way2fat Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Bump www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJ Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 What an awesome thread, ive learnt so much from this. Can the mods make this a sticky as there's o much valuable information here, it would be a waste to see it slide out of exisitence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 They can't do sticky threads on this site. But you can give it a bump when it gets near the bottom of the page. This thread is definetly the shazizzle. Thats pretty good for those of you who don't have high school kids to translate from the Ebonic. www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I'm going to paste what I put in another thread here: -------- Dr William L Fowler's books (wrote theory columns for Downbeat and Keyboard among others) still available: http://www.fowlerbrothers.com/bill/book_cat.asp Check out his biography too: evidently he was one of the people responsible for the first piezo pickups. -------- This guy's regular column in downbeat not only gave me a handle of theory in general, and for specific instruments (and styles), but also showed me a hell of a lot about composing and orchestrating. And hey - he raised some sons that did just fine with Frank Zappa and Dave Brubeck... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Bump www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 bump Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 may I bump this time oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahuna855 Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ive got something to add! a Chromatic Scale is every note (as far as i understand) "I'm thinkin' we should let bump answer this one... Prepare to don Nomex!" -social critic "When I install my cannons, I'm totally going to blast their asses back to the 16th century; Black Beard style" -bumpcity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Originally posted by BigKahuna855: ive got something to add! a Chromatic Scale is every note (as far as i understand)Not exactly, it might be true for the western equal tamperement (hoping I've spelled correct)music but here we have other notes between those half steps. Just to add an information I may say in turkish folk and turkish classical art music (as it is called in my country) there are 9 notes inside a one step (A to B or F to G) interval of the equal tamperement system. So in addition to the flat sign and sharp signs we have others. Maybe one day I may post some information about "our" system and "our" way of using scales if I can find a good source in english. I should say that although I tend to like mainly the western music and harmony, there is a lot to taste in those "smaller" intervals. However it is very difficult to harmonize this kind of music (in fact many of those songs include only octaves for different instruments no chords etc.) oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahuna855 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 thats pretty cool titrek. i think im going to study that some more on my own time, its rather interesting sounding. "I'm thinkin' we should let bump answer this one... Prepare to don Nomex!" -social critic "When I install my cannons, I'm totally going to blast their asses back to the 16th century; Black Beard style" -bumpcity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Having found (hopefully) some good information I will try to translate it to English. / "koma" as used in turkish music is equivalent to the one/ fifty third (1/53) of one octave. (however some theory books claim that the "turkish koma" is the same as the pythagorian "koma"). The full step (e.g. A B) which is equivalent to 9.006 komas in the "arel [i dont know the exact word in english]" melody system which is based on the pythagorian tuning system is accepted as 9 komas in the turkish system. The Half step of 3.985 is rounded 4 in the turkish system. In this way the octave is rounded to 53 komas. / Thus in some of our "authentic" [is this the right word]we have 7 frets between A B (a whole step) To name one our fretted instruments the "Tanbur" has a very long and narrow neck and really lots of frets. besides we have fretless instruments as you may know one of them the "ud" which is very similar to western instrument lute but having no frets. Hope I was knowing some more theory of our turkish classical music which may be interseting for those playing solo on fretless instruments. As I said before it is very difficult to harmonize over this system (our traditional music contains fifths played together at most, no usual way of chords etc.) so playing fretted instruments over this music is burying some of the music or playing at least two dissonants a bar. (which I do occasionally). One day I may bring up some of our scales but now to name one Take the dorian scale (let us take the famous one D Dorian) it is D E F G A B C D We have a turkish folk music "makam" (very similar to scale but not the exact replica) as Re Hüseyni (D Hüseyni in your notation) D E F G A Bb2 C D in which Bb2 is 2/3 "koma"s below the original B. In order to play songs of this scale, I have three options (I previously played chords on classical guitar on it or play bass on it) Omit B altogether. (if this can be done it is the best way I think, at least you dont play notes having an interval less than a minor second) Play Bb or B instead of Bb2, choose the one which sounds the best. (it is a disaster if Bb2 and this note coincides e.g. you are playing with an instrument having komas usually it is baglama) Play the dorian the way you play the melodic minor (B ascending Bb descending but C remains as it is) Too long I should stop. Maybe one day I may take some course on the theory of these. oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahuna855 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 hey titek, any idea where i can get a book or something on this style of music? it really sounds like it would be fun to learn. "I'm thinkin' we should let bump answer this one... Prepare to don Nomex!" -social critic "When I install my cannons, I'm totally going to blast their asses back to the 16th century; Black Beard style" -bumpcity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I will compile a set of links but I am no good at the turkish classical or folk music theory. But I will provide some links here soon. I have just a little experience of playing turkish folk music but as I have access to only fretted basses, I didnt dig all the possibilities. I will also try to find examples of this. Here is the first link I will provide. An introductory article on the topic. http://www.kairarecords.com/oudpage/theory.htm I will post several other links soon. informative and as far as I know not misleading. Also you will find names of some books. oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 hi, its me again. now with a little bit more comprehensive collection of links. But you should copy paste them to the adress bar as I dont know how the give the links as people give so it goes Homepage of the previous link, I think it would help a lot http://www.kairarecords.com/oudpage/Oud.htm Again a good web page on Oud (an instrument very similar to lute) also there is a good compilation of links in links page of the site http://website.lineone.net/~david.parfitt/theory.html again a good article on makams http://www.turath.org/ProfilesMenu.htm Some important books on Arab and Turkish music. http://www.arab-music.com/biblio_e.html arabic and turkish music theory http://www.brianprunka.com/oud/maqam.htm title speaks of itself, scales that you hardly ever see. http://www.hinesmusic.com/What_Are_Makams.html another good site http://www.musiq.com/makam/index.html and a very huge page, lots of info if you have the time. Not only about arabic and turkish music but also a lot more info. http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/M151/logan_M151_MOW.html good luck. (if I found any good samples I will write links here for you) oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahuna855 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 thank you "I'm thinkin' we should let bump answer this one... Prepare to don Nomex!" -social critic "When I install my cannons, I'm totally going to blast their asses back to the 16th century; Black Beard style" -bumpcity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Bump. Question: If one is playing walking quarter notes and using chord tones, which tones does one leave out on extended chords?, e.g. if you have one measure of C13 which tones get left out? www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 A C13, huh? I would play the root, 3, 5 & 13. I'd leave a 7 out of that one. Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 When you are walking, there is no rule that says you have to play all the chord tones. It doesn't matter which ones you "leave out". Your job is to spell out the harmony in some fashion and connect one measure to the next (and create a pleasing line). A 13 chord is from the 7 chord family and there is no need to play anything different on a 13 chord than what you would have played on a 7 chord. The chord instrument should be playing the 7th and the 13th. If they leave out the 7th, then they are merely playing a 6 chord. But the bass player doesn't have to worry about this. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titrek Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Originally posted by jeremyc: Your job is to spell out the harmony in some fashion and connect one measure to the next (and create a pleasing line). I like this definition. oops my signature dropped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 5stringsucka- here's those free lessons I was telling you about, they will help you but they are not for posers. Time to cowboy up and fight through that plateau. Good Luck, Enjoy! www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I'm missing the part about the 13th being from the 7 chord family. Not the 6 chord family? (13-7=6?). What extended chords would a 7th not work with? www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 Answers to a few questions: The 13th note is the obviously the same note as the 6th note, but for it to be a 13 chord, the 7th must be there as well. C7 = 1 3 5 b7 = C E G Bb C6 = 1 3 5 6 = C E G A C13 = 1 3 5 b7 9 13 = C E G Bb (D) A the 9th or D is not necessary the 11th or F is never played. The chord is usually voiced on guitar or piano b7 10 13 If there altered extensions, your seventh chord riffs might not work. And if the chord is an 11, don't play the 3rd. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Does it matter which octave the A is in? i.e., is C E G A Bb the same chord as C E G Bb A where the second A is an octave higher than he first? www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 It doesn't really matter what octave the notes are, but in the chord voicing the A is going to sound a little better when it is a seventh higher than the Bb rather than a half step below. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2fat Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Aha! www.ethertonswitch.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SplitNick Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I beleive from a straight classical chord definition a thirteen chord in five voices would be missing the 3rd and 5th (1,b7,9,13)...For six voices I think you just leave out the 3rd (1,5,b7,9,13)...An approach that an instructor gave me is to think of 11 and 13 chords as over under chords...Think about a four voice G11 (G,F,A,C with the B and D missing) This is the same as a Fmaj/G...For a five voice G13 (G,F,A,C,E again B and D missing) This could be construed as a Fmaj7/G...You could also change things up a bit...Take a four voice G b11 chord (G,F,A,Cb with B and D missing, Cb and B are the same but it depends which chord they belong to) This could be a F b5/G...And so on and so on... PLease correct me if I have made any mistakes here...I know there are some wise folks floating around these hills... We must accept the consequences of being ourselves-Sojourn of Arjuna Music at www.moporoco.com/nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Warning: Highly technical discussion of chords and chord voicings below. Originally posted by SplitNick: I beleive from a straight classical chord definition a thirteen chord in five voices would be missing the 3rd and 5th (1,b7,9,13)...When I studied straight classical music, the 13th note was thought of as an "unresolved appogiatura", not as a real chord tone. The fifth note is raised a step to the 6th. ..For six voices I think you just leave out the 3rd (1,5,b7,9,13)Your voicings in the above examples are correct for classical, but not for jazz. In a jazz voicing, you shouldn't be leaving out the 3rd, that's a crucial note for recognizing a chord. The first note you leave out is the 5th, not the 3rd. A jazz voicing (and rock players using these chords are generally using "jazz" voicings) should have the 3. the 7, and the extension as minimum requirement. That's why I said earlier that the chord instrument usually plays b7 10 13 on a dominant 13th chord. The bass player is supplying the missing 1 and 5. Usually jazz players, both guitarists and pianists, are thinking in four note voicings, especially guitarists. It's pretty hard to play 6 different notes on the guitar and it would fill too much space if it were possible. ...An approach that an instructor gave me is to think of 11 and 13 chords as over under chords.This is one way to think about chords and many charts are written with what you call over/under chords and I call slash chords...to help people who don't know what the extensions mean get the right result. ..Think about a four voice G11 (G,F,A,C with the B and D missing) This is the same as a Fmaj/G.. Actually it should be Dm7/G to get the same effective notes as a G11: 1 5 b7 9 11. You're never supposed to play a 3rd on an 11th chord. As you said, F/G omits the 5 as well. If you played C, D and F over the G bass note, you'd be playing enough notes to hear the chord just fine. Notice I am leaving out the 3 (because of the 11), the 5 and the 9. Four notes: root, and three chord notes. For a five voice G13 (G,F,A,C,E again B and D missing) This could be construed as a Fmaj7/G I disagree, there shouldn't be an 11 in a 13th chord. Fmaj7/G actually gives you a G13sus4 ..You could also change things up a bit...Take a four voice G b11 chord (G,F,A,Cb with B and D missing, Cb and B are the same but it depends which chord they belong to) This could be a F b5/G.Sorry but there is no such thing as a b11 chord. The b11 is the 3rd. The chord you just described is a G9 (omit the 3 and 5). ..And so on and so on...You bet! I like the thoughts you have brought to the table....keep on pursuing those ideas! I look forward to hearing some of the music you write. For anyone else still reading, we have been talking about the notes that the chord instruments play, not the notes the bass player plays. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Brown Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 There is always some confusion here. F/G can mean a compound chord GBD/FAC. These notes can be revoiced for a more interesting sound, and certain voices can be left out to avoid undesired dissonance (the B and C) or altered in some way (make the C a C# for the #11 chord). It is often better to write the chord in proper form with extensions, i.e. G7#11. However, in some cases (most cases?) the slash designation can refer only to the bass note. Yesterday, for example, I was teaching a student to explore by writing his own chart. He chose "Tears in Heaven." I analyzed the opening as (for bass purposes only:) A E/G# F#m A/E D/F# E(sus)-E A In this case, the slashes refer to the bass notes ONLY, making chords "inverted." E/G# is an E triad with the G# in the bass. Yep. I'm the other voice in the head of davebrownbass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Oh no, another Dave Brown! Welcome to the forum! In all the published sheet music, charts, and fake books that I have seen, the slash chord designation means chord/bass note. The only time I have seen chord/chord is in some Chick Corea charts and it's pretty clear what he means because it looks like Ema7/Dma7. Your experience may be different than mine. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Malone Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by jeremyc: Oh no, another Dave Brown!Jeremy, I believe this is the same Dave Brown. He is from Arlington and is also a high school orchestra director. Wally I have basses to play, places to be and good music to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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