Anyone have Acme Low-B cabs?

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by greenboy:

That comes down to dollars for power amp, and total available SPL per pound.

Yup, but I believe that I already have sufficient power amp (SWR SM-900) so I'm not really considering that in the equation. If I actually don't have enough power (which I believe I do), it's not too difficult nor incredibly expensive to use a 2nd power amp that's fed from the line-out's on the SWR head, although I really doubt I'd need that. I'd certainly take a power-hungry rather low-efficiency cab that cranks out tons of lows over a cab with higher sensitivity that does sound the way I want. Unfortunately, physics is at work and high-sensitivity *usually* means reduced low-end response, and vice-versa (but not in every case of course). Abundant lows are the hardest thing on the planet to reproduce...I'm a firm believer that the right mix and shape of mids and highs can be EQ'd in if you've got the lows covered (assuming, you've got the drivers/tweeters to cover the mids and high, of course). These 3-way designs make so much sense, it's hard to believe that this approach hasn't truly taken off long before now.

 

So, I've gathered that the Avatar cabinets, although known to sound great, aren't known for huge low-end response. Just out of curiosity, where do the Epifani cabs fit into the equation? I gather they are not the "flat response with abundant lows" as the other 3 generally mentioned in that sense? Where do Bergantino's fall into the mix as well? (I ask this because I went and played through a Bergantino 2x12 over lunch...really nice sound, but it's as big as my 410's, so I'm not sure what I'd gain for the $700 used price...)

 

Thx,

Dave

[Gruuve]

I'd still want more power than the SM900 can put out - my Low-B2s enjoy getting 900W each from my QSC.

 

Wow! Really? That much juice into each B2 and you don't get any farting or other non-sense from the drivers?

 

Hmmm...it's sounding like the best thing I can do is just order a B2 and try it...if it just doesn't work for my needs, then I can ship it back. Sounds like the shipping cost is worth finding the answer to my questions...

 

Thx,

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Just out of curiosity, where do the Epifani cabs fit into the equation? I gather they are not the "flat response with abundant lows" as the other 3 generally mentioned in that sense? Where do Bergantino's fall into the mix as well?

It's dangerous to over-simplify by brand because both companies make a wide range of cabs, with Jim Bergantino's varying as much as from their New Vintage range (a modern take on the old skool tweeterless sealed cab approach), through their amazingly punchy and loud for its size HT112, to their big and deep HT322.

 

There is a more clearly definited 'Epifani sound' which is often described as deep, clear, slightly mid-shy and with smooth highs. The ultimate smooth jazz and r&b cab? But like almost all of these high-end makes, they can hang with everything from lounge to hard rock bands - if you use them right!

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I'd still want more power than the SM900 can put out - my Low-B2s enjoy getting 900W each from my QSC.

 

Wow! Really? That much juice into each B2 and you don't get any farting or other non-sense from the drivers?

If I really crank the lows then the speakers eventually start to 'fart' (over-excurse). But that's a LOT of bottom, dub-reggae levels in fact.

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Hmmm...it's sounding like the best thing I can do is just order a B2 and try it...if it just doesn't work for my needs, then I can ship it back. Sounds like the shipping cost is worth finding the answer to my questions...

Good idea - I doubt you'll be disappointed. One thing to bear in mind is that in terms of overall output (and basically how 'big' the rig sounds) everyone seems to agree that two Low-B2s are more than the sum of their parts. And don't forget to allow time for the surrounds to loosen up - plug a CD player into your rig on repeat, turn it up to a moderate level and leave it running when you're out at work. A day of that and the bottom end will blossom.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Good idea - I doubt you'll be disappointed. One thing to bear in mind is that in terms of overall output (and basically how 'big' the rig sounds) everyone seems to agree that two Low-B2s are more than the sum of their parts. And don't forget to allow time for the surrounds to loosen up - plug a CD player into your rig on repeat, turn it up to a moderate level and leave it running when you're out at work. A day of that and the bottom end will blossom.

 

Alex

Thanks Alex. I'd say that's pretty much true of doubling most cabs. If you roughly double the amp output (by halving the impedance from 8 to 4 ohms) and double the surface area producing sound, then you theoretically get a 6db increase in SPL.

 

Thanks for the tip on loosening the drivers up...I had never thought of that as being a factor.

 

This is a great thread, IMHO! There's a lot of information in here...hopefully this will really help other folks who are shopping for cabs.

 

Thx,

Dave

[g.]

I'd say for those who are only going by the numbers when comparing EA and Acme, that just a teesny bit less from 31 to 42 Hz (but still a lot more than most bass cabs) is a good tradeoff to get higher decibels out of around half the drivers and 60% the weight. If that.

 

I'd love to see the rumored neodymium Acme designs hit the pavement. That weight shaving would make up for the inefficiency when doing the SPL-per-pound-across-entire-spectrum-per-dollar shuffle.

[Tom Capasso]

Dave,

 

It seems you are getting close to going with Acme. While I've never played them, I've been in a room while other bassists (BenLoy in particular) played them, and they cover the lows. I think you'll be happy.

 

greenboy makes lots of points to narrow the field, but you still end up with a wide choice of cabs to choose from. I've tried the EA and been impressed. I play Bergs. I've tried Epifani as well. Different cabs are designed to do different things. While many here love our Berg 12s, you're not going to think they sound like pipe organ pedals - they cover a broad range (lows, mids, highs) well.

 

I think that lots of these would work well for you, unless you turn out to be one of those people that is never really satisfied.

 

Tom

[WCunha]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I'd love to see the rumored neodymium Acme designs hit the pavement. That weight shaving would make up for the inefficiency when doing the SPL-per-pound-across-entire-spectrum-per-dollar shuffle.

When did you hear that. I thought that myself if only they came with neodymium speakers.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by Tom Capasso:

I think that lots of these would work well for you, unless you turn out to be one of those people that is never really satisfied.

 

Tom

ROTF...no doubt right? Sound-wise, there's nothing wrong with my current cabs. I wouldn't mind having more lows from the Carvins without cranking the bass knob on the SWR amp, but it works and it sounds great. However, the part I'm considering is how to get similar response but with easily moveable cabs rather than two 70-80 lb bulky 410's. The modular approach seems really appealing in many ways.

 

Of course, last night I blew the power fuse in the SWR head and didn't have any replacement fuses handy (although the Radio Shack 1 mile or so away carries them), so then I was kinda glad that I had the Ampeg BA-115 combo sitting there...I just plugged my cable into the combo and kept practicing.

 

I'm going to have to think through this some more and see what's available used, and if it all makes economic sense. I'll let you guys know what I end up doing. This has been a great thread!

[g.]

WCunha: When did you hear that. I thought that myself if only they came with neodymium speakers.

Oops, missed this one, sorry, William. Well, I was talking to Andy somewhere between a years or two years ago, and really talked up some companies that are doing Neo, including Eminence, B&C and another in Europe, etc.

 

I mentioned that other companies were marketing designs with weight savings - but that I thought most of them were bass-deficient. He said he was interested. Later I heard from another person who talks to Andy, that R&D was happening.

 

...Though I didn't verify; I've found it's easier to be patient if I just let some things like that ride ; }

[WCunha]

Originally posted by greenboy:

WCunha: When did you hear that. I thought that myself if only they came with neodymium speakers.

Oops, missed this one, sorry, William. Well, I was talking to Andy somewhere between a years or two years ago, and really talked up some companies that are doing Neo, including Eminence, B&C and another in Europe, etc.

 

I mentioned that other companies were marketing designs with weight savings - but that I thought most of them were bass-deficient. He said he was interested. Later I heard from another person who talks to Andy, that R&D was happening.

 

...Though I didn't verify; I've found it's easier to be patient if I just let some things like that ride ; }

That is alright I think I can forgive you. Even that you called me William but, that is okay too. For future reference my name is Wade unless you prefer William I really don't care.

 

Nice to hear that Andy is doing R&D with the Neo speakers and also glad to see he just isn't jumping on the Neo band wagon with a product that is not as good as the current one.

[g.]

Sorry, Wayne,

 

Too much caffiene drain. I knew your name, but IO'm kinda going through a fatigue cycle right now and -

 

Err, Wade.

 

Anyway, yeah - I think the majority of the neo products on the market are sublow shy compared to the equivalenbt non-neo products. This has NOTHING to do with the magnetic properties, and everything to do with generations and generations of engineering and R&D based on familiar magnetic patterns and gapping practices. Neo hasn't been explored very deeply yet, but has proven itself in midrange and midbass and tweeter applications.

 

Speaking of which: I notice Yorkville has a fine new composite PA cab in their NX series, using probably the same incredible neo woofer they use in their Unity series. Aimable wavguide for the tweeter portion too, and available in a great biamped package with Class H for the horn and Class D for the woofer.

 

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22

[WCunha]

It's just a matter of time before the Neo speakers will be up to par with a conventinal design. It just takes the R&D time.

 

My biggest complaint is when companies start touting about how great this new speaker is or anything for that matter when they know that the R&D to make it comparable to what we have been using for many years is still a little ways down the road.