More frets and/or more strings (and other things) -- the world of extended range bass

[Nicklab]

Well, something approaching a classical guitar type of fingering would probably be the most efficient way of playing the Bass VI "fingerstyle". I recall seeing John Lennon play one of the things in the Let It Be film on "The Long And Winding Road" and "Let It Be". As much as that made me lust after one, I had to abstain. And it makes me wonder, just how long ago was it that Fender re-issued the damn thing?!

[Jim T.]

I'm trying something rather radical...

After playing 6 stringers for over 10 years now,I'm having a luthier build me a short scale six. 30" scale with a low B. I will have a second nut made for EADGCF tuning just in case...but judging by a "frankenbass" I've been trying various spare parts out on, I think we can get the low B to speak well enough to suit me for scalar and chordal playing.

 

I've always used a .120 light gauge B and on my Fodera it's been fine. I'm up to a .125 on the frankenbass and I'd like to try a .135 for the short scale. Intonation is better with a lighter/thinner B on a 34" scale,but you'll lose a bit of disco booty BUT it will allow you to include that string in chords and scalar passages with greater ease.

 

I've always been challenged by standard scale basses (small hands) for soloing (for other than groove playing) and wanted to stay with a six, so....

 

I often use my low B. I've never felt that it has to be used sparingly and that it should be incorporated into the "whole" rather than just as an "extra" string. I've liked sixes for the ability to play across the neck rather than zooming up and down the neck all the time.

 

If anyone is interested in both my hairbrained short scale six ideas as well as luthier's responses to my questions, see www.talkbass.com in the "luthier's corner" forum. It's entitled: "I Have Seemingly Sidestepped Physics..."

 

If you read that thread and wish to add feedback please do that here-I'd like to leave that thread available for luthier's responses If possible.

 

I find that 17mm string spacing is very comfortable for my small hands across the neck but the stretch up the neck is still a bit of a stretch. It's time for short scale multi string basses to come into the modern age!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Hey Jim T. -- who's building that short-scale 6er for ya'?

[g.]

Jim T,

 

I just read your initial post there and not the entire thread. But I can say that I myself have never said it was impossible to get a low B at that scale. But my experiments have shown me that I would never WANT a B string at that scale whether using a 135 or a 145 or 150. At the lower gauge it just doesn't have enough partials above the fundamental contrinuting to the tone, and at the 145 or 150 gauge it is just too inflexible on top of that which makes the musical overtone contribution less yet. Kind of clanky too.

 

Just too dull; I can barely take a 30" scale E.

[g.]

And to once again to attempt to make it obvious why I don't like that short of a scale for that low of a pitch, I'll repeat this too: The floppyiness of the B in that case is such that it wants more relief and much more bridge height because of the excursion of the string, which is NOT going to be stright across no matter how earnestly one attempts to pick on that plane.

 

I am willing to make certain compromises and am well aware what they really are, but this particular one is beyond my threshold tonally and feelwise. It's amazing how much more one can get away with an octave up, before it becomes as poor a tradeoff (IMO). Like all geometric progression relationships...

[Jim T.]

Hi guys. Thanks for reading through the thread. .125 low B on the Bronco seems to give me enough tension to match the other strings fairly closely and give me some partials. I agree that a .135 is probably goint to be too big/thuddy but I'd sure like to try one.

(Anybody got one that's "shot" they wanna donate to scientific experimentation?)

 

I got a nice tone with lots of partials with the detuned E but it was pretty floppy even though the picking hand position helped that. I'm thinking that around a .120 might work best.

 

I'm having a bit of trouble telling 'cause the Bronco's pickup isn't picking up ALL of the low B's string excursion-unless I'm picking DOWN with my thumb which sends the string over the pickup a bit more. In that instance, it sounds pretty good!

 

Carey Nordstrand is my luthier. He seems willing to give this his best shot.

[Jim T.]

MP, If you get the chance, read the entire thread. It gets interesting and I've gotten a lot of feedback from luthiers there.

 

If you do, I'd value your further imput if you'd care to add more.

 

Jim

[g.]

Jim T,

 

the Linc Luthier Danger Bass

http://www.lincluthier.com/bass/dbass3.jpg

 

Oddly enough, someone's been considering the Linc Luthier Danger Bass as a Six. This bass has a 28" scale, which is mighty short for an E if you want any kind of percussive attack and tone. When he casually wondered about putting a low B on it I realy just had to counter with something along the lines of why not have a couple of different tuned instruments that aren't so compromised rather than trying to have it all in one instrument.

 

You know I'm not idly commenting here. I've been interested in extending range on a shorter scale too, and experimenting with capo and string gauges, armed with D'Addario's tension/tuning info and my spreadsheet I built for this for probably at least three years. I can barely conceive of a B I could live with on 30", based on what I hear and feel. But 28" - that's just too absurd. I'd hate the E on that, let alone a B.

 

I still think shortscale fan-fretted would be the way to go for a low B, if one wants a close-quarters instrument. I'm going to toss some values into the spreadsheet and change a couple of strings around on one of my basses to see if anything has changed in the way I'm hearing and feeling this.

[g.]

Hey Jim T,

 

I did read the entire thread when I had a chance. I was wondering why you were talking about custom-wound pickup with specific changes in the B string area. What were you looking for there? I have a few thoughts about that.

 

EDIT: PM me your phone number and I'll give you a call.

[Jim T.]

Well...in my coversations/emails with both Mike Pope and Seymour Duncan's custom shop, it was said that adding a bit of brightness to the low B "end" of the pickups would give better definition to the B. Adjustment of EQ/onboard pre frequencies were also recommended although I haven't heard particulars yet. I was also told that placing the bridge pickup at the octave harmonic ala Musicman(?) that it should help the low B to speak better.

 

With design changes such as further angled headstock and through body stringing (for better "bite" at the nut and bridge witness points", a stiff neck with ebony stringers (most luthiers if you read seemed to think that graphite would only add weight and it's stiffness is over exaggerated-which surprised me..._) and some pickup winding tweaking, we think we'll get close enough to make me happy. With the .125 on a very flexy Bronco neck, I'm already feeling like the B is feeling close to normal. I play with light gauge strings anyway so the difference is minimal. Even if I have to adapt my technique a bit the musical benefits will be worth that. I'm thinking that with all of the above taken into design/construction consideration I may not have to change my technique (such as it is) at all.

 

I've considered adding piezo pickups to the bridge to give additional bright/brittle leeway...

 

Carey Nordstrand has been very honest with me about not guaranteeing such a subjective thing as a "clear/focused" low B, but he seems to think the challenge would be fun and potentially rewarding.

[Jim T.]

Hi MP,

I'm NEVER home right now for phone calls. I'm involved with a family elder care situation right now...when I can, I'm in a recording session the rest of the time. But please feel free to PM me and I can answer as I pass through! Mad Scientists love a good confab! (I'm shy and awkward on the phone anyway...)

 

By the way, regarding bad sounding 30" E strings. I honestly feel that the construction and crapola pickups of short scales of the past made those E's sound bad. I played a lot of Broncos (with great doubts) when I happened across one that sounded pretty darn good! It projects very cleanly and with a good solid focused pitch. I think it all depends on the individual instrument, its construction and particular string brands. The Bronco's E actually sounded decent detuned to low B so I think if the instrument is designed and built with the goal(s) in mind one can't help but come out ahead of stock four string short scale basses.

 

[alexclaber]

I'm not quite sure why this happened, but whilst relaxing by the seaside avec my fretless I decided that I'm going to get 6-string Dingwall when my cashflow allows (i.e. in the next few years).

 

I use the entire range of my (4-string) Warwick and when writing or playing alone I often want some extra high range for chord voicing and when competing with other instruments (guitars being the main culprits) sometimes think I'd like to go down an octave to free up some space. And I'm noticing that as my technique improves the size of the nexk is becoming less of an issue with regards to speed and control, in fact I prefer the thicker (deeper) neck on my Frankenfretless to the very shallow neck on my Warwick.

 

As I've said before, a big concern of mine is having even tension across the strings and a balanced tone from lowest to highest notes, and no 5 or 6-string basses I've played so far has hit the mark IMO. The fanned-fret approach looks like such an elegant solution to the problem that I'm willing to go out on a limb and buy a Dingwall without playing one first. Before then, I'll have to save up (not too much though, the Afterburner is a conspicuous bargain!) and play plenty of other (preferably extra long-scale)sixes to make sure that I'm not going to hit any ergonomic brick walls.

 

Since returning to the world of the net I've been doing some research and discovered a near ideal model for me: the Afterburner 2. It's way cheaper than the Prima or Z1/Z2 basses but is still available with active electronics (Aguilar OBP-3, hurrah!) and a growly and Warwick-like wood combination, bubinga neck and top, mahogany body and wenge fingerboard.

 

Here's a fine example at Bass Central:

 

http://www.basscentral.com/basscombo/dingwall/DING_AB2_6.JPG_tn.jpg

 

Afterburner II / 6 Bubinga Top, African Mahogany Body, Bubinga Neck w/Wenge Fingerboard, Aguilar OBP-3 Preamp w/Active Passive Switch, Dingwall FD-1 Pickups.

 

You knew I'd succumb eventually!

 

Alex

[SteveC]

For what I have decided to work on, solo and extended range wise, I am going with a 4 string tenor bass - ADGC.

 

I loved th esound of my 5 too much to give it up for a 6 string. I also like that the neck is nice and small and I can get around to chord on it pretty well.

 

I thought I was going to join the 6 string club, but I am only there with my fretless at this point.

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by   :

Hey zeronyne! - pics from Warr Guitars Booth at NAMM Winter 2002 including beautiful instruments played by Randy Strom · Jim Wright · Brian Kenney Fresno · Ray Ashley · Ian Varialle:

I LOVE B.K.Fresno (who I mistakenly referred to as Kenny Wayne Fresno ).

 

Still thinkin' about that Warr...although after some extended correspondence with Don Schiff (thanks, Monsieur Whappo!), I may be leaning towards the NS Stick.

 

As a keyboard player (primarily in terms of competence), I don't really have the same perspective of urgency as bass players in regards to extending range. It would be hard for me to get more range than I have on my piano (well, I could get a Bosendorfer 290, but that's just plain silly). But I completely understand the need (not desire) for some musicians to extend the limits of their chosen instrument.

 

Hell, after you've seen BT to a couple hundred vocal edits per second using two lightbeam controllers, tripling the number of strings on a bass doesn't seem excessive at all.

[alexclaber]

Blame the (relatively) new Extended Range Bass forum for my renewed interest in this topic...

 

Tried a very bargainous 6-string the day before yesterday - £299 for a Hohner neck-thru active thing. Not a bad bass by any means. Sixes are comically rare over here so I haven't tried many but based on this most recent experience I'm now leaning towards a 29-fret 5-string to get the same range but with a slimmer neck and no weedy sounding C string.

 

Need to try some really high-end 6-strings to see how good they can be - I remember liking some Ken Smith and Fodera sixes that I tried a few years back but I wasn't thinking seriously about it then, so hard to be sure. Right now I'm concentrating more on the music as a whole rather than how I'm facilitating it so ERB acquisition is a low priority, but I'll keep trying out any big basses that come my way.

 

Alex

[_Sweet Willie_]

Yo C-Phunk!

 

Can you try some nice ones built on your side of the proverbial pond?

 

I wrote about my friend, Dan, in this thread , and he has two Overwater 7-string basses, which are made in England. I've had the chance to play one of them -- it was lovely, and although seven strings are a bit overwhelming for me, that bass made it seem possible to handle! (Airport landing strip for a fingerboard or not!!!) Chris May and his crew build lots of extended range instruments.

 

About a year ago I played a lovely 28-fret 5-string Jerzy Drozd bass at the Luthiers Access Group . Jerzy's based in Spain, so maybe some of his basses are around Europe, including the U.K.

 

I've heard nice things about Sei basses, too -- made in England. I've never played one though.

 

Peace.

--sweet'n'low

[tarkus]

We may as well take up the harp.

[knuckle_head]

Drubbing a dead horse perhaps - I hope not as I missed this thread when it was new and I wish I hadn't.

 

I am freshly back from NAMM Nashville and had two basses with me that venture into this territory. I hesitate to call what I do as extended range, though I can clearly be called extended scale.

 

My basses are 39.5" scale length and one 5'er was tuned a full octave down to E. My 6 was tuned to F#. Both seem to have been well received.

 

http://www.knuckleguitarworks.com/images/Blk.jpg

Full octave down

 

http://www.knuckleguitarworks.com/images/6.jpg

F# - G

 

Sorry if this is spam-ish

[a boy named sue]

Sorry if this is spam-ish

You'd have to tell us the price for it to be spam.

btw how much?

 

I got the following by PM

The two I posted are half of what I took to NAMM as new instruments, fwiw.

 

The black one is a production 5 and goes for $3k (as do production 4s)

 

The natural 6 is a custom as are all 6s and 7s (coming by winter NAMM) and start closer to $4k

 

I thought posting this in the forum would be bad form - but if you feel like spilling it to the crew I certainly wouldn't be offended

As those are all USD I think I'll get some lessons first! I thought people would like to get their GAS in perspective.

[knuckle_head]

You work quick.....

 

[zeronyne]

K-H, can I ask a few questions?

 

What is the distance between the nut and the first fret, and what is the distance between the first fret and the second? I'm trying to figure out if I can physically play a 39" scale...

 

Also, even at 39", doesn't a octave lower E become floppier than...well, floppy?

 

EDITED-because by typo completely cahnged the meaning of my post.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Fascinating.

 

39" scale?!?!

 

What does that feel like? Who makes strings that fit?

 

I haven't played longer than 35", and not every 35" has been comfortable for me -- an MTD 5-string and a Lull 5-string stand-out here as being delightful to play.

 

Such extended scale certainly allows extended range through options to tune lower w/ out ridiculous floppiness.

 

Peace.

--s-dub

[clatteramy]

Hey, Knuckle, you beat me to it! I was about to post about your basses then saw you'd already done so.

 

Well, as an impartial observer, I had the opportunity to play Skip's 4-string at the summer NAMM show and I was really amazed! I thought there was no way on the planet I could tackle a bigger bass, especially with my embarrassingly-stubby fingers. Skip had me slip one on and I immediately was startled by how light the bass was. As I played I noticed the difference in fret width, but again to my surprise I wasn't too bothered by it. I think it would mostly take some getting used to, especially for someone like me who sings and can't look at the fretboard while playing. To get to the extra length I found myself tilting the bass so that it was more diagonal, almost to the point of being an upright. I could easily reach the first frets this way.

 

I highly recommend that everyone try these basses out to experience their unique sound and feel. Each one is a work of art -- they're beautiful in the photos, but breath-taking in person! Really a cutting-edge design.

 

*when do I get my check, Skip?!*

[knuckle_head]

Originally posted by clatteramy:

*when do I get my check, Skip?!*

It's in the mail - give it 4 or 5 days.....

 

Originally posted by zeronyne:

What is the distance between the nut and the first fret, and what is the distance between the first fret and the second? I'm trying to figure out if I can physically play a 39" scale...

 

Also, even at 39", doesn't a octave lower E become floppier than...well, floppy?

2.125" and just over 2" respectively - but don't let specs sway you. It certainly is an adjustment and reach is to a degree compromised, but consider that a whole step lower tuning gives you standard tuning at the second fret - which makes the instrument a 35" scale length at that point. I am small - my hands are not much bigger than Amy's and the Quakes are all I play now. I sold off all my other gear.

 

The octave E is a .195 - plenty o tension I promise you. And lots of lively harmonics too - right up to the first fret harmonic.

 

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

What does that feel like? Who makes strings that fit?

 

I haven't played longer than 35", and not every 35" has been comfortable for me -- an MTD 5-string and a Lull 5-string stand-out here as being delightful to play.

 

Such extended scale certainly allows extended range through options to tune lower w/ out ridiculous floppiness.

the intervals are really the only adjustment - the overall length of the bass was extended both toward the nut and toward the bridge and when it's worn it is really quite comparable to most 35s or 36s.

 

Everly makes the strings I am using - their B-52s. Good tone and they maintain their brightness alot longer than most.

 

Gauge selection was based on string tension and the point was to do away with the floppiness. I think I did alright in that regard.

 

EDIT - fixed html

[bassarama19]

what amps do you have that can recreate such low notes?? how do you tune a note that low, most common tuners have problems picking up low b's. is the pitch even identifiable to the human ear that low??

[knuckle_head]

Originally posted by bassarama19:

what amps do you have that can recreate such low notes?? how do you tune a note that low, most common tuners have problems picking up low b's. is the pitch even identifiable to the human ear that low??

Oddly enough I use Korg's original DT-1 - the one that's the size of an audio cassette tape. Tunes perfectly with no latency so I can tune to attack or reslove though the difference is so very minimal,

 

Its accurate enough that I do most of my setups with it - though I do have access to a Petersen.

 

More than half of any fundamental note is the upper harmonics - psychoacoustics and such. I had AccuGrooves at NAMM that included a 21" sub the call the Whappo Grande. I drove that with an Aggie pre and a Crest power amp.

 

My personal rig used to have a 2x12 Bag End ELF with a full range 2x10 on top. I use cabs I built myself currently that are a 1x10/1x12 on top and a 1x15" sub.

 

It doesn't really take anything extraordinary unless you want to be REALLY loud.

[Wally Malone]

Didn't have time to read this whole thread so I don't know if this link has already been posted. Extended Range Bassist

 

Wally

[_Sweet Willie_]

Way cool, Wally. Thanks for sharin'!

 

Peace.

--SW

[g.]

zed9,

 

Of course you can play 39" scale. Little girls are playing doghouses ferkrishnasake!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Hmmmmmm, who pulled this thread up from the depths of the archives?