coyote Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 That's not misogynist, it's merely a bigoted generalization. (There is a vast gulf between the two.) Originally posted by bc: 3. Simmons was misogynist in the Bass Player interview when he said that women were unsuited to playing bass. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by coyote: That's not misogynist, it's merely a bigoted generalization. (There is a vast gulf between the two.)Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cup Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Who in this forum belives themselves to be credible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Credible Capable of being believed; plausible. Worthy of confidence; reliable. I think I'm credible. Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Oh rubbish. If I said African Americans shouldn't play classical music, because they were at a genetic disadvantage, would that be racism or bigoted generalisation? You're trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 They call me Dr. Love, and I'm hotter than hell because I was made for lovin' you, baby. So c'mon and love me and my sweet pain, and we can drink cold gin unless you're a parasite with a love gun or a plaster caster, in which case you should know your man is workin' hard and is worth a deuce. After all, you got, got nothing to lose. Folks... I'm one of those guys who DON'T think Kiss is a totally lousy band. Yeah. That's right. Sure, Ace and Peter are pretty shady musicians (Peter is worse than Ace, IMO), but they're all pretty decent singers with good pop/rock songwriting sensibilities. I mean, you can't HEAR make-up and explosions on recordings (ok, yeah, you CAN hear explosions, but you know what I mean)... My point is, the band put out some recordings with an appeal that transcended its image. Cool things came from Kiss... beyond fire-breathing, exploding guitars and fireworks. So quit trashing Kiss, OK? It's making me sad. I like Kiss. A lot. I enjoy the music for what it is - mindless rock n' roll without pretensions or complicated messages. Ya know... FUN? But... I think Gene should probably just shut the heck up and enjoy counting his money. I'm suprised anyone takes his statements seriously at all anymore. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lullguy Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I don't need anybodys approval to play any kind of music that I want to. Cred is bullshit. Anybody who bases what they do on their credibility even a little might be missing the point. If certain people don't like it,then they don't. What can be done? Hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Credibility is merely just someones ability to be plausible, believed, and reliable. I don't think that's bullshit at all. I think it's a worthy cause. KISS believe it or not is credible. They put what they are right up front and they don't pretend to be anything they're not. The good and the bad are out there love it or hate it. I believe that they are everything they say they are. Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Also why does credibility have to have anything to do with peoples approval? Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb291 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Exactly, what does credibility have to do with approval? I think your statement, although not purposefully, echoes Lull's remark that "credibility is bullshit." And I completely agree. What makes a musician credible? His musical training? As Gene stated, this is completely irrelevant. Take Irving Berlin for example. An immigrant with no musical training, who became one of the most popular American songwriters of all time. I say if the music's good, if it touches or moves you, who cares about the artist's "credibility." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by danb291: Take Irving Berlin for example. An immigrant with no musical training, who became one of the most popular American songwriters of all time.Irving Berlin was a musical genius, though. There is a difference (slight) between him and Gene Simmons. The most popular Christmas song of all time was written by a Jewish guy. You have to love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lullguy Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 What would credibility mean without other peoples opinions to support it or not? Usually when you hear somebody doubting someones credibiltiy as far as music is concerned its weather or not they think that they should have the right to make the kind of music they are making.In that way,i think its bullshit. I think people should make the kind of music they want,regardless. I didn't grow up in DC,NYC,or any other punk town,don't have liberty spikes,didn't see the Pistols,don't even like them,but if I decide I want to play music with a punk style to it,I will. If someone decides that i don't have the cred,too bad. You hear about this kind of thing all the time. You either can physically do it,or you can't. Cred,to me,is something totally different and shouldn't apply to the kind of music i chose to play. Hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I haven't read about Irving Berlin. But his music seems to have a lot of earmarks of intelligence and inspiration, tempered by something a little more sophisticated than 1-4-5. So somewhere along he got a 2 and maybe some of the other numbers. Maybe he was a self-educated seeker, not "schooled", but it seems he found some things out. This is not quite the same as being ignorant and wanting to REMAIN ignorant ; } . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 /me looks for database-driven forum posting script to insert tough street cred words into posts more often. One can never have enough when they are passionate. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlock1016 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 It all depends on how you define so-called "credibility." There's an excellent article about the deaths of Robbin Crosby (Ratt) and Dee Dee Ramone (both died about the same time), and according to Rock Critic types, we're supposed to care more about the fact that Ramone died, than Robbin, because his music was more "important." On a related rant, the one time Kiss tried to do something to please the critics (The Elder), it blew up in their face. (Granted, this came after Dynasty and Unmasked, two rather weak pop albums.) It's a catch-22, no matter what. If you want to create "art", you're arrogant. If you want to play the biggest arenas possible, and bust your ass to get there, and be paid well for doing so, you're arrogant again. It's enough to make weaker people go off to be dental-floss salesmen. I'm done with my rant. I'll now go back to my little corner. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 One would wonder if Irving Berlin had a long tongue if it wasn't for memoirs written by the many groupies of those wild, wanton times ; } . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockinredneck69 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I'm amazed you all are still pissin off at each over this one...kinda cool to see some passion in here! That said ...it kinda seems like Mr. Simmons comments on what it takes to be viewed as a credible musician got turned into whether or not he himself is one. Past the usual dribble about corporate sell-out and circus performers, Kiss has influenced popular music today. I think there is some credibility to that. Now lets all shake hands, give hugs...whatever it takes Donnie Peterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lullguy Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Sorry if my horrible,unreasonable language offended anybody that is FAR TOO INTELLIGENT to even think of using such words. I'm impressed by you ,and I'm truly sorry. Feel better? Hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Almost, but your punctuation needs work, too. Chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Who's offended? ; } I was just noticing a trend in several posts today that probably indicated blood vessels about to pop in someone's neck on certain hot-button issues, a horrible thing it is too ; } . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 Weelllll, dogies! I done started a goldern full-blown controversy in here! Y'all keep argyin'. It's funny. KISS still rocks, by the way. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hilarious! I'll just never feel the same again now about listening to JPJ or Entwistle, or Boosty, Verdine White and Bernard Edwards. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basshappi Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I am not credible, I am Incredible! Nothing is as it seems but everything is exactly what it is - B. Banzai Life is what happens while you are busy playing in bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaguer Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 It really does just depend on what you set out to do. I never liked Kiss because I found their music really uninspired. But there's thousands of people who love their music. People say they are great cartoon characters; but that is PRECISELY what they set out to do. They didn't want to be musicians, they wanted to be celebrities. They worked very hard and they achieved that, so for that alone Gene Simmons can say whatever he wants. But credibility comes in many packages. Rock critics and fellow rockers can give you cred but it is usually because you are "one of them" or because you fit into what they are currently into, or because you're famous and everyone wants a seat on the train. But there is also musician cred and Mr. Simmons will probably never get that. I doubt he can walk into a jam session or gig he hasn't done before and impress others with his versatility. Guys who do this for a living sacrifice an awful lot and their credibility is about going out every day and playing a lot of different, challenging gigs to make the rent and car payments. Gigs where you don't play the same set all the time and rehearse the same old songs. There's a certain amount of pride that goes with knowing that you can walk into various situations, have stuff thrown at you and you do a good job and the next day go do it all over again. That is something that Mr. Simmons will probably never experience. He may not want to experience that, and that's fine, God bless him. Most musicians never experience the success and money which Kiss has achieved but they still go out there day after day and do it. Obviously there is a lot more to being a musician than the black/white concept of Gene Simmons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockinredneck69 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I still have the opinion that Kiss rules! Donnie Peterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 There is definitely a distinction. One may have the belief you stated, without having any hatred whatsoever of African-Americans. Misogynism is defined as hatred of women, not as having a set of beliefs about their abilities. Definitions and distinctions are important. Hang the "bigot" label on Simmons; based on his statement about women being unsuited to playing bass that label is accurate. Save the 'misogynist' label for Gary Leon Ridgway, or Mike Tyson. It's too strong to hang on someone who merely thinks playing bass is a masculine prerogative. Originally posted by bc: Oh rubbish. If I said African Americans shouldn't play classical music, because they were at a genetic disadvantage, would that be racism or bigoted generalisation? You're trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Two rules for defending the indefensible: 1. Never admit you're wrong. 2. Try to turn it into an argument about semantics. Extract from Simmons's BP interview: BP: a lot of people say your work is misogynistic. KS: It is, without question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 OK, that I hadn't seen. I've not read his interviews thoroughly, nor listened to his lyrics. Based on this new information, I was wrong. Originally posted by bc: Two rules for defending the indefensible: 1. Never admit you're wrong. 2. Try to turn it into an argument about semantics. Extract from Simmons's BP interview: BP: a lot of people say your work is misogynistic. KS: It is, without question.I do not defend the indefensible (actually. sometimes I will for the sake of a good discussion ). I merely adhere to the principles of the nation I live in: Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Once again, there's a difference - and it's far more than semantics. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by bc: Two rules for defending the indefensible: 1. Never admit you're wrong. 2. Try to turn it into an argument about semantics. Extract from Simmons's BP interview: BP: a lot of people say your work is misogynistic. KS: It is, without question. Umm, yeah bc, maybe you have a point there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 If only more people could only agree that I was right all along the world would be a better place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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