abrupt modulations - or some progressive rock.

 

Lyrics, I suspect get added at times, when interesting musical ideas get appended... As a writer I know that I don't always place lyrics at the primary nexus, though I do place a priority on flow and continuity of story-telling or mood.

[Bassplayerjoe]

intro/verse/pre/chorus/verse2/pre/chorus/bridge/chorus/outro

 

That is how we do it. I usually write lyrics first then root notes, after that I get my creative juices flowing, as you said earlier.

[Quinn]

No right/wrong answers to this question, but I tend to write in conventional pop structures, too. Usually I start with a melodic hook, craft a chorus, then flesh out the tune with verses.

 

Once I have the main concept of the tune, plugging in lyrics for the verses isn't usually too hard. I try to be as concise as possible, so I'll usually write a lot of verses and keep only the strongest three or four. If the tune needs some variation, I'll add a bridge, if not I won't. I usually don't come up with intros or outros until I'm ready to record a demo.

 

p.s. This book is really, really good:

 

How To Write Songs On Guitar

[ArwinH]

My stuff varies a lot in form, and I definitely don't follow the popular structures, it's just the way I write I guess. I'm actually going to go out some time this week to a friends house and record a lot of my idead down so a that I can start using these ideas with a dummer and guitar player that I jammed with yesterday. It'll probably take a few listens for them to get it.

[g.]

I actually had to practice writing in AB[C] formats concisely ; } ...I was used to long extended multiforms and morphing, shifting textural stuff like you might find in a lot of soundtracks. Sure, a lot of it grooved, and people seemed to enjoy it, but at some point I wanted to see if I could also tackle popular songcraft and not get mowed down by it.

 

I just took it back to those first few arrangements I did for big band /stage band (Mancini was kind of a hero, and he really rewrote a lot of good pop, and jazz and latin, as well as being a great composer) or my first rock cover bands, which were sometimes sophisticated yet accessible verse-chorus-bridge type structures with a few twiddly bits here and there for ensemble work, extended intros and restatements thereof, etc.

 

But some of the rock of that time that I seemed to have a lot of songwriting chops behind it so I was fortunate. If I was just starting now, I'd have to place my focus differently or look elsewhere for stuff I could sink my teeth into probably...

[g.]

Nobody has said Beatles" yet here either; most of their stuff from any period (save for maybe the earliest stuff which is pretty staid) is worth taking apart and seeing how it ticks - and one gets to dig into George Martin's wonderful skills as an orchestrator/contributor. They are by no means the only people plying sophisticated songwriting hearkening back to Tin Pan Alley and beyond, but they do bear mention.

 

Lieber and Stoller also wrote some catchy and sometimes tricky stuff for many many artists, and much has been later covered by others including David Bromberg. Purveryors of excellence for the hit parade in the earlier days of pop/r&r, methinks.

 

Motown, another good place to look beyond just the cool basslines and see some songcraft.

[jlrush]

Well said GB!

I'm not a songwriter, but certainly recognize (IMO) good writing. It seems to me that the best songs tell the story with the fewest words possible, with good hooks. The Beatles, Lieber/Stoller and Motown are good examples.

As a kid I never paid attention to who wrote any of the Motown stuff, and since have wondered if there were any teams or individuals who wrote songs for that label.

Any input GB?

[alexclaber]

Smokey Robinson, Barrett Strong, Holland/Dozer/Holland, Marvin Gaye, William Stevenson, and Norman Whitfield are some of the most significant Motown contributors.

 

I just go with the flow... Therefore some songs have typical arrangements, whilst others are more convoluted or off the wall. It feels like I have little choice in the matter, to be honest!

 

Alex

[owens hound]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'll be trying to use some of the tips provided and hopefully my songwriting/structure will improve.

I'll also try to check out the book Quinn suggested.

Hey GB, I've liked XTC for quite a while now and had actually forgotten about the Rheostatics. I saw them in the mid 90's at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto when they opened for The Tragically Hip. The Rheostatics are/were awesome. I love their cover of "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" as well as "Claire" and many more. I'll check them out again.

I'll also check out Motown and the Beatles. I always seem to learn something when I listen or relisten to music.

 

Thanks,

Jason