How can I get shaking lows without clipping?

[Mr. Phil]

I use a Carvin R600 (Biamped) driving Avatar 2x10 and 1x15. I play heavy metal, as most of you know.

 

I usually have a pretty good balance, and I get some earthshaking but, I get clipping to and it sounds bad.

 

So my question is: How can I set the amp so that I can make people go *POP* when I play my low stuff?

 

These are the settings I have the amp set at (from memory so its approximate)

I have the gain at about -9db (8 oclock-ish)

The blend is a little bit above "NORM"

 

Low boost - off "+8dB @ 90 Hz"

Mid cut - on "-10 dB @ 250 Hz or 500Hz"

High Boost - on "+6dB @ 4k Hz"

 

Parametric EQ:

Low - about 9

Mid - 12 (all the way)

Mid Frequency - about 300 Hz

High - 12

 

Graphic EQ - I have the first three or four faders on a gradual increase from about +4 up to +12. The rest are all at +12.

 

Compressor - On all the way, the COMP/LIMIT knob is almost all the way to LIMIT.

 

Noise Gate - Fully on

 

Biamp - Crossover set at about 200Hz (anything below 200Hz gets sent to the 1x15, everything else to the 2x10)

 

I have the Low Power amp control at about 6, the High at about 7.

Master volume is in between 3 and 4.5. Anything above that, and its just too loud. (I'm running about 250watts per cab)

 

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to be detailed.

 

I'm guessing the problem might either in the Biamp Crossover, the Gain, not enough low mids (even though they are already totally boosted), or That I should've gotten a 4x10 instead of a 2x10. or a 2x10 and a 4x10. I really like how the 2x10 sounds with everything above 200HZ going to it. Its very articulate.

[jeremy c]

Offhand I would say it's because of how you have your equalizers set...you have both the parametric and the graphic eq maxxed out.

 

You're better off cutting a frequency you don't like than boosting everything else....if you boost everything you are going to overdrive the preamp causing unwanted distortion.

[g.]

Not being there and not knowing how much your bass pushes the input stage I can't answer. But don't be clipping hard at that [pre]GAIN trim when you thump hard or it will sound crappy no matter what everything downstream from the input is doing in terms of gain. But let's also be honest: 175 or 250 watts (depends on the Avatar 15" impedance) into such a low cab is not going to sound like a true subwoofer no matter what you do.

 

I would suggest several things though:

 

Back off on compression ratio at least slightly and set the threshold lower. This will seem less fatiguing. Increased dynamics will also highlight the impact of punchier notes. Contrast, not mushy wallpaper.

 

Then consider your graphic EQ. When it is switched in you seem to be boosting at every band - some very drastically - instead of having a more even balance of cuts and boosts; that type of combination will have better signal-to-noise and headroom and won't be misaligning the phases of various frequencies - which basically just makes more mush to add to the mush.

 

Just move the whole works down - and then use the AMP 1 and AMP 2 knobs if you want more final gain in ALL the highs, or ALL the lows. Don't be throwing away headroom and distorting at every stage of the game as you go from input to final stages. The type of distortion that results is not the type that leads to pleasing results one usally describes when talking of overdrive or distortion for guitars.

 

Also, maybe back off on the parametric LOW setting. Again, let the AMP 1 (LOW FREQ) control determine how much signal the low side of the crossover is feeding in. Check those AMP 1 and AMP 2 peak lights to make sure they aren't flashing too damn often! And for final volume use the MASTER, after finding good balances elsewhere.

 

Only one bad thing about these flexible preamp/head designs with a lot of EQ possibilities: it is pretty easy to work against oneself and introduce all kinds of gain before you get to the final output stage, and it is possible to work against oneself by using various EQ sections in partial or full contradiction.

 

So start out with moderate settings and go from there. Maybe even go FLAT for a while with all EQ and just use AMP1 and AMP2 to get a lows to mids-and-highs balance, then try the PRE-SHAPE (voicing) switches or some mild EQ, going one bit at a time. At each change find out what the head is capable of dishing out to each cab when the master gets turned up some more.

 

Yep, work from there, and think about what each control is for and where it is at in the signal stream. Often with a good pair of cabs for bi-amping all anypone ever needs to touch is the high and low crossover outputs (in this case, labeled AMP 1 and AMP 2) to find the balance and volume that rocks the world the best.

 

edited for typo mayhem; omigawd!

[temporaryarmsglisten]

you might want to back off of the gain, unless youre bass has a really weak output. loweing the limiter could help too. but it seems like youre clipping because you boost so much with the eq. you might want to try an amp with more headroom, that could afford you the extra(clean power) you need for earthshaking lows.

[getz out]

Woah, cowboy... didn't you get chastised for excessive EQ previously?

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005869

[g.]

...And then there is excessive use of the noise gate, which I meant to get to, but forgot in the litany of abuses to be hail mary'd. Just what are you doing that needs that much gate? - running six fuzz boxes at the input?

 

I got to wonder sometimes if a lot of people think "I'll just turn every knob up about full because if some is good, more is better. And then, to look like what I know I'm doing I'll randomly select a few to turn down or off..." I know a couple of gutarists I've played with in the past year are that way, as well as some self-professed sound engineers who must think they are at the handle of a coal-driven beasty.

 

Guitarists don't seem to suffer as much for their ignorance, however (though others might wish to be relieved of the imposed misery).

[rockinredneck69]

Originally posted by greenboy:

[QB

 

I got to wonder sometimes if a lot of people think "I'll just turn every knob up about full because if some is good, more is better. And then, to look like what I know I'm doing I'll randomly select a few to turn down or off..."[/QB]

...for me, I turn all the knobs to the middle as I don't know if too much or too little is best!

[PJR]

The gate and compressor could be choking you of vital punch.

 

As mentioned......you are definately overusing everything.

 

Start over.....all the EQ's flat , compressor and gate off.

 

PJR

[Scoot]

phil6006: The numbers all go to twelve. Look, right across the board, twelve, twelve, twelve and -

Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?

phil6006: Exactly.

Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?

phil6006: Well, it's two louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your bass. Where can you go from there? Where?

Marty DiBergi: I don't know.

phil6006: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Marty DiBergi: Put it up to twelve.

phil6006: Twelve. Exactly. Two louder.

Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

phil6006: [Pause] These go to twelve.

[saxofunk]

Good scootdoggy, good.

 

Phill, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but here goes. Set all the sliders on the graphic EQ to zero, in the middle, where it probably clicks. That is the top (it doesn't look like it, but it really is). Now use the sliders to remove the frequencies that are too hot. Now, use the master volume knob to make up the difference (hopefully you do have some room left to turn it).

 

By having all the slider at +12, you aren't giving the amp any headroom.

 

I learned this with a cheapo car stereo EQ... 35 watts can thump in a Pontiac Sunbird.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Scootdog, thanks for playing. Madd skillz, baby, w/ the ST dialogue!

 

Getz76, a most appropriate archival reference in your offering to this thread.

 

Brutha Phil, listen to what the people are saying. They have written lots of great ways for you to solve your problem. Include that with what was written in the thread Maury linked us to, and you're good to go.

 

Let us know how things shakedown, mang.

 

Peace,

--sweet'n'low

[rumpelstiltskin.]

i should add that you could turn your crossover even lower -- try around 100Hz - 150Hz. then use your low amp (amp1) much more than your high amp (amp2). that should be fun, though like GB said, it's not enough power to really loosen the bowels.

 

robb.

[Scoot]

Originally posted by phil6006:

Mid cut - on "-10 dB @ 250 Hz or 500Hz"

In addition to everything else we're saying about overuse of eq, you might wanna rethink this setting too. 250-500Hz are the frequencies that are going to cut through the mix most, if you are totally sucking them out (although you are doing the opposite on the 9-band), then you're asking for a muddy sound.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Scootdog:

Originally posted by phil6006:

Mid cut - on "-10 dB @ 250 Hz or 500Hz"

In addition to everything else we're saying about overuse of eq, you might wanna rethink this setting too. 250-500Hz are the frequencies that are going to cut through the mix most, if you are totally sucking them out (although you are doing the opposite on the 9-band), then you're asking for a muddy sound.

And he's boosting the semi-parametric at 300Hz as well - so that's cut out the mids between 250&500Hz, then add some mids at 300Hz, and then add some more (and some more lows and highs)!

 

Alex

[getz out]

Run your rig full-range, not bi-amped. Both of your speaker cabinets are pretty much full range, take advantage of it.

 

SW - I love that thread.

[doc taz]

I use a W setting on my Peavey TNT 115 most of the time. Maybe later, I'll post something after I play around with Photoshop or the GIMP , but basically, my mids are boosted at least 1 dB. I never boost my lows more than 9 dB. The highs are never boosted more than 2 or 3 dB.

 

There's a tone shelving stage before the graphic EQ on my amp. I set the high knob flat, and the low knob at +3 or flat, depending on the venue. My preamp gain is set at 6. I use the low gain input jack on my amp.

 

From the BP200, I generally use either a "blank" patch with a slight volume boost, or two amp sims when doing rock or metal: the Ampeg sim, and the SWR Basic Black one. As I use this up front, I don't use the BP200's EQ. No cab modeling. Maybe a little delay or reverb.

 

Out of the bass, I move the bass knob UP about 3/4 of an inch from the flat setting, and the treble knob just a hair below the flat setting. If it's my passive P copy, then the tone is set around 8-10. As for volume, it's usually all the way up, though I might set it down a bit if I hear any clipping I don't want.

 

I don't have a 2x10 with its own power amp yet, so I use my MicroBass for the mids and highs. Yeah, it does clip a tiny bit, but it's actually not too bad. (I've had my MicroBass for about 15 years, so the speaker's really broken in. ) Some solid state amps actually sound good when clipped, though not all are designed to handle super heavy signals well. When I biamp, only the high end is clipping, but that's probably due to my using the MicroBass. There's a compression circuit on my 115, so I guess at high volumes, the clipping is eliminated or reduced.

[dcr]

Thanks, Maury. I wasn't going to say it. Oh, all right, yes I was, actually...you just beat me to it!

 

It's no different from mixing a PA board. If you want to emphasize a certain frequency, you actually get better results by cutting other things that fight with it for space. As Jeremy said, as more things get boosted, everything starts to overdrive. In addition to that, boosting your mids or highs, say, not only make those frequencies "hotter" in an absolute sense, but also in a relative sense--it makes them hotter than some other frequency. This means there are always tradeoffs & choices; if you want low-mids to stand out in your sound, you can't also boost your high mids. And so on.

 

It's like making a sandwich. Which do you want to stand out more, the peanut butter or the jelly? You don't have the option of making them BOTH stand out more! If you try, your sandwich will just get huge and, well, yucky. Tone's the same.

[jeremy c]

It's like making a sandwich. Which do you want to stand out more, the peanut butter or the jelly? You don't have the option of making them BOTH stand out more! If you try, your sandwich will just get huge and, well, yucky. Tone's the same.

Beautiful, DCR!

[ransom]

I also have an R600 I use it as a back up because I finally got my GK 1000rb back from GK. More on that after I gig with it.

Anyway try this link: http://www.carvin.com/manuals/R600-R1000-seriesIII.pdf , it should help you find out the perfect starting point. Like the others were saying, start from the beginning. Turn your master volume all the way down, set everything flat and turn the gate and compression off, then adjust the gain to where it only clips ocassionally when hit your loudest notes. Turn up the volume to stage volume, then start dialing in your desired tone, remember it's better to cut than to boost. You may have to adjust the gain to accomidate extreme frequencies. Use compression just enogh to take the edge off as not to damage speakers, although thats not likely with avatars. I would suggest running in full range also, as mentioned in a previous post,it will allow both cabs to push more bass and the head to push more watts. Hope that helps. FISH ON ! ! !

 

peace,

ransom

[getz out]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

It's like making a sandwich. Which do you want to stand out more, the peanut butter or the jelly? You don't have the option of making them BOTH stand out more! If you try, your sandwich will just get huge and, well, yucky. Tone's the same.

Beautiful, DCR!

Wow, I'll second that as well. Very nicely put.

 

Mmm... PB&J. Mmmm...

[rumpelstiltskin.]

my only dissent here is that the really thick, gooey pbj sandwiches are the best! i have learned the joy of a restrained, moderated pbj, but my true love in pbj is one with way too much pb and way too much j.

 

robb.

[...]

Originally posted by Scootdog:

phil6006: The numbers all go to twelve. Look, right across the board, twelve, twelve, twelve and -

Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?

phil6006: Exactly.

Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?

phil6006: Well, it's two louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your bass. Where can you go from there? Where?

Marty DiBergi: I don't know.

phil6006: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Marty DiBergi: Put it up to twelve.

phil6006: Twelve. Exactly. Two louder.

Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

phil6006: [Pause] These go to twelve.

 

Originally posted by dcr:

It's like making a sandwich. Which do you want to stand out more, the peanut butter or the jelly? You don't have the option of making them BOTH stand out more! If you try, your sandwich will just get huge and, well, yucky. Tone's the same.

That was just brilliant. I need to remember to use this in the future. I'll be sure to send you royalty checks.

[dcr]

Originally posted by robb.:

my only dissent here is that the really thick, gooey pbj sandwiches are the best! i have learned the joy of a restrained, moderated pbj, but my true love in pbj is one with way too much pb and way too much j.

 

robb.

 

I guess some PBJs really do go to 12!

[Mr. Phil]

I don't really like the Full Range mode. Bi-amping is sweet.

 

I'm gonna try to out tomorrow when I have practice.

 

Question though:

 

What exactly does the Compressor and Noise Gate do, and what does COMP and LIMIT mean?

[Mr. Phil]

Originally posted by getz76:

Woah, cowboy... didn't you get chastised for excessive EQ previously?

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005869

I guess that thread got bumped down before I could look at the rest. lol.

 

i forgot about that thread.

[Mr. Phil]

Originally posted by robb.:

i should add that you could turn your crossover even lower -- try around 100Hz - 150Hz. then use your low amp (amp1) much more than your high amp (amp2). that should be fun, though like GB said, it's not enough power to really loosen the bowels.

 

robb.

Well the crossover is only labled to 200 Hz, but the knob seems to go a little past that, I'm guessing that it wouldnt really make a difference

[g.]

200 Hz (within electronic +/- tolerances) is as low as it goes.

[g.]

And regardless of manufacturer freq response claims, most bass cabs do NOT function well as true subwoofers, having neither the low fre power handling or ture response curves that are desire, and most rigs are not set up with enough clean power and headroom to do subwoofer stuff the way it needs to be done.

 

Sadly most equipment manufacturers really haven't got optimum biamping strategies for combinations of their heads, preamps, amps, cabs. They may supply crossovers, but they aren't that matched to the power they supply, or they don't go low enough, or their slope is not steep enough, or their cabs are unsuitable. This, I think, is why biamping is not as popular as it could be for bass rigs, though its priniples are essential for SR work.

 

Nevertheless, better use of the rest of the controls can leverage what power is there to better advantage than you've gotten so far. Just don't expect a 200-300 watts allow the same contouring that many more watts will. And as a couple people note, full range use is an option.

[jeremy c]

Question though:

 

What exactly does the Compressor and Noise Gate do, and what does COMP and LIMIT mean?

Whoa, Nelly, You don't know what these do and you've got them turned all the up?

 

Memorize everything on this webpage and you\'ll know!

[g.]

Could

r e a d

t h e

* * * * i n g

manual, too.

 

One reason one of the three R is emphasised in skool, I thinck.

 

And don't confuse controls for chunky-style and smooth, that'll just get you in a jam.