Pre-amp? Amp? Advice!? Help!

[dont]

I am planning to upgrade my rig with a separate amp and pre-amp, and can find no good info on either. I would appreciate any subjective or objective advice on brands and models and any assistance on where to look for info.

I have an SWR Bass 750 now, and have considered an Eden Navigator and Crest Audio CA-9---suggestions or comments?

Thanks in advance.

[HiRoller]

What don't you like about your rig now? What type of sound are you going for?

[_Sweet Willie_]

Yup, more information would help us help you.

 

HiRoller's questions are good, and bear repeating:

 

1. What don't you like about your rig now?

2. What kind of sound are you going for?

 

I'll add:

 

3. How much power do you want (need)? What kind of gigs do you play (type of music, size and instrumentation of fellow musicians, types of venues, etc.)?

4. What speaker cabs are you using and what are their power handling specs?

5. Do you have any weight and/or size restrictions (i.e., # of rack units)?

6. What is your price limit? Are you willing to buy used or new?

7. What's your timeline?

 

So, for example, if you like the tone of your SWR amp, but want more power -- you might want to get an SWR preamp and add a power amp. Or you might want to add a slave power amp to your 750 (although that's already a hoss of an amp in size, so your rig would be getting weighty).

 

I could, for another example, recommend a Kern IP-777 preamp (which I think has a lovely buttery tone). However, the tone might not be RAWK enough, and getting these new or used is tough right now -- so if you're in a hurry, this is not the preamp for you. I could also recommend you couple that preamp with a Peavey DPC-1400X power amp. It's only 14 lbs., puts 1400W RMS bridged mono into 4 ohms, about 500W RMS stereo into 4 ohms, is 1U, but requires a deep rack. You might want even more power, or you might want to use a shallow rack, or the $900 or so price new might be off-putting.

 

Unfortunately I can't speak to the Eden Navigator preamp (although I have a bassist buddy who is very happy with his) or the CA-9.

 

Also, even though the search engine (upper right corner of your screen) on this forum isn't the greatest, you should still give terms like "preamp", "power amp", and "separates" a shot. You're not the first to have questions about going to separates.

 

Peace.

--SW

[dont]

In response to the questions, I play blues and blues-rock, and I like a lot of low end punch. The SWR 750 does reasonably well until I push it hard on the low end; my feeling is that I need more power. My present cabs are three Eden CX212's; I am considering going to Eden 410XLT's, Aguilar 410's or 212's, or Bergantino 322's---any input about these would be appreciated also. My main basses are a Sukop five, a Carvin LB75, and an NSD upright five.

I would like a little better tone-shaping capability than the SWR has though I am not a serious knob-twiddler.

Thanks for the help.

[Big Red 67]

Try pluging the head you have into a 2x15 cab like SWR bertha. Swr heads like swr cabs.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by dont:

I would like a little better tone-shaping capability than the SWR has though I am not a serious knob-twiddler.

You might like the SWR Grand Prix preamp. It's been discontinued but shows up on the used market. If you're okay w/ the SWR sound, this preamp has a 4-band EQ instead of a 3-band. It has two mid-EQs with selectable frequencies, it would provide you with just a bit more tone-shaping capability.

 

The Eden Navigator has a whole lotta knobs to twiddle. If you like the "Eden sound" and are committed to going to separates, it might be what you want coupled with Eden cabs. Especially if after twiddling those knobs you have a "set it and forget it" attitude.

 

What is your typical EQ setting on your SWR 750 (including aural enhancer and whether you pull up either the bass or treble knobs, which changes their frequencies a bit)? Getting more low end punch may have more to do with boosting low mids rather than boosting lows, which might buy you some more headroom.

 

Of course it could be that the head is doing you justice, but you can't tell because it's the cabs that aren't right for "your" sound. Or, it may be that your ear wants cabs that go lower -- like Acme or AccuGroove.

 

That said, I would think that the 750W @ 4 ohms (850W @ 2.67 ohms) power from the head plus six 12" speakers should be plenty of oomph for almost any gig situation. This is why I've asked above about your EQ setting on the amp (and on your basses for that matter, I know the Carvin has an active on-board preamp and assume that the Sukop does also). However, if you have the means, I'm a believer in extra headroom!

 

Peace.

--SW

[73 P Bass]

I have a hard time believing 750w into 6 12" speakers can't produce enough lowend. But low tones do take a lot of power, so you could run a line out of your amp to a power amp to power a cabinet or two.

You're running 3 cabinets off one head; what is the impedance of the cabinets, and what is the minimum load the head can handle?

[Mr. Phil]

hmmm...lots of low end.

 

Try Biamping with a whappo grande

[Edendude]

Since you seem to like the Eden and SWR sound, but want more low end, my advice would be to try your SWR head with one of the new Eden 410XST cabs. I was blown away by the great low end of the new Eden XST 2x10 and 4x10. My guess would be that your SWR head and the Eden 410XST will give you just what you're looking for.

 

I think it's more of a cab issue than it is a power issue, in your case.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Assuming the 3 cabs are each 8 ohms and are connected in parallel, your overall impedance is 2.67 ohms, which is the minimum for the SWR 750. It puts out 850W RMS @ 2.67 ohms, and I would think that 850W into six 12" speakers would give you much low end goodness. Even if SWR were overstating their specs, you'd still be getting lots of wattage into your speakers.

 

You may actually get futher experimenting w/ how you EQ or w/ different speakers, than you will by getting more power (at least right off the bat).

 

Peace.

--SW

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by dont:

In response to the questions, I play blues and blues-rock, and I like a lot of low end punch. The SWR 750 does reasonably well until I push it hard on the low end; my feeling is that I need more power. My present cabs are three Eden CX212's

The SWR 750 is a good amp and 750W is a lot of power, particularly when pushing a rig that's as efficient as six (SIX!!!) Eden 12"s. However, I suspect the speakers are the weak point in this rig, as such a configuration should produce pretty damn awesome low end.

 

You're obviously playing in pretty loud bands, so if you go the power amp route I'd get as much power as you can. I have a QSC PLX 3002 and it's great - very light, powerful and will some very useful features (notably the clip limiters and 30Hz/50Hz filters). The PLX range goes from 1200W - 3400W, all weigh 21lbs and are compact, reliable and probably the most popular power amp with bassists.

 

Preamp wise, the SWR GP is good but lacking in bass EQ (80Hz is the lowest frequency that you can cut or boost). The Eden Navigator is nice and the EQ's very extensive. The only other preamp that stands out to me is the Demeter HBP, which is very similar to the all-valve and passive EQ Demeter but with a dual fully-parametric EQ added.

 

If you like tight deep bottom end punch, you'll struggle to do better than Acmes. They eat power, but power's cheap and light. For less deep yet bigger sounding bottom, I'd consider Accugroove's big cabs, like the Whappo and Whappo Jr. Epifani's 410 (NY or UL) and Eden's 410XST are probably the most potent of the more conventional cabs.

 

Alex

[_Sweet Willie_]

To reiterate:

 

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

5. Do you have any weight and/or size restrictions (i.e., # of rack units)?

6. What is your price limit? Are you willing to buy used or new?

A $300 SansAmp RBI preamp might be what you need or a $600 Avalon U5.

 

A $1000+ AccuGroove cab would be lovely, but a used SWR Goliath II 4x10 for much less might serve your needs.

 

And so on...

 

Peace.

--SW

[BenLoy]

Woah, nelly. Hold on a sec...

 

You're playing an SWR Bass 750 and you're not loud enough??? I find this difficult to believe...that amp is friggin' loud.

 

What are your guitarists playing through? Marshalls with 2 4x12s?

 

The Bass 750 only puts out its advertised power rating at 4 ohms...so first of all you need to make sure you're running it at that impedance. You can do this by running one 4 ohm cab or two 8 ohm cabs.

 

The next step is your speakers. You may find that 10-inch speakers will give you much more low-end "punch" than 12-inch speakers will. They have quicker transient response and are much more responsive to rapid excursion. A good move considering your setup would be to buy 2 Eden 8-ohm D-210XLTs...lots of punch...small footprint.

 

Finally, EQ. How are you setting your Bass 750? Extreme EQ settings will cause you to run out of headroom real fast and overdrive the preamp...making you think you're distorting the amp past its max volume levels when you've really just got the thing set wrong and are boosting frequencies that are just getting eaten up by guitars.

 

The best way to get low-end "punch" is to emphasize frequencies between 120Hz and 250Hz...the "low mids".

 

Turn off that Aural Enhancer and set the EQ flat with your input gain and master volumes set at noon. While you're playing with the band, set the midrange control to around 2:00 and start playing with the midrange frequency control in the 7 to 10:00 area. You should find a "sweet spot" where your bass jumps out of the mix a bit. You may even find you'll need to turn the master volume down after doing this.

 

After that, if still want some low-end "oomph," boost the bass control, but don't set it past the low-midrange "bump" you've created. That "bump" enables you to actually hear what you're doing.

 

Lemme know if this helps.