I am just no good with this amp thing.

[kosta]

So long story short i need a new amp, good anough to battle my friends 100 watt guitar amp (of the fender persuation i believe.)

I decided to go to my local long and mcquade and check out a few. My birthday is coming up so parents agreeing to cover half of an amp, and i tried out a 200 watt yorkville amp. http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=32&cat=15

(Either the XM200 or the XM200T i forget which)

It sounded great and everything, and 200 watts seems to be loud enough to dominate a good sized room but here is where the problem lies.

 

I am just no good with this amp thing. All i know is that the 200 is a high number compared to the 15 watter i had before, but i hear all of you talking about all your electronic mumbo jumbo and i get lost.

 

So please help me in telling me why this would or would not be a good amp with your extended knowledge of electronics and all that jazz.

Also what is the difference between the 2 models i specified and which is better. Thanks a plenty.

 

I may want to use this amp to gig if it is powerful enough. Thanks in advace guys, and keep on bassin.

[ChrisOfDoom]

200 watts might not be enough to keep up with a hundred watts of guitar amp. It could probably play loud enough but you will have to push it pretty hard to do so, which will compromise sound quality and wear down your amp pretty fast. I just learned this one the hard way because my amp is on the verge of crapping out.

 

A few pieces of information that will help the experts here guide your decision. What style of music do yo play? How many people are in your band? What is your budget?

 

Personally depending on how much money I had I would scout out Ebay for an SWR rig, but thats me and my ears not you and yours.

[musicfiend]

It will not be loud enough to copete with a hundred watt amp. Genereally speaking you will want about four times the power that your guitar player has. I would recommend a 400 watt head and a 4x10 speaker cab. This is pretty much the norm. But what sound do you like? What are your requirements? What have you played? What do you like? How much money do you have to spend? I would search the used market for the best results.

[kosta]

I'm not too sure what kind of sound im trying to produce, but i do play a big part in the songs my band plays. 4 piece, singer, guitarist, bass, drums. Basically right now im using the fender frontman 15 that came with my squire basspack and that aint cuttin it.

 

I use a geddy lee signature bass if that helps at all, my budget is probably up to 850 canadian, and i do not have an ebay account or anything.

 

Still any help would be great and i could prob make an account.

[dohhhhh6]

They have a used one of that amp at talkbass.com 's classifieds.

[ChrisOfDoom]

On that budget you could probably find a used SWR super redhead combo, which is quite the mean sounding amp, thats 300 watts I think. Again, thats what I would do but thats me.

 

Go to music stores, try out stuff thats over your budget, find what you like, then hit up ebay.

[BenLoy]

You'll need at least a 300 watt amp to compete with a 100 watt guitar amp.

[kosta]

What is this madness! Why are guitar amps infused with the power of the gods, while bass amps are mere mortal in power! We should start a union.

 

Anywho, anyone got any amp suggestions for me in my price range or anything, or any finds in auctions if you've seen em? Thanks a plenty again.

[ChrisOfDoom]

Originally posted by kosta:

What is this madness! Why are guitar amps infused with the power of the gods, while bass amps are mere mortal in power! We should start a union.

Higher pitched noises take A LOT less power to amplify then bass frequencies. Bass frequencies are unnatural to the human ear and need to be louder for us to hear them.

 

Again, my vote would be an SWR super redhead combo, or if you want a seperate amp/cab an SWR "workingmans" rig. Also I think Ashdown makes some very affordable amps, but they have a very distinctive sound that I don't personally like, but a lot of people do.

 

Seriously, try out as many things as you can, then find it on ebay.

[musicfiend]

I would say that youd be best with an swr wm series amp, I think those amps are outstanding values. Couple a nice head with a 410, I wouldnt think that a 210 would cut it. What does 850 canadian signify in american dollars. Maybe a peek at avatar cabinets wouldnt hurt.

[musicfiend]

http://www.bassemporium.com/item.php?sku=00D401

 

http://www.basspalace.com/dynamic/displayamp/Amplifier/2530

 

http://www.basspalace.com/dynamic/displayamp/Amplifier/3748

 

http://www.bassnw.com/usedamps.htm

 

http://www.bassnw.com/images/Used%20Amps%20and%20Cabs/Ampeg%20SVTIII%20with%20SKB%20rack_499.jpg

 

http://www.bassnw.com/images/Used%20Amps%20and%20Cabs/Ashdown%20MAGC410T200_399.jpg

 

http://www.bassnw.com/images/Used%20Amps%20and%20Cabs/Eden%20D410T_8_ohm_499.jpg

 

http://www.bassnw.com/images/Used%20Amps%20and%20Cabs/SWR%20SM400S_599_N.jpg

[mcbn]

Check out AVATAR . Dave is easy to work with. Check out the Ashdown MAG 300 + Avatar Cab (212 or 410) combo's that he is selling on the webpage. See if you can try out some Ashdown gear first to decide if you like it.

[alexclaber]

Seconded - Avatar Speakers is the place for the most bang for your buck. The Ashdown MAG head (or one of the Hartke heads) combined with the B212 will get you heard with solid tone. But only if you explain to your 100W guitarist that the volume knob also turns anti-clockwise...

 

Alex

[cloclo]

I have to disagree with the statements that you will only cut it with 300 or 400 watt when playing together with a 100 watt guitar amp.

 

That feels like there is no communication between the group members, everyone just turns everything to it's maximum. I know this isn't true, but it sounded that way.

 

You have to dominate a good sized room? You play with your friends? Choose a level of volume in which you can play for more 3 hours or more without earplugs, headaches, etc... . And try to persuade the guitar player to drop his volume a bit. I know his 'sound' will be different but leave that for live situations and/or recordings (or let him buy a hot plate )

 

I know in a way you guys are right but stating it's almost impossible otherwise is a bit far fetched.

 

*ducks for cover*

[EddiePlaysBass]

Originally posted by cloclo:

And try to persuade the guitar player to drop his volume a bit.

CloClo, I'm beginning to think you don't have a guitar player in your band

 

Seriously, I once turned my bass amp down, thinking - quite naïvely - that the guitarists would follow. One song into the rehearsal and they all told me "Turn it up ..." **

 

Cheers,

 

Eddie

 

** No, it wasn't the start of Sweet Home Alabama

[Dave Brown]

Originally posted by kosta:

What is this madness! Why are guitar amps infused with the power of the gods, while bass amps are mere mortal in power! We should start a union.

 

It's not madness.

[Fred TBP]

Originally posted by cloclo:

I know in a way you guys are right but stating it's almost impossible otherwise is a bit far fetched.

Wait until you've been playing rock for 30-something years. Guitarists haven't changed much since the late 60s, and they're all mostly deaf from standing in front of their Marshall 100 watt half-stacks. There are noteable exceptions, however.

 

300 is cool, but go 400-600 watts to have the spare headroom in case you need to drive a 2nd cabinet someday. The cost difference isn't as much as you think. And as long as you don't mind carting your cabinet, a 4x10 is the ideal solution. Me, I'm an SWR/Peavey afficionado.

 

Also, make sure there's a fan to suck out the excess heat; it'll help your head last longer.

[bikertrash]

I wouldn't even think about getting into a volume war with a 100w guitar amp if my only ammo was a red head or 2x10 anything.

 

I read all the post about how people have such and such monster 2x10's an can gig at the superbowl without a pa.

 

I have 3 different 2x10's and power up to 2400W.

I've been gigging for 30+ plus years, I don't know how people do it. Personaly, I can't get anywhere near it.

 

A 2x10 is a 2x10 is a 2x10 and a 2x10 is only going to move so much air. Period.

 

YOU...need to move air. Watts don't move air. Speakers move air. You need speakers. AT THE VERY LEAST 4 tens (which is less air moving area than a 2x15 cab)

 

The next thing you need is efficient speakers because your budget doesn't allow for big power AND speakers.

 

I wish I could be more help but I don't really have enough information to go on and I'm sorry if my opinion rubs anyone the wrong way but, like I said, I do this for a living, I work with pros who do it for a living and none of us play loud and we all know how to work together and I can't do it.

 

2x10 anythings are for small band background music in clubs smaller than...100 seats at most.

 

They are NOT for foreground music or people wanting to play loud or battle 100W guitar amps.

 

You want a nice Eden 210 XLT? It's supposed to be the baddest, loudest most efficient 2x10 on the planet. It's been sitting in my closet for over two years collecting dust because even with 2400W. it won't do the job I need done in a 140 seat club played by a bunch of 40+ year olds. I'll make you a good deal.

 

Again sorry for the rant and insulting anybody.

[musicfiend]

true.....100 watt head, and i used an swr bass 750 and goliath3...i had it maxxed on master valoume and gain was pretty close to clipping....

So i broght in my aguilar next time. BIG DIFFERENCE, headroom rocks

[twentyamptwist]

YOU...need to move air. Watts don't move air. Speakers move air. You need speakers. AT THE VERY LEAST 4 tens (which is less air moving area than a 2x15 cab)

If I may elaborate on this, you do need cones to push that air but you also need watts to push those cones. The larger the size and number of speakers, the more amp power it needs! Bass, by it's physical nature, requires a tremendous amount of power to reproduce, compared to higher frequencies. It takes amp power to push such a large pressure wave of air to your ear (and everywhere else).

 

Also, according to the FletcherMunson curves, the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies in the middle of the spectrum. Therefore, it takes more sound pressure for bass frequencies to attain the same perceived volume level as a mid frequency. Guitars are all about mid freqs. This is why a 50 watt guitar head can scream so much louder than a 300 watt bass combo.

 

If you are confused why a 200 watt rig is not so much louder than a 15 watter, here's why:

 

Because amp power is calculated logarithmically and not linearly, a 200 watt amp is only approx 3.7 times bigger than a 15 watter, and not the approx 13 times you'd think. The formula works out so that everytime you double amp power, you get a 3 dB increase in sound pressure level. 3 dB is about the smallest increase in level that the ear can detect. That's not a heck of alot! A 400 watt amp is only 3db hotter than the 200.

 

You can see how this can get real expensive for live sound companies who have to double and double again the racks and racks of amps to get that 6dB increase in level that is specified in the concert rider. If you have 10,000 Watts powering your PA rig and you need to get 6 dB more, you need to double and double again to 40,000 watts to get that increase.

 

Now, of course, there's more than one way to skin the cat. Speaker efficiency plays a big role and can save you a whole lotta dough. By purchasing more efficient speakers, you will get more SPL from your rig with the same amount of watts from your amp.

 

All clear? Great!

 

I like the looks of a rig consisting of 2 - 2x10 cabs (ampeg, aguilar or GK) and an Aguilar GS112. This gives you your "four 10s", a very deep and powerful 12" for more low end, and the option to go down to one 2X10 and 12 or just 12 or whatever!

I'd probably want a power amp (SWR 750X?)for the GS112, for that extra thump!

 

And like bikertrash said, a 2x10 just ain't gonna cut it. Even my GK400/210! But i still like it! It sounds great! But it needs a 12! Bye!

[kosta]

Thanks fellows, ill check into those links posted and thanks for all the info. Also my guitarist doest not just crank his amp up to 10, hes a reasonable dude and i doubt we'd be getting into a heated volume war as everyone in the band but me wears ear plugs for some reason.

 

Also, don't venues usually just mic the bass amp?

[bikertrash]

Without getting into a specs. game which is suspect at best and "My eyes glaze over".....

 

That Eden 210xlt eating oh...140watts worth of Trace Elliot amp will do everything and more that My Acme B2 will do with an 1100W. Crown Power amp.

 

THATS the difference between one of the most efficient cabs out there and one of the most inefficent cabs out there.

 

The first rig is SIGNIFICANTLY less money than the second although the second is SIGNIFICANTLY better sounding. (to my ears. maybe not yours)

 

It doesn't matter how good or bad either one of them sounds if you can't hear either one of them.

 

However, it doesn't matter how loud the band is playing, I can always take my wallet out of my pocket and SEE how much money I've spent.

 

Once you drive the speakers to Xmax. it's over. A thousand watts of headroom will sound better, it won't sound louder. How much watts (money) it takes to get to Xmax (Maximum speaker excursion) is a function of efficiency.

 

If you're looking at a price point AND fighting say...a 100w 2x12 guitar amp...

 

You are a heck of a lot better off using your own 100w amp and... and 8x12" than a 800w amp and 2x12"

 

Thats all I'm saying.

 

Certainly a 15w practice amp is not practical for anything outside the bedroom and there's nowhere to go but up.

 

However, in the context of the initial post...if I couldn't get the job done with a little Peavey TKO 115 or something similar, I'd fire the guy or beat his butt.

[kosta]

Fair enough, i think i might buy the originally planned amp.

Now i have another querry. Can i still buy speakers and use that combo as a head? Also, are Trace Elliot amps THE amps to go for? I hear good things.

[bassdrummer]

Originally posted by kosta:

... i tried out a 200 watt yorkville amp. http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=32&cat=15

(Either the XM200 or the XM200T i forget which)

It sounded great and everything ...

kosta,

 

My gut feeling is that you should go back to the store and buy that Yorkville XM200. I love the tone and build quality of my Yorkville XM50C. I think you'll be happy with the XM200. You already like the sound, and I bet it will be plenty loud enough for what you want to do right now.

 

Good luck!

[bassdrummer]

Originally posted by kosta:

Fair enough, i think i might buy the originally planned amp.

Now i have another querry. Can i still buy speakers and use that combo as a head?

Yes, you can get a perfectly matched Yorkville extension cab and run it off of the original combo. That would enable you to have any combination of two 1x15's, or two 2x10's, or one of each. It depends on which combo you get (the XM200, which is a 1x15, or the XM200T, which is a 2x10) and which extension cab you get (either a 1x15 or a 2x10).

[musicfiend]

If I were in your situation I would ask the store to let you take the amp home for a day. Then take it to a practice, you'll probably find that it's not loud enough. As I stated earlier I was jammin with a player that had a 100 watt marshall head with a 412, i was playing with 450 watts and a 410 cab and I had it dimed. I mean, I could seriously not turn it up any louder, yet I could barely hear myself, I wasn't cutting through, and I had to take out a lot of bass response and add way too much mid freq to cut it for the jam. BTW, how much money are you planning to drop on this rig?

[musicfiend]

Sorry, 850 canadian, gimme a minute to do a conversion

[musicfiend]

WEll, it looks like you have 680 usd to play around with. There is a huge jump between new equipment priced at 680 and used equipment priced at say 1000, when it comes to an amp rig. My suggestion would be to save your clams until your into quadruple didgets and then search the used market. Until then, play through as many amps as you can at music shops, from friends, and anywhere else that you can. That will give you enough time to make a decision and end up with a solid amp that you can really on in terms of tone, versatilitly , and dependability

[kosta]

The problem is however, that i need an amp right now because it is no fun not hearing yourself in a band practice. On the yorkville question however, is the hype legitemate?

[kosta]

sorry, i meant trace elliot