Jode Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Just when I think I can't love Gene any more, he nails it again. From this month's Bass Guitar : "It's a delusional notion, credibility. You've got a bunch of guys, in any band, who are too lazy or unwilling to go to music school and learn music theory and how to read and write music. And then you worry about credibility? From whom? From other musicians who are unskilled? Because you'll never get credibility from jazz musicians and classical musicians; they just think you're an amateur, a primitive player. You either succeed - in which case people are going to be willing to put their money down - or you don't." "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 That guy annoys the crap out of me, but I can't deny that he's one smart dude. And isn't it shocking that he equates success w/ money? Ah, nice marmot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb291 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Yeah he is one psycho bass player. He's got a real interesting philosophy on life.....right. Check out his interview in the artists section of the Bass Player Archives (archives.bassplayer.com). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockinredneck69 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I've always enjoyed Gene Simmon's points of view of the way he sees things. I think what rubs people the wrong way about him is that he equates most things into black and white, right or wrong...choices made. Donnie Peterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A. Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 yeah, you have to respect a middle-aged man dressed up like a psychotic mime, playing such musical masterpieces. Insert inaccurate quote here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thingus Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Dont flip out or nothing, but I dont have much respect for kiss. To much glam for me, but Gene is a good guy. He has a great philosophy, but musically I never found him very interesting. Im not trying to start no trouble! Im just a dreamer Dreaming my life away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 You must respect Gene for his integrity. He will tell you point-blank that he got into rock and roll for girls and money, and he has had truckloads of both. He has accomplished all of his career goals as a musician - raise your hand if you have too. Hmm, I don't see many hands. I know mine's not raised. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I do not dig KISS music. It's simplistic and banal. I do have enormous respect for Gene Simmons. Someone said he equates success with money. That's not quite accurate - he says (paraphrase) "I succeeded in creating a musical spectacle that people enjoy and want to see. Because I succeeded, I have made my money and had my women - which are also goals I succeeded in achieving." By that measure, he has definitely succeeded musically. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Kiss sucked as musicians, but were good entertainers. I never got into them, as I was much too young for their scene when they were first getting popular. Gene has an interesting view on things. I'm often entertained reading his opinions on this, that, or the other thing over there. He's a mediocre bassist, at best. Monster chops were hardly the point of Kiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A. Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 as far as the business side of things go, kiss is a bunch of marketing geniuses. as far as putting on a show they can do that too. musically, i'd rather listen to nails on a chalkboard. every time i hear one of their songs at a bar, i want to rock and roll all night somewhere else. Insert inaccurate quote here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Probably it's Kiss's manager that was the marketing whizz (though I don't know for sure). They really didn't seem much about music so I didn't pay much attention to them aftre checking them out here and there. I've read things Gene Simmons has said. Sure there's an intelligence there. But so what? He seems like a lot of internet trolls really - tailoring statements to offend, from the position he thinks HE holds. Ha. Big deal. A grain of truth does not make a castle. But bucks can make a castle, if the neighborhood has a building variance. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Yeah, I'm with greenboy on this. Coming up with an interesting philosophy is easy. Just say stuff, make it kind of blunt, and don't contradict yourself too obviously too often, & you've got it. Coming up with an insightful, true philosophy is something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a boy named sue Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Yeah, I'm with greenboy on this. Coming up with an interesting philosophy is easy. Just say stuff, make it kind of blunt, and don't contradict yourself too obviously too often, & you've got it. Coming up with an insightful, true philosophy is something different yeah, its got to be in german and use big words to be 'true' philosophy... A man is not usually called upon to have an opinion of his own talents at all; he can very well go on improving them to the best of his ability without deciding on his own precise niche in the temple of Fame. -- C.S.Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by tom rivet: yeah, its got to be in german and use big words to be 'true' philosophy... Right. Because you absolutely must speak in German whenever it's heavy business. Take it away, Jim Pons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockinredneck69 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I find it interesting that people either love Kiss or hate them. I disagree that they suck as musicians...hell, I suck as a musician! I do think they got incredibly lucky as they found a mixture of loud rock'n'roll, glam and flashpots that like or not it has influenced many of your favorite bands. IMO, would enjoy debating the pros and cons of what Kiss has contributed to music...or rather, the music scene. Donnie Peterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I'm sure that Simmons doesn't genuinely think it isn't possible for untrained musicians to be credible (he's on the record as a major Beatles fan, for a start). Why would it suit him to pretend you can't make credible music unless you you have a sophisticated technique and awareness of musical theory? Because he's uncomfortable with the comparison made between Kiss and other acts who sold less records but get more critical plaudits. By this criteria whether The Beatles are better than, say, The Eagles, can be determined by a simple totting up of record and concert ticket sales. I don't believe a word he's saying, and I don't think he does either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by bc: I'm sure that Simmons doesn't genuinely think it isn't possible for untrained musicians to be credible (he's on the record as a major Beatles fan, for a start). Why would it suit him to pretend you can't make credible music unless you you have a sophisticated technique and awareness of musical theory? Because he's uncomfortable with the comparison made between Kiss and other acts who sold less records but get more critical plaudits. By this criteria whether The Beatles are better than, say, The Eagles, can be determined by a simple totting up of record and concert ticket sales. I don't believe a word he's saying, and I don't think he does either.You're missing the point. Does a band accomplish the goals it sets for itself? In this regard, both the Beatles and KISS are smashing successes. It's called success on your own terms. On the 'credible' end of things, I'm sure Larry Coryell is totally satisfied with his level of 'success', and he is hardly a household name. The question is whether you did the things you set out to do. For me so far, and I'm guessing for many if not most of the rest of you, the answer is a resounding NO. God bless Gene Simmons - he did it. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 "You're missing the point. Does a band accomplish the goals it sets for itself? ..... The question is whether you did the things you set out to do." No, I'm not missing the point. As your own thread heading makes clear, Simmons is primarily offering his thoughts on the subject of "credibility". He suggests that if you don't study music seriously in the same way as a classical or jazz musician you have already opted out of the "credibility" option. I don't agree, and I don't think he believes that he does either. As an achievement, most music fans think becoming rich and famous is less admirable than creating worthwhile music, whether you are a rock/pop musician or any other kind of artist. Simmons knows this but obviously doesn't want to be judged in that way so argues that pop/rock is not capable of being judged by any other criterion than whether people "lay their money down". This is disingenuous rubbish. As for achieving your goals, that is an admirable thing only if your goals are admirable. No doubt Hitler felt that he had done many of the things he set out to do. I have no opinion on Simmon's music because I have never knowingly heard it. Having read a few interviews with him (including one in Bass Player) I do have an opinion on whether he is a pompous, self-regarding, misogynist bag of wind and this quotation did nothing to alter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guy Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 So here's my issue with Gene Simmons and the rest of the KISS crew - they are essentially corperate sellouts with mediocre musical ability and a lot of product. Its like the most mind boggling thing ever. They don't play particularily complicated or intricate music, in fact it is rather repetitive and standard. They are a bunch of freaks: seriously, the makup? how can you be taken seriously as a musician when you are covered in black and white makup? In many respects, KISS is not popular because of their music, they are popular because they are KISS. As a musician, I do not like KISS and have a hard time appreciating them. Looking at their ability to promot themselves and create a media buzz around themselves, they are incredible. It makes no sense to me, its not fair considering the amount of good, highly talented groups I have heard that never go anywhere, and this one group that is into rock and roll for chicks and cash, not for the music, make it huge. Its not fair. Please, understand my position. I play music for the music, that's the most important thing to me. If I never make a dime off it, if I never get any acclaim, that's ok, as long as I get to play music. But KISS made more than a dime, they got fame and fortune, and more than a few truckloads of chicks, and they don't really care about the music. It's not fair. So I'm whiney, get over it. Mark guitar + distortion + killer drummer + bind-boggling vocals + intestine reorganizing bass = heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by bc: As for achieving your goals, that is an admirable thing only if your goals are admirable.Exactly. I refuse to be impressed by someone who has shallow, self-centered goals and then proceeds to live up to them. It does show the ability to work hard; but the hard-working club is still a pretty big club. But it ain't a virtue. I also doubt, with bc, that this really represents his own feelings about it. At the end of the day, he does care about music. This is an attempt (a) to change the discussion to something that he looks better at, (b) in a way that reinforces his "screw everybody" image, which a lot of people sheepishly mistake for some sort of depth. It's also the opposite of real integrity. What he should've said was, "I'm an entertainer, really, more than a musician; so if you want to ask about my success, ask about entertainment, not music." Fair enough; we'll address your credibility as an entertainer. What he actually said was, "I'm a musician, but who cares about a musician's credibility as a musician?" The answer to that one is, "We do (that's why we run a music magazine), our readers do (that's why they buy our magazine), and evidently you do too." Despite all this, & although I haven't been a KISS fan since I was about 11 (that's a big demographic for them), I've always been able to dig what they do as a really wild approach to entertainment (which, incidentally, happens to involve music). And frankly, I've generally been able to dig what KISS music I've heard. I'd also love to go to a KISS show. It's cool. As long as it's honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Wow. Comparing Simmons to Hitler?? ROFL!!!! You speak as if there is only one universally-accepted set of 'admirable' goals. Simmon's goals are not MY goals, or yours. That does NOT make those goals somehow 'bad' goals. It just makes them different - especially since he's not killing 6 million Jews (among which some relatives of Simmons were apparently included). Now then, what exactly is an 'admirable' musical goal? To be hailed by critics? ELP, Yes, and many other folks who produced "musically worthwhile" product were almost universally panned by critics, by the same critics who loved the Sex Pistols and the Ramones. You cannot tell me the Sex Pistols and Ramones were musically more advanced than KISS. Therefore, being lauded by critics cannot possibly be worthwhile. Is the respect of your fellow musicians worthwhile? I think so, but you certainly can't make a living from that. How many thousands of skilled jazzers are playing dives for a meager 100 bucks (if that much)? How many violists & chellists & oboeists in local orchestras which are on the verge of extinction? I don't think Simmons is all that pompous. He's said "I'm one of the luckiest people on the planet" more than once. Is he misogynist? I haven't yet heard stories of him abusing women - he just sleeps with the ones who want to sleep with him. I fail to see how that equates to hating women. I don't get what you're saying, or where it's coming from. Originally posted by bc: As an achievement, most music fans think becoming rich and famous is less admirable than creating worthwhile music, whether you are a rock/pop musician or any other kind of artist. Simmons knows this but obviously doesn't want to be judged in that way so argues that pop/rock is not capable of being judged by any other criterion than whether people "lay their money down". This is disingenuous rubbish. As for achieving your goals, that is an admirable thing only if your goals are admirable. No doubt Hitler felt that he had done many of the things he set out to do. I have no opinion on Simmon's music because I have never knowingly heard it. Having read a few interviews with him (including one in Bass Player) I do have an opinion on whether he is a pompous, self-regarding, misogynist bag of wind and this quotation did nothing to alter it. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 1. I didn't compare Simmons to Hitler. I merely said that achieving your goals was an admirable thing only if your goals were admirable. I cited Hitler as an illustration of the principle that achieving what you set out to do was not necessarily in itself admirable. 2. You speak as if there is only one universally-accepted set of 'admirable' goals. No I don't. 3. Simmons was misogynist in the Bass Player interview when he said that women were unsuited to playing bass. There was a fair bit of controversy at the time. I know nothing of his sex life and would prefer to remain unenlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by dcr: Exactly. I refuse to be impressed by someone who has shallow, self-centered goals and then proceeds to live up to them.DCR, Why are you picking on me? I agree, I set a goal to wake up this morning. I did it. All praise me now. Simmons is a shock-jock. He says the obvious in a straightforward manner in order to seem like he knows what he's talking about. He has a confidence and swagger. Sounds like a politician to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 You guys still nattering on about this guy? Last I checked Jimmy Haslip was still alive. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 A few quotes related to the subject from the inimitable Frank Zappa: Modern music is people who can't think signing artists who can't write songs to make records for people who can't hear. Most rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by jeremyc: A few quotes related to the subject from the inimitable Frank Zappa: Most rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read FANTASTIC! That's a keeper. Guess I'm not the only one who gags at Rolling Stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Ahem... If I may... God Of Thunder Youve got something about you Youve got something I need Daughter of aphrodite Hear my words and take heed I was born on olympus To my father a son I was raised by the demons Trained to reign as the one God of thunder and rock n' roll The spell youre under Will slowly rob you of your virgin soul Im the lord of the wastelands A modern day man of steel I gather darkness to please me And I command you to kneel Before the God of thunder and rock n' roll The spell youre under Will slowly rob you of your virgin soul I am the lord of the wastelands A modern day man of steel I gather darkness to please me And I command thee to kneel Before the God of thunder and rock n' roll The spell youre under Will slowly rob you of your virgin soul I think this pretty much sums it up. Or maybe it doesn't. What was the question again? \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc_dup1 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Also often attributed to Zappa but in fact, as I understand it, by Elvis Costello: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I echo Mark's sentiments. If the music scene isn't about music, then what the hell is it about? Here's two guys (Gene and Paul) who got together and decided to do a big circus show (I've read all the interviews, I know what I'm talking about here - my brother was a RABID fan) They audition a couple of schleps (Ace and Peter) to join their act (I suspect carefully choosing people who wouldn't outshine them too much) and start writing these dorky, brain-numbingly droll songs about sex and alcohol, design their costumes, and go out and play shows. KISS was never about the music - only the image. Therefore, as a musician who already feels that the really talented musicians out there don't get the air-time they deserve (because the industry prefers to shove rehashed garbage down their throats via the radio, VH1, and MTV) I find KISS, Gene Simmons, his 3rd-grade-level philosophy, and the whole marketing machine behind him completely and utterly loathsome. Thank God in heaven that most of the shock-rockers that followed in their wake did not enjoy the same level of success (W.A.S.P., Marilyn Manson, GWAR, etc) or I would have probably shot myself by now. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 KISS just expanded on ideas that came before them. They took what someone like Alice Cooper was doing and expanded on it. There have been plenty of entertainers who have tried to follow the same path. Some of those guys have had success. Marilyn Manson comes to mind. All of it seems to appeal to a certain crowd or age group. When I was a young preteen KISS was a great way to get my parents muttering "it's just a phase" under their breath. I do really think that Gene really believes what he is saying here. I'm just not sure that I care. Here's to KISS's Re-re-re-re-reunion tour minus most of the members of the band due to lack of interest!! Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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