More frets and/or more strings (and other things) -- the world of extended range bass

[getz out]

ibescotty,

 

I'm not sure if 5 even qualifies as extended range nowadays!

 

But, the extra five notes on my B-string have helped me make more use of my E-string; basically by adding an option for 5ths to be played lower instead of higher.

 

It's actually a more comfortable instrument to play, as well. Especially when playing around an F-major chord. Could just be me. I'm lazy.

[jeremy c]

I went to five in the early 80's. There seemed to be a lot of songs with low C's, songs which which had the bass played on a keyboard. I bought the fiver in an attempt to take back the bassline from the keyboard players. Then I discovered the joys of playing in the key of F at the 6th fret and G at the 8th.

[SteveC]

I chose a 5 string fretted for a few reasons. I didn't want to change basses during a set. We had a couple tunes that I needed Eb and D. I also like the fingering options that the B string gives me. It also sounds great on all the other strings. It's a great sounding bass PERIOD.

 

The fretless 6 was bought because at the time I was looking for a fretless I was (and still am) listening to a lot of Yellowjackets and Jimmy Haslip. You need the 6 to play that stuff. I also like havng the extended range for soloing when doing jazz combo gigs.

 

I couldn't do all of those things on a 4. I still have a 4, and I like it. I just seem to be playing the others more regularly. I think, and hope, I am growing as a player and musician and am trying topush my linmits. I just didn't have what I needed on a 4 string any more. That's just me. Your results may vary.

 

Actually, I have been kicking around the idea of a Conklin 7 string. I don't think I would ever go more than that. My hands are pretty small. The "solo bass" thing is interesting to me. I don't know if I could ever work up enough good and interesting material, or if I would ever be good enough, but I am curious.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by ibescotty:

To all the stringaholics out there.

 

What problem did you need to solve? What hurdle did you need to overcome that made you crave more frets or strings?

 

This is a great question, ibescotty! I love some of the things that Maury and Jeremy mentioned -- key of F starting at the 6th fret, key of G starting at the 8th fret, dropping down to the 1st fret C or 3rd fret D from the G or A on the E-string. Spreading out chords across the fingerboard.

 

I would like a 5-string fretted now. Maybe I'll be able to make that happen soon...

[Nicklab]

I had what I think of as a weird situation. A good friend of mine introduced me to the 6. He had been playing it for a few years, and also introduced me to one of my teachers. My teacher was a big proponent of the instrument, and showed me just how much was possible with a 6 string.

 

So, after playing 4 string for all of 1 year, I saved up some dough and bought an Ibanez Soundgear 6 string. As a result of the influence of my friend and my teacher, I took up the 6 and just went from there.

 

It wasn't a matter of overcoming some stumbling block or needing something more. Rather, it was a case of starting fresh with it and moving forward from there. I think as an added side effect, I didn't fall into a trap that many people have talked about: overusing the b string. I've just heard stories about people playing 4 string for a long time, then getting a 5 or 6 string, and then overusing the b string.

 

I gotta agree with Maury too. I've come to really prefer playing in F at the 6th fret of the B string. I just don't dig having that open A ringing out when I play in F. It messes with my patterns! Also, not having to detune to play in keys like D or Eb is nice, too. I like to have those low notes available to me. However, tuning down to A has happend on at least a couple of songs over the years.

[The Bear Jew]

PS: The mantra "WWLD?" would completely change the nature of this discussion...

Would it?

 

I recall seeing a "bass roundtable" with TM Stevens, Billy Sheehan and some other fancypants bassists in an old issue of some guitar magazine. And the best quotes in the whole article came from one Mr. Ian Kilmister. Ya know, Lemmy.

 

TM had cool things to say, and so did Mr. Sheehan, but they all came around to the same points Lemmy mentioned. They talked technique stuff, basses and gear, but the Lemmy kinda sized up the whole thing in a few simple sentences. I'm paraphrasing from memory here, so cut me some slack.

"The important thing is doing what it takes to make the music work. That's what really matters. Everything else is wanking shit."

 

Think about it... as a few other enlightened folks here already mentioned, the real key to the use (or usefulness) of any instrument isn't how many strings or frets it has, but rather how well it helps its player create the sounds necessary to enhance their music.

 

And, as Lemmy would say, everything else is just wanking shit.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Ahhhhhh...sage, very sage.

[jeremy c]

That would be a great name for a jazz group I've been playing with lately (where the slowest tune we play is around 180 bpm):

 

Wankin' Shit

 

Anyone want to buy a band T-Shirt?

[alexclaber]

A few more thoughts on this...

 

If it wasn't called a bass would the instrument be pigeonholed so much? It may be semantics but the name is rather restrictive. Anthony Jackson has referred to the bass guitar as the lowest pitched member of the guitar family and that certainly frees up the function associated with the instrument - he says he plays contrabass guitar.

 

I like the idea of being in a trio with either a keyboard player or extended range guitarist and being able to swap roles, which I'm hoping to do as my current writing/recording project develops into a full blown band.

 

How do you maintain a good recorded tone as you go ever lower? I know JT has mentioned the unsolved difficulty of making his F# strung Conklins go down onto 'tape' and sound audible let alone good. Even if you get it to sound good in the studio, how well will it come out on conventional systems, and how much apparent volume and headroom will it eat up from the mix? And what about live when you're at the mercy of strange acoustics and poor PA systems - how do you make those lower notes retain punch, definition and useful pitch information? (This isn't an attack on going low, I'm merely voicing my concern at overcoming the compromised audio systems we're doomed to being heard through).

 

I wonder if it would be possible to design an instrument whose tonewoods vary as you move from low to high? For example, the lowest strings could have have wenge neck laminates running from bridge (one of those separated bridges a la Ibanez BTBs) to nut, with a hard maple body wing on that side and ebony fingerboard, whilst under the higher strings could be walnut laminates, a soft hollow alder body wing and a rosewood fingerboard. Combined with tilted pickups (a la Warwick Thumb) this might ensure the high strings have enough thickness and the low strings enough clarity.

 

Alex

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

I wonder if it would be possible to design an instrument whose tonewoods vary as you move from low to high?

 

Sheldon Dingwall does this in some of his models. For the two-piece ash bodies he uses denser ash on the bass half of the body and lighter/less dense ash on the treble half.

 

On his Prima (I think?) he uses walnut on the bass half and alder on the treble half.

 

Combine this with his tilted pickups and you see something similar to what you've described, Alex.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Sheldon Dingwall does this in some of his models. For the two-piece ash bodies he uses denser ash on the bass half of the body and lighter/less dense ash on the treble half...

That man has a talent for putting innovative ideas into practice!

 

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Combine this with his tilted pickups and you see something similar to what you've described...

Actually, his pickups tilt the opposite way relative to the bridge saddles despite their appearance. They'd look pretty crazy if they were tilted as I suggested. I presume he doesn't need to use the pickup positioning to balance the amplified tone because the scale length variation achieves it acoustically.

 

With all this talk, I can once again see a Dingwall in my future, though the lack of them in the UK should do a fine job of protecting me from short term GAS!

 

Alex

[jeremy c]

Not to take anything away from Sheldon Dingwall (he makes great instruments), the fanned fret concept was invented by Ralph Novak.

 

Charlie Hunter's Novax 8 string, a truly innovative instrument, played by a truly innovative player, was built by Ralph.

 

Charlie Hunter with his Novax 8 string and Trip Wamsley with his Alembic 8 string are players who are pioneering these new instruments.

 

With one of these guys in your band, you don't need a guitarist and a bassist, one guy can do everything.

 

Last month I got to see Trip Wamsley, Steve Lawson and Michael Manring play together. What the three of them did shows that extended range basses are the only instruments needed to get a complete musical result.

 

Whereas, three guitarists playing together would be a mess.

 

And let's not even think about three drummers.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Last month I got to see Trip Wamsley, Steve Lawson and Michael Manring play together.

Out of curiosity, Jeremy, did more than one play fretless at a time, or was it always one fretless + two fretted or three fretted?

 

Yes, it is the Novax fanned fret system. I didn't mean to suggest that Sheldon came up with it, only that he uses it in his work. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Peace.

--sweet'n'low

[jeremy c]

Trip was playing 8 string fretted (and singing), Steve was playing 6 string fretted, and Michael was playing 4 string fretless.

[g.]

Another band that approaches expansion of ideas with expansion of instrumentation is SLEEPYTIME GORILLA MUSEUM . From the bioblat: "Their instrumental array shifts from song to song, including many homemade devices suggestive of the avant-garde, but they are thoroughgoing populists, warmly regarding their varied audiences and embracing their role as entertainers".

 

They are also "dedicated to undermining bloated contemporary notions of freedom". This includes bassist Dan Rathbun, who has built a Slide Piano Log that is considerably longer than Dan is tall. Dan plays this unworldly bass instrument when 5-string bass treatments will not go low enough or weird enough to transport players and listeners to new stories and environments.

 

Here are some thumbnails to click to see illustrative pics -

 

Starry Plough, Berkeley California, May 3 2002 (this shows one of violinist Carla Kihlstedt's similar instruments)

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-05-03-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/DSC00485.jpg

 

Knitting Factory, Hollywood, California, June 20 2002

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-06-20-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/DSC02992.jpg

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-06-20-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/DSC02997.jpg

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-06-20-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/DSC03011.jpg

 

Oakland Metro, Oakland California, December 18 2002

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-12-18-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/DSC07372.jpg

 

Oakland Metro, Oakland California, August 1 2003

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2003-08-01-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/Dsc00748.jpg

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2003-08-01-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/thumbnails/Dsc00758.jpg

 

Check out the other fantastic photos of fantastic performance and instrumentation settings at their site. Also have a look at closeups of the Slide Bass Log instrument in a non-performance setting:

• huge piano strings over pickup & preamp area
  
• capos (borrowed from Red Green or Tim Taylor?)
  

I'll hazard that neither SLEEPYTIME GORILLA MUSEUM nor Chromatic Fantasy digital photographer David J Grossman - never lose sleep wondering if someone in the audience thought too many notes were played on the low B string to be tasteful. Ideas for expansion of expressive technology probably come from a different muse than the nonmuse that feeds the all too common IRS taxman mentality ;  }

 

Time for greenboy to order some flights of fancy...

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2003-08-01-sleepytime-gorilla-museum/Dsc00540.jpg

 

 

<--            ---<<<<

[g.]

Hey zeronyne! - pics from Warr Guitars Booth at NAMM Winter 2002 including beautiful instruments played by Randy Strom · Jim Wright · Brian Kenney Fresno · Ray Ashley · Ian Varialle:

 

clickme http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-01-18-warr-booth/icon.jpg

[g.]

Gotta love any guy that'd extend the range of a touch style instrument using sock puppets -

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-01-18-warr-showcase/DSC07277.jpg

 

That'd be Brian Kenney "Fresno"(clickit!) , who is probably one of the wilder LOOPERS around. He "maintains an elusive attitude toward recording; only a handful of songs from his vast repetoire have been captured on tape. Fresno relies on the strength and magic of the live performance as a unique experience..." and has a "liberal taping policy that not only encourages cult members to record, but actually leaves the documenting of that moment in history to them alone."

 

Check out his rig, anybody who has a fear of cyberwiring ; }

[g.]

Arf! CAPTURED BY ROBOTS has a website!

 

And also some live performance shots (klikthepiks):

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-05-04-captured-by-robots/thumbnails/DSC00603.jpg http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-05-04-captured-by-robots/thumbnails/DSC00591.jpg entire set here: http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2002-05-04-captured-by-robots/icon.jpg

 

I guess the doubleneck precedence is rather obvious now. But wow - this is extending the range in some other ways too...

[g.]

Wow!

 

http://www.chromatic-fantasy.com/2003-09-27-bassquake2003/Dsc02862.jpg

 

- /me thinking of muting technique

[Tom Capasso]

I've got the sense that two themes are running here (because they are so closely related). I'm not going to the extended range/extended role discussion. I'm still primarily a bass player who sneaks up high to do some melody when I can. In this way, I suspect I'm like some of you (and this is where I think Nicklab was trying to place himself). All that is going on to get beyond a "common" number of strings, and the way "basses" are doing other things is cool, but it's not where I see myself. So I went back to Willie's question:

 

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Anyway, I'd like to read people's thoughts about different ways to extend the range of our instruments and what we might gain or lose thru adding frets, adding strings, or altering our tunings.

I am struggling a bit with this right now. I went to a 5 string in the last 18 months, and it took some work. I find I'm not fretting near the nut and using the "more positions available" idea of a 5 string. There is a reason for this - I went from a 30.5" to 34.5" scale, so those other notes are "further away" than they used to be.

 

I don't go below low D very often. I do get up high, and notice that the frets get pretty narrow up there (I've got 24 frets). Given all that, I've been considering changing my tuning (and possibly strings, but I haven't gotten there yet). I'm thinking D G C F Bb. This would give me more room up top to play solos out of the "bass" range.

 

So I've stated my concern for longer scale, though I could learn to reach it (I'm physically big enough). I've talked about more frets (I like it). And 5 seems about right for me, though there are days I think I'll buy a good 34" 4 string. In doing any of these things, I'm not stressing any part of the materials/engineering of the instruments.

 

And why not change the tuning? I'm not sure I can do that without lots of mental work to readjust my thinking. Given my work/practice schedule, I'm holding off...

 

Tom

[g.]

Tom,

 

I've done that tuning. I've also done it starting on C#. Besides the problems it may cause for yourself (I got used to it but didn't always like it on E and A-keyed songs) or guitarists in your band who listen too much with their eyes {;}, there's also the issue of getting better string gauges for it.

 

Could just go E-A-D-G-C and use a hipshot on the E. That's what I'll do for whatever ends up being my lowest string on my Phoenix'd Ibanez fretless Six V-Bass monster.

 

But it sounds like you just need a little shove to commit to PLAYING your 5 string fully and comfortably. Then you'll settle in, probably. What's your string spacing anyway? Can you shift your playing position / strap to make it easier on yourself?

[g.]

Tom, I also don't think for a lot of the extendeed range players it's necessarily just about having more high note melody or solo space. I gave some examples earlier in the thread of thinking of the instrument as a couple of layers - one usually lower and playing the basic parts, and the other one interjecting, adding, embellishing or doubling.

 

The other was to think of it like a drum kit.

 

Another way to think of it is like a piano (or other extended keyboard) - where one can play a bass part while also interjecting chords, counterlines, melodies, whatever. It's really wide open to the player's conception of music.

 

Given my limited experience using electronic approaches, a string or two more than the Four, and a bit more of what I said above, it seemed like a neat way to make a three piece band seem more capable of orchestrated variety. I kind of grab up some rhthm guitar space, some keyobaord or horn space, etc. Definitely can make it nice for guitar solo time in a three-piece, with even a little of this just placed in the right areas.

 

But I think it works anywhere, really - if a band wanted a [another] keyboard player or guitarist, for instance, and the "bassist" could provide additional colors and textures and also supply the bass role (or at times allow others to as well) - why not?

 

This is even working in cover bands for some of the extended range players. Certainly if they are central to the repetoire of a band, it works.

 

I get a real charge at looking at bands like NUCLEAR RABBIT (somewhere in this thread I've linked some) though - in this case the bas player is obviously a visual attraction, doing the "shredding" thing, and making any flashy guitarist who isn't secure (and that's got to be about 10%!) nervous. That guy and others like him really can share the ftontman spotlight in a new way - partly because of the extended range.

[ibescotty]

Originally posted by   :

[QB]

Could just go E-A-D-G-C and use a hipshot on the E. That's what I'll do for whatever ends up being my lowest string on my Phoenix'd Ibanez fretless Six V-Bass monster.

 

QB]

If I had more disposable income I'd buy myself a 5 and string it just like that. The hipshot is a great ammendment to this plan. I just installed a hipshot on my P-Bass and it's great. Though I may post a question about here in the near future.

 

E-A-D-G keeps me in familiar territory while the C adds allows me to grow and, er, well... extend the range of my bass!!

[g.]

I think adding a higher-pitched C would have screwed me more up at first. But I was coming from limited handling of basses and guitars, but not being a 4-string player except at occasional jams when there was desperation ; }

 

I think one could always take a mild-colored magic marker to the B string to keep from using it "accidentally" ; }

 

Actually the high C is really cool though. I gigged that way even for heavy music, once I decided I wanted to try more things. It was very nice to have around.

 

Matt Garrison uses the high C approach; I think he's usually playing it on a 33" scale Fodera (he's scaled slightly shorter anyway). That's partly for fluent soloing, and partly to have the C string speak less tensely. They seem a little brittle on a longer scale...

[Fred TBP]

In my rush to type this out and get back to watching "Star Trek:Enterprise" I may be introducing some made-up verbiage, so bear with me, I'm typing faster than I can think...

 

In the past 10 years I've explored 6, 7, 8 and 12 string basses. Here's what I came up with:

 

-I still play 4 and 5 strings. Love slapping on 4s, sliding around on the 5s.

-6 works for me, enough notes and chord positions to keep me busy and I can play it for 3 sets without serious hand cramps.

-7 gave me some hand cramps (Conklin) despite the special carvings but it gave me some interesting chord possibilities.

-"Version A" (4 roots, 4 octave) 8 I still own, can be played with pick or fingers, because the neck is slightly wider than a 4 allows for good runs and a full unmuddied tone.

-"Version B" (low F# to high F) 8 had a low F-sharp which I couldn't get in tune without a decent scope, and I found the note hard to reproduce without serious amplification. It just bottoms out on most production amps. So I played around with the high C and F tuned down to B and E and played some guitar. Nice with a pick, but hell on fingerstyle.

-12 (Hamer Chapparel USA model) HAS to be played with a pick, but the problem is the octave strings tend to overwhelm the bass strings, unless you separate the strings somehow. I'd like to see how Tom Peterssen does it.

 

I even fooled with a Chapman once, but that takes re-learning the instrument. VERY interesting two-handed things I've seen with this instrument in the hands of the experienced.

 

What I DID like was using a good octave harmonizer (EBS) on my 6 and playing on the upper octaves. The lower "synth" sounding note tends to sound cool, especially with a little tube-fattening on it.

 

*** FRED, WHAT'S YOUR POINT? ***

 

OK, my point here is that I found it easier to synthesize the lower octave note that spending all that time developing alternate fingering techniques to accomodate different string/neck setups. So my next goal is to go with a Roland synth pickup attached to my 6.

 

Then again I'm rediscovering the sheer joy and abandon of just slamming away on a good 4-string.

Sometimes you forget you're supposed to have fun at what you love to do...

 

And speaking of fun, it's TV time...

[jeremy c]

Don't tell me what happens on Enterprise, it's not on yet for three more hours here.

[g.]

FTBP: (low F# to high F) 8 had a low F-sharp which I couldn't get in tune without a decent scope

Not too much of problem here, when I was doing it with just a detuned .135 B string. I could tune it by ear the easiest, though each of my built0in tuners on TransTubeFEX, BP-8, or V-Bass could do it to harmonic.

 

When did you check this 8 out? Until recently, not too much string research was done to actually make a decent string for this application/scale length. Even more recently, low F# below that has been pushed on by a few companies I am aware of.

 

and I found the note hard to reproduce without serious amplification. It just bottoms out on most production amps

Didn't really have problem with my main rig. Can't use tissue paper when paper towels are required though ; } ...Actually it was amazing what my isobaric design experiments of a couple years ago could do with these notes though.

 

my next goal is to go with a Roland synth pickup attached to my 6.

If you mean hgexaphonic pickups with 13 pin driver, like the Roland GK-2B, Axon has a cool looking unit for cheaper. Let me know when and I'll dig it up for you. Axon seems highly regarded for this kind of thing.

 

Myself, my Six is going to get a Hipshot Bridge with GraphTech Ghost piezo saddle and internal electronics system, which may surpass RMC piezos for quality and durability, and cost. This project is actually a GraphTech/Hipshot collaboration that should be available soon.

 

Sometimes you forget you're supposed to have fun at what you love to do...

Fun is in the ear of the behearer. And the mind of the experimenter : }

[g.]

Ah, as Willie and I were talking about various cool bass things we are going after or fascinated by he ran across another bass that fits the Bass VI profile; this one at Ernie Ball:

 

http://www.ernieball.com/mmonline/specs/instruments_silhbass.html

 

The Silhouette looks like a very good example of flexibility sonically, and the profile is attractive too... not to mention a great color selection.

 

...I've also heard a rumor that Danelectro might do another extended manufacturing run of some of their upgraded instruments of this type, after shutting down some time ago.

[Nicklab]

I recall the Fender Bass VI made a comeback a few years ago. They might've only reissued it for a year or two. I tried it out at Sam Ash once, and it was definitely interesting. The string spacing was really tight, though. It's definitely suited more to a guitar player or someone who plays with a pick.

 

I don't know how Jack Bruce functioned on the thing playing fingerstyle. I was tempted to get it, but though better of it in the end. It seemed like more of a luxury item at the time.

[g.]

Yeah, they are at or very near electric guitar spacing. Fingerstyle as we've come to know it can be dicey ; } ...On the other HAND, some electric guitarists have been fingerstyle or thumbstyle, with no PICKS for at least part of their appreciated career.

 

I think I'd prefer a hybrid spacing more like 14-15 mm for such an instrument however. And I wouldn't want a whammy bar...