Stupidly ingenious or ingeniously stupid: innovative or not?

[_Sweet Willie_]

On zeronyne's "fretless/fretted" thread I posted this link:

CLICK HERE for interesting Steinberger prototype

 

wraub commented that it was strangely "ingeniously stupid" and "stupidly ingenious". I also believe that the idea never went anywhere.

 

This got me thinking, what other interesting bass "innovations" are out there? What ideas did people try that addressed a perceived need or niche, but were also kind of odd -- maybe or maybe not falling flat on their faces?

 

Here's another example that's been discussed on this forum before:

Step-neck bass -- picture

Step-neck bass -- description

 

OK, your turn. Whatcha got to share?

 

Peace.

--Sweet "maple syrup ain't got nuthin' on me" Willie

[The Bear Jew]

I got nothin. I just think that idea rocks.

 

Wonder if it works at all and if they can put one of those necks on a P-bass?

[_Sweet Willie_]

OK, Ralph Novak's Novax fanned fret system is pretty cool, and used by Sheldon Dingwall and others in their basses.

 

However, I really like something else Sheldon does with earth magnets and his instruments:

 

The Dingwall battery compartment cover!

 

Tres cool, n'est-ce pas?

 

Peace.

--s-uu

[jeremy c]

They're not just earth magnets...they're "rare earth" magnets!

"I Just Want To Celebrate"

 

I'm going to have to listen to my Rare Earth Live album tonight.

 

Victor Wooten has one of those step neck basses, but I've never seen him play it.

 

Another "innovation" mentioned in another thread was the Novatone Interchangeable fretboard.

 

I don't know where to find a picture of this

[dcr]

Put my faith in the Novatone, but the Novatone let me down.

[wraub]

Will-Thanks for the mad props, just being my high-verbal self.

 

Jeremy-Mad props to you for the Rare Earth reference, an underappreciated band even in their prime, IMO.

And it was me that mentioned the Novatone system- Somewhere, I think I still have the literature the company sent me. I'll dig around, might take a while.

 

To the subject- Anybody remember Bunker guitars (I think that was the name), headless with traditional tuners at the bottom of the body, and removable/interchangeable body wings. As weird as it sounds, with the benefit of being ugly as well.

 

Similarly, some of the designs that hit market after the Steinberger, ill-conceived headless things with tuners added seemingly anywhere (Kramer Duke comes to mind IIRC) I could have done without (and did).

 

And how about luthite- (plastic wood? that'll be great for guitars, and better for basses! and the smell sells itself!)

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[getz out]

Luthite is pretty cool. Interesting concept, at least.

 

How about some of those foam-filled plastic-bodied basses?

[saxofunk]

Wraub, I remember Bunker, and on their site I found this...

http://www.bunker-guitars.com/TG2001.jpg

 

There is an mp3.

 

Bunker don't show anything (bass anyway) with detachable wings, but I know I've see what you're talking about. Someone makes a bass with tubular framing and all the "non-essential" parts like body wings are removable, methinks.

 

Apologies if the jpg doesn't show. It came up initialy, but now many of the pages are "forbidden."

[getz out]

My favorite innovation is the Behringer CT100 Cable Tester:

 

http://media.zzounds.com/media/fit,325by400/quality,85/brand,zzounds/CT100_big-d9bb65abc7080ea45b362d238a34487f.jpg

 

It's a fantastic improvements on Ebtech Swizz Army 6 in 1 Cable Tester:

 

http://media.zzounds.com/media/fit,325by400/quality,85/EBTSWIZZCT.jpg

 

Obvious advantages include a silver metallic paint scheme instead of the obsolete purple and the use of a more appropriate model number, CT100.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Maybe I should change the thread title to "Behringer: Innovative or not" -- maybe not.

[getz out]

[jeremy c]

What about this?

http://www.simos.net/images/homemade_instrument.jpg

You can here it: sound sample

And read about it: web page

 

What if it catches on?

[jeremy c]

Mr. Gollihur, this would be a good thread for you to post a picture of your Lane Poor Minima bass.

 

Didn't he even make one that had a triangular neck and body with strings on two of the sides so you could swivel it around and get another set of strings to play?

[dcr]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

You can here it: sound sample

Sound sample?!? What is that, Vogon music?!

[davebrownbass]

One of the catalogs I get (American Musical Supply, I think) advertises both:

 

Resonator Basses. That would be a bass Dobro. (well, not really, I guess.)

Fender makes one, for less than $400. Check this out.

 

Bass Banjoes. That would be a bass banjo. Here\'s one for about $600.

 

Hmmmmm....The idea fascinates me. I think I want one. Anybody ever play one?

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by wraub:

And how about luthite- (plastic wood? that'll be great for guitars, and better for basses! and the smell sells itself!)

I hate the smell of luthite...it's worst in the Ibanez EDB...my EDA isn't so bad, and in the EDC, it's imperceptible. Luthite and Ebonol...you could make a bass where not a single tree was killed...until the waste material leeched into the earth.

 

Here's the solution to the whole bridge or neck pickup thing:

http://www.neverwhere.org/~steve/graphics/instruments/rail/bass_full_flat.jpg

I thought this thing was silly when it first came out, but now I'm thinking that it would be better than a Steinberger to travel with, since you'd probably actually care if a Steinberger got destroyed.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

speaking of really clever behringer designs, check out their new, ultrabass cabinets:

 

http://www.behringer.com/ULTRABASS-SERIES/bg_ultrabass.jpg

 

i can't quite place it, though. still no one can compare to hartke:

 

http://www.samsontech.com/images/productimages/4dot5xl.gifhttp://www.samsontech.com/images/productimages/vx115.jpg

 

my personal favorites are the "legendary BUGERA aluminum or BUGERA paper cone loudspeakers" and the statement that "Innovation doesnt stop here."

 

robb.

[zeronyne]

I'm not sure how Behringer's biz practices are any more questionable than these designs:

http://www.lakland.com/basses/bass_gallery/osborn/osborn_teal_green_sm.jpg

http://65.108.199.151/pictures.bmp/douglasnat2a.jpg

http://www.mikelull.com/custom%20guitars/guitar%20images/2tone_V4_sm.jpghttp://www.samickguitar.com/bass/images/indexfairlane.jpg

 

Whether they are cheap knockoffs or luxurious improvements to the original design, these are still VERY CLOSE copies of the immensely popular Jazz Bass. Speaking ergonomically, neither Samick nor Lull are making leaps and bounds in the field of body shape. This is not to say that a Lull isn't awesome or that a Samick isn't a great deal. But couldn't the same be argued about Behringer? Yes, those cabs look like Hartkes and those two cable testers are probably made in the same factory on the same assembly line, but how is that any different than the hundreds of luthiers and guitar companies making Jazz and Precision copies, often in the same factory?

 

I think Behringer attracts more attention because this hasn't happened as much in the rest of the music world. And they DO do their own R&D on a lot of stuff...they have a really good digital mixer for the price that is not a ripoff of anything else, and their mics are great.

 

But back on topic....since I couldn't find a picture of the Novatone fretboard, I present you with Randy Jackson on the Journey "Raised on Radio" tour, where I saw him use those fretboards.

http://www.journey-tribute.com/journey/pictures/others/other03.jpg

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by zeronyne:

But couldn't the same be argued about Behringer? Yes, those cabs look like Hartkes and those two cable testers are probably made in the same factory on the same assembly line, but how is that any different than the hundreds of luthiers and guitar companies making Jazz and Precision copies, often in the same factory?

I really don't want to help open up this can of worms but this is really comparing apples and oranges. The Precision and Jazz have been around so long that any patents have expired and all that remains is copyright on trademarks like the headstock shape. The fundamental Fender bass design is now public domain.

 

Behringer have had a history of reverse engineering other designs, going as far copying even the exact circuitboard layout complete with mistakes and revisions. They then use cheaper parts and cheaper labour, and certainly a different factory to assemble a lower quality clone for which they have had almost zero R&D cost.

 

Apparently when they launched their power amp range, the perspex topped model shown at NAMM actually had most of the innards lifted from a QSC RMX. Then they had the audacity to directly copy most of the text from QSC's manual.

 

Originally posted by zeronyne:

I think Behringer attracts more attention because this hasn't happened as much in the rest of the music world. And they DO do their own R&D on a lot of stuff...they have a really good digital mixer for the price that is not a ripoff of anything else, and their mics are great.

They don't do their own R&D on A LOT of stuff but it's good to see that they're doing some original designs. Maybe in time they'll become a more reputable company that no longer relies on others doing all the design for them without any remuneration.

 

Back to the original topic - I love the idea of a switchable fretted/fretless bass but I really can't see how it can be achieved without compromising tone or tuning. But you never know!

 

Genesis necks, Novak fanned frets, Acme & Accugroove cabs and Walter Woods amps all come to mind as innovations that have worked out.

 

The piece de resistance of ingeniously stupid ideas has to be the Gizmotron, which almost singlehandedly sunk Musitronics, the innovators behind the Mu-Tron.

 

http://www.beitec.com/images/stomp/pic04.gif

 

Alex

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by zeronyne:

Originally posted by wraub:

And how about luthite- (plastic wood? that'll be great for guitars, and better for basses! and the smell sells itself!)

I hate the smell of luthite...it's worst in the Ibanez EDB...my EDA isn't so bad, and in the EDC, it's imperceptible. Luthite and Ebonol...you could make a bass where not a single tree was killed...until the waste material leeched into the earth.

 

Here's the solution to the whole bridge or neck pickup thing:

http://www.neverwhere.org/~steve/graphics/instruments/rail/bass_full_flat.jpg

I thought this thing was silly when it first came out, but now I'm thinking that it would be better than a Steinberger to travel with, since you'd probably actually care if a Steinberger got destroyed.

I was going to post this one! In highschool (early 1980's) I used to frequent a mom & pop store that was a Westone dealer. I was intrigued by the design of this bass, but never could get a timbre I liked from it. Besides, unlike the Steinberger, the Westone did not feature a balancing plate for strap mounting, as Ned's early basses did. With virtually no body, the Westone dips like crazy on the neck side.

 

It sure does look neat, though!

 

My favorite innovation that never made it was the Roland G-707 midi guitar and 77 synth bass controllers. The ones that look like an assault rifle, usually in metallic silver and black. They incorporated a brace from body to headstock in an attempt to make the instruments more rigid, ostensibly to reduce mis-interpretation by the synth converter of secondary resonances. Boy were they difficult to get used to playing.

 

http://electricguitar.50megs.com/Chix/baby_g707.jpg.

[wraub]

Originally posted by Matt W:

Wraub, I remember Bunker, and on their site I found this...

Bunker don't show anything (bass anyway) with detachable wings, but I know I've seen what you're talking about.

Thanks, I thought I might have seen 'em on one of my hallucinogenic freakouts... The ones I remembered are actually there-Towards the bottom of the page is a link that says "1956 Astral". The ones I had in mind are the Super-Nova and the Galaxy, apparently. Truly not good looking. That "touch guitar" in the pic you posted has a distinctive look to be sure- Gibson harp meets pedal steel meets 4 string bass...and are those tone sliders? Sounds like it needs to be played at least once.

 

And how about the Gittler? Andy summers "played" one in the synchronicity 2 video- kind of a steel christmas tree skeleton with strings, if I recall... Odd as well.

What about the guitars (Electra?) with interchangeable effect units built in, or instruments with interchangeable pick-up modules (Dan Armstrong and others), just snap right in. Kinda cool, in theory at least.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by wraub:

And how about the Gittler? Andy summers "played" one in the synchronicity 2 video- kind of a steel christmas tree skeleton with strings, if I recall...

And the even rarer bass version with 4 stainless steel rods acting as neck, body and fingerboard, one for each string, tuners at the end of each rod and piezo pickups. Fretless of course.

 

With all these high-tech designs the challenge seems to be to retain the resonance and thus warmth and midrange complexity of wood whilst adding the benefits of extra punch, attack, sustain and extended frequency response of stiffer materials. Along those lines, I'd like to try one of those Oteil Burbridge signature Moduli again, like Steve Lawson plays. The combination of graphite neck and semi-hollow body seems a good way to get the best of both worlds.

 

Alex

[zeronyne]

There is a very interesting interview with Gittler here.

 

But I have to paste part of the interview here, because it is DEFINITELY on topic for this post:

 

Right or wrong, a lot of people became aware of your instrument due to an early 80s - video by the Police, on which Andy Summers played a Gittler. What was your reaction to seeing it in a rock video?

 

In my reclusive manner, we had just come to Israel quietly, without fanfare, without money. Three small cartons, three small kids, and no phone. I had no idea the video was running, and that a hundred people were trying to reach me; a short while before, I had cut off all communication with my machinist in New York, due to Ned Steinberger mysteriously finding his way to him and getting an intimate look at my tuner.

 

I was amused to hear that he brought Washburn Guitars to court for infringing on what he was already considering to be his tuner design. Washburns attorney introduced a copy of the Gittler patent; the judge threw the case out.

 

Alan Gittler, or Avraham Bar Rashi, died in 2002.

[wraub]

Stupidly ingenious- "Borrowing" the tuner design.

Ingeniously stupid- Suing over someone else's infringement.

Nice one, Ned!

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Rik]

How about those guitars I used to see in the Sears catalog with an amplifier and speaker built right into the guitar? I think they also had a number of effects built in as well. Switches all over that thing!

[wraub]

Originally posted by Rik:

How about those guitars I used to see in the Sears catalog with an amplifier and speaker built right into the guitar? I think they also had a number of effects built in as well. Switches all over that thing!

That sounds like Silvertone to me...

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[FunkySmurf]

http://barkerbass.com/images/current_inventory/bass_0009_front_sm.gif

What about this?

Why have an upright if it is not bowable and fretted? So it has all the features of a normal bass guitar with none of that pesky portability or light weight! Not to mention that without the strings in an arch shape you have to pluck it like a normal bass anyway!

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

The piece de resistance of ingeniously stupid ideas has to be the Gizmotron, which almost singlehandedly sunk Musitronics, the innovators behind the Mu-Tron.

 

http://www.beitec.com/images/stomp/pic04.gif

Alex - I thought this was a cool idea. Obviously it didn't work well, but someday we'll have something that reliably vibrates a string for us.

 

For those of you that don't know, the Gizmotron was mounted across the strings just above the bridge. Each of those buttons pushes down a small wheel with short teeth that spins and is set at something like a 45 degree angle to the string. The teeth "pluck" the string and release at a fast rate to create a continuous vibration.

 

Willie, you've allowed me to post my favorite bass innovation (most are tired of looking at this, so my apologies). I believe I'm one of only a handful of folks to ever actually play a Dammann...

 

http://www.dammannbasses.com/3c.jpg

 

And what about BassLabs?

 

http://www.basslab.de/OCT/GR/Get_OneD/price_pics/STD-V_silver_sh_totale.gif

http://www.basslab.de/OCT/GR/Get_OneD/price_pics/LB-V_yellow.gif

 

Tom

[57pbass]

They have been around for a while but I like I like the Kubicki X Factor basses. The device that allows you to drop the E to a D without changing fingerings is very nice. The circuit on that bass has some great sounds as well.

[fig]

I let a guy sit in for a few songs many years ago, and remember his bass had interchangeable fretboards. He said a company would take your bass and modify it accordingly. He had three other fretboards, besides the one on the bass. He chose a metal fretless freboard, popped it on (magnets?) and was a killer good player.

 

I own a Westone "The Rail" bass (pictured in above posts). $15 from a pawn shop, I bought it as something cool looking. But after some readjustment and a neck reset, this thing is way good for old school bass. Very punchy tone. Of course, ya gotta withstand the riducule from bandmates and audience. I use it for older country and blues gigs.