57pbass Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 http://news.harmony-central.com/News/2004/Gibson-PRS-Case.html With this case settled do you think Fender can go after Sadowsky, Lakland Lull etc for P Bass Jazz Bass copyright infringement? www.danielprine.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57pbass Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 It would be patent instead of copyright infringement. Help me out Music Man. www.danielprine.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 About all Fender managed to patent, unfortunately, was the headstock shape. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Why is that unfortunate? Why should most people care? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 It would be unfortunate from Fender's perspective because they would then have property rights in only a fraction of what they designed. They should have taken more care with how they disposed of their intellectual labor. Most people don't have to care in order for it to be a serious issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 dcr, I understood how it would be in FENDER's advantage. That's pretty easy to grasp. I didn't see that it was neccesarily in MY advantage however. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I meant it was unfortunate for Fender. Obviously all the rest of us have benefitted. Just think of what things would be like if there were no Fender copies. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 There you go. Problem solved. It's all about GreenBoy. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Damn straight. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arugula Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Thats a interesting read 57pbass, thanks for sharing. Sometimes the good time is to set the devil loose and see if he brings back any candy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I figured that's what you probably meant, Verdant One. I responded as I did because I don't see what your advantage has to do with someone else's property. (Not you personally, of course!) That, and I think we all know that it's really all about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Patent law doesn't always reflect what's good for society, free market competition, or what's "fair". It's been manipulated into a form that is most notably seen as corrupt when IP wars are fought in the field of infotech: computers and OSes and their GUIs. Because someone carved a piece of wood a certain way is certainly less a big deal than who came up with the electronic concepts that support electric music performance, recording, and playback today. And yet those areas are full of competing products which are somewhat similar in surface appearance. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Originally posted by jeremyc: Just think of what things would be like if there were no Fender copies.Yeah.. that would pretty much suck. Lakland, Sadowsky, Lull, etc... would all not be making their killer Jazz and P-bass copies that are essentially just really hot rodded versions of the original Fender. I like Fender basses, but I like what others have done with that design a lot better. It would surprise me a great deal if Fender found it necessary all of a sudden to go after these guys now that they won their suit against PRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkW Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Read more closely and you'll see that the Gibson v. PRS case was trademark infringement, not patent or copyright. Very, very smart move on Gibson's part. Copyright law doesn't apply to inventions, so it would have been a patent. But they probably didn't patent it, and more than likely no patent would be granted for something as cosmetic as the cut of the body, unless they happened to be the first company that came up with the idea of making a cutaway to reach the higher frets. And I'm pretty sure they weren't. But trademark, ooh, that's a tricky beast. You see, you can register a trademark, like Microsoft's floating multi-colored window, or the red 3M, or a big red K for Kellog's. You can also register things like Tony the Tiger, even though he's neither the name of a product or a company. But then, on top of that, sometimes even if you DON'T register something, you can still argue in court (as Gibson might have argued in this case) that certain visual, auditory, or functional aspects of your product may, over the course of time, come to represent your company itself, or its products. When you see a Stratocaster-style body with three single-coil pickups, you think "Fender." And then you immediately look at the headstock to see if it's a Fender or an imitation. You see a P-bass pickup and body and you immediately look at the headstock to see if it's a Sadowsky or Lakland or etc. That means that it's a trademark for the company, even if it isn't specifically registered as such. I agree with some people that sometimes copyrights and patents are exercised to the detriment of the public good if they are upheld for so long that the public never benefits from the technology, or that they might prevent innovation in some cases. But trademarks are a totally different bag. They avoid confusion in the marketplace by establishing brand identities so the consumer knows what he's buying and from whom he's buying it. So try not to lump trademark issues too closely with their cousins, the copyright and the patent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred TBP Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I caught the announcement this afternoon and looked at it from some different perspectives: 1. Isn't this going to add another zero to the value of those PRS cutaways since they aren't going to be able to make any more? Score one for PRS. 2. Why did Gibson (or is it Norlin, or is Gibson a part of the Disney empire?) go after PRS instead of dozens of other companies worldwide who've copied the LP design? (Didn't Gibson and Fender do that already in the 70s?) The implication is that PRS built them better, and Gibson was afraid of losing sales to PRS. Regardless of the court outcome, PRS walked away from this with a little more publicity -"they make them so good that Gibson had to put a stop to them". 3. Where is Les? What's his take on the whole thing? Is he going to make any more money from the use of his name? I think not, and of all the interested parties in this litigation he should be entitled to a piece of the settlement. The man designed the original, and the world is a better place for that. We'll see who gets to go to the bank on this one... My final thought: where are the PRS basses? I've seen a few, but IMHO they don't reflect the craftsmanship put into the guitar lines. It'd be nice to see a $20,000 PRS "Dragon" bass, even though I couldn't afford one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music-man Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by 57pbass: Help me out Music Man.Sorry - I've been out of town, not checking in ... And in any case, ClarkW said it better than I could have. Only this to add - although one perspective is that intellectual property laws (copyright, trademark and patent) suppress the public's access to innovations and therefore work against the public good, the other side of the argument is that IP laws actually ADVANCE the public good by ensuring that people who invest in innovating actually reap rewards. Fred - I'm not so sure Gibson didn't go after companies like Epiphone (prior to the licensing deal) and other knock-offs with threats of litigation ... it's just that PRS thought they could fight it out in court and win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by music-man: although one perspective is that intellectual property laws (copyright, trademark and patent) suppress the public's access to innovations and therefore work against the public good, the other side of the argument is that IP laws actually ADVANCE the public good by ensuring that people who invest in innovating actually reap rewards. Thank you. I might find someone's property right annoying at some time, but the system makes it possible for people to profit by engaging in productive activities, and that's why we're not all destitute in the first place. (There's also the small matter of my not having a right to appropriate the product of someone else's productive activity, since I do not own him. But in a redistributive society, what's a right to self-ownership, anyway?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 We both have two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles and onions, but they have a sesame seed bun. Our buns have no seeds. Ah, nice marmot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Scoot, that was cool. They got the golden arches. We got the golden arcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Has anyone in the NYC-area been past a Kennedy-Fried Chicken? Red and white awning, same lettering at KFC. I laugh every time... "They have the Big Mac, we have the Big Mic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 They're all over Jersey! The first time I saw one, I was playing a gig in New Brunswick. I nearly crapped myself, I laughed so hard when I saw it, it was such a blatant ripoff! Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike R. Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by Nicklab: They're all over Jersey! The first time I saw one, I was playing a gig in New Brunswick. I nearly crapped myself, I laughed so hard when I saw it, it was such a blatant ripoff!I live right near there! Where'd you play at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 The Melody Bar. It's long gone now. Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fonz Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 anyone notice the date of the patent application gibson filed? 87ish? i think prs was already making instruments by then. at any rate this is funny because i made a remark about this recently when discussing neck joints. not too many people glue in necks like gibson. most people bolt them on like fender. you can look at it as fender:gibson::ibm:apple. lots of people model computers after ibm pcs where as no one makes apple clones. i think lull, lakland, sadowski et al are safe. Eeeeeehhhhhhhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I also don't suppose that Lull & Sadowsky are so utterly inept at their trade that they would have had nothing to offer if, say, the Jazz Bass body design had been off limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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