Brendan Orr Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 I just came back from an early-morning performance that left me, a little unsatisfied. The room I was playing in is actually a lobby for a performance hall (we were the entertainment for the pre-event breakfast). Anyway, this rooms acoustics are pretty crazy, add to that all of the surfaces are concrete. What occurred from the really reflective surfaces was a lot of phase cancellation and loss of definition (from the entire gamut of the frequency spectrum). I was wondering, what is the best way you deal from these type of playing environments (medium-large rooms like gyms to small hear-the-conversation-on-the-other-side rooms). I pretty much cut most of my lows, left mids a little low, and cranked highs a smidgeon. groove, v. Inflected Form(s): grooved; groov·ing transitive senses:1a.to make a groove in;1b.to join by a groove;2.to perfect by repeated practice;3.to throw (a pitch) in the groove intransitive senses:1.to become joined or fitted by a groove;2.to form a groove;3.to enjoy oneself intensely;4.to interact harmoniously - groov·er noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLoy Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 A smidgeon??? That's way too much. I'd crank the highs only as much as a skoesh... Seriously, yes...bad rooms suck. I pretty much resort to the same thing you do...cut the frequencies that are bouncing around out of control and hope that people's brains fill in the missing frequencies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fig Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 One hall I played at had an almost equal volume kickback from the far wall. Raised stage in which the sound went over the audiences heads. So, during the songs, sometimes I found myself following the drum from the 'delayed' reflection. Needless to say, it sucked when I got offtrack. Had to watch the drummers kick pedal to know when the rythym was happening. That gig blew. So, is this part of 'paying ones dues'? I feel for ya, man. Bassplayers aren't paid to play fast, they're paid to listen fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Orr Posted April 19, 2003 Author Share Posted April 19, 2003 yeah, and that's not all, this gig was with my latin percussion ensemble (~12 members), trying to carry over 4 marimbas (2 of which are 5 octaves that reach well into my register) plus misc. latin percussion (the claves carry well in any situation). The next performance we have is going to be outside between three concrete building (they are spaced about 80 feet apart, so it won't be to bad). This whole thing reminds me that I need to sign up for the Acoustics course next year. groove, v. Inflected Form(s): grooved; groov·ing transitive senses:1a.to make a groove in;1b.to join by a groove;2.to perfect by repeated practice;3.to throw (a pitch) in the groove intransitive senses:1.to become joined or fitted by a groove;2.to form a groove;3.to enjoy oneself intensely;4.to interact harmoniously - groov·er noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humabass Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 I'm a real minimalist when it comes to EQ but there are some rooms where you have to take drastic action such as you described. Definitely makes a strong case for always going through the PA and using your rig as a monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 I've done the same kind of thing myself, and while conducting small string orchestras and coaching string quartets. It can be very horrible...I've had so many bad experiences. Here's my main idea about this: Play "acoustic." Don't get the idea you have to fill the space with sound. Think small, soft sounds. Remember, in this situation your audience is talking, visiting, thinking about the main event. Some few will appreciate you, many more will appreciate you if you don't play over their voices. It can be a difficult balance to acheive, since you don't get a real sense of the room where you are playing from. However, if you turn down and get tight internally, it will be heard enough all over the room, and you'll attract serious listeners over to your bandstand. Now, if you could just convince the rest of the band of this truth! "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fig Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Damn davebrownbass, I liked the way you put that. You are....the Master! Set it up to play internally, as if you're playing for each other in the band, and it would be enough to kick out to the rest of the room at a very decent volume. Why didn't you say that when I was talking with my errant loud guitarist? Damn it, Beavis... Bassplayers aren't paid to play fast, they're paid to listen fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Orr Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Rember, this is a latin ensemble, nothing but percussionists. The hand percussion section usually is the loudest when we rehearse with the mallet being the softest, but in the performance, the opposite was true. Also in this instance I think the focus was supposed to be my ensemble not the food (it was for my college's "Day of Percussion" where other colleges would come and show off their percussion students). But yeah, other than me, it was all acoustic. Playing acoustic probably wouldn't have worked because the 4 marimba+vibes all add to each other plus the other percussion is generally pretty loud. Plus, in the exitement of things, people tend to get loud and rush the tempo. groove, v. Inflected Form(s): grooved; groov·ing transitive senses:1a.to make a groove in;1b.to join by a groove;2.to perfect by repeated practice;3.to throw (a pitch) in the groove intransitive senses:1.to become joined or fitted by a groove;2.to form a groove;3.to enjoy oneself intensely;4.to interact harmoniously - groov·er noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 When said "play acoustic" what I meant was that you should all play as soft as if you were just playing in a living room for yourself. I'm a bit concerned about the "getting excited" implying "getting loud" and "rushing." That's not a good sign, generally speaking, for a collegiate ensemble. I like loud music a lot. One time I played a symphony concert with 5 Japanese drums (cost $20K apiece!) It was plenty loud, visceral, palpable. I loved it. And, I'd love your band as loud as you wanted to play...in the appropriate venue! You mentioned outdoors...that'd be perfect! But in this environment, if you want to sound good, ya gotta play soft. You simply don't have the acoustic environment to do anything else with quality. Featured group or not, that's how you deal with this problem... I think you'll be much happier outside...able to play at the proper volume for your ensemble. "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Orr Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Sorry, I tend to exaggerate. By rushing it is usually pretty negligible (+-5 bpm, though dynamics sometimes can get out of hand (like you said, is not good for a college-level ensemble). The music performance majors typically do a pretty good job with all aspects. groove, v. Inflected Form(s): grooved; groov·ing transitive senses:1a.to make a groove in;1b.to join by a groove;2.to perfect by repeated practice;3.to throw (a pitch) in the groove intransitive senses:1.to become joined or fitted by a groove;2.to form a groove;3.to enjoy oneself intensely;4.to interact harmoniously - groov·er noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchlstrt Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 The Immutable Laws of Accoustic & Musical Science (oversimplified) are such that in a space like this as your Volume rises above a (pretty darned low) optimal level it will sound worse & you will tend to play worse. It's not a smooth rise either, it gets worser & worser faster & faster. Some 'trendy' Bars & Restaurants use this high surface-reflectivity 'trick' to make it seem like there's a lot going on when they're not very full. A few more folks & it gets louder, people talk louder, & it very quickly goes to the point where people (literally) have to yell right in each other's ear to be heard. These situations are excellent opportunities to display your more subtle, sensitive side as a Player, trot out every slower Tempo piece you even think you know, & find out just how much a group can thin out an arrangement before it just dries up & blows away. And get some of that 'dues paying' out of the way. This really is a tough situation, so don't let it get you down at all. For the outdoors playing-across-from-buildings Gig be ready for some of the 'slap-back' effect mentioned above. A trick I heard: Rock band playing outdoors across from a three story concrete Dairy Barn. After a couple of painful songs the Drummer started smacking the Snare & adusting the Tempo to put the slap back on SOME Musical subdivision of the Beat, then count four & go. My friend said it did make things a lot un-badder, & they got a weird rythmic thing going on one Song that they actually kept for sections, so a little bit of Silver Lining for that Gig. strt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Orr Posted April 24, 2003 Author Share Posted April 24, 2003 Just got back from my outside performance, I must say I was expecting some reverberation, but it was totally dead instead. It went pretty well, except I had to detune my E string down to D at the end of one song and forgot to retune it back to E, so I had to transpose everything on my E string up a whole step until I could find a opening where I could quickly tune it up. Other than that I went pretty well Thanks for all your help/suggestions groove, v. Inflected Form(s): grooved; groov·ing transitive senses:1a.to make a groove in;1b.to join by a groove;2.to perfect by repeated practice;3.to throw (a pitch) in the groove intransitive senses:1.to become joined or fitted by a groove;2.to form a groove;3.to enjoy oneself intensely;4.to interact harmoniously - groov·er noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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