Anatomy of a Fanbase

[zujo]

So i saw this cover band on Friday who has built an incredible fanbase in a short period of time.(when I saw them back last november'02 they were playing to crickets)

 

And I am wondering what's the secret to this? They are the average cover band.Believe me nothing new under the sun.

 

Is it posible to come up with some kind of strategy?

 

I know in my band we pass out flyers and give our e-mail address & everything but our results have been somewhat dissapointing,

 

How do you spot that quality person that is going to follow your band around consistently?

[Cup]

Zujo wait til CMDN picks up this thread, he seems to know loads on this. The one point I'll make is....

 

"How do you spot that quality person who'll follow your band consistently?"

 

I think the onus is on the band to BE the "quality" and make people want to go to every show. Saying that as you've said they're a bog standard covers band, maybe they do have a marketing genius working for them.

 

CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven

[Tom Capasso]

I agree that CMDN is our resident expert on this.

 

I think giving your info isn't enough. You have to get everyone in the crowd's email and email them about your activities and shows. Sell/give swag with your name on it.

 

Cup is right, I think. You have to be that band that people want to be around. There's more to it than music....

 

Tom

[fig]

Just my two cents on what I've seen with this band I'm working with.

 

I got hired by them about 8 months ago, and only started recently playing out again (one of our guitarists had foot surgery). What I see in this band, as we are picking up a decent following, is an incredible female singer, showmanship (nothing choreographed, just a spontaneous feel for what the crowd would like), and the ability for us to schmooze with the crowd during breaks.

 

As my girlfriend says, our singer does Mellissa Etheridge better than Mellissa, so her vocals are a real plus for us, and she is a show person, a performer, and gets the audience involved from the first set. One of the guitarists is wireless and wanders out into the crowd while playing, which people seems to enjoy. And during breaks, we're usually talking with whoever wants our attention to just BS or sign some CD's.

 

These are just points that came to mind that applies to this band I'm with. I believe likability is a major factor in developing a following. Are you friendly to the crowd during breaks, or skulk off to sit alone (I used to do that). Can you or your band make it feel personal between you and the audience? The musicianship is a factor, too, but if I see a band, no matter how good they are, doing covers, and this band has no personality or showmanship, then I could've sat at home and listened to the tunes they were covering and get the same effect.

 

These are what attract me to local bands when I'm being a customer. Great attitude, friendliness, etc. I feel fortunate to be working with this band. We do have fun on the gigs.

 

We do about 85 percent covers, 15 percent original. I don't think that's a factor, but the presentation of it is probably what will make a difference.

 

Now where's my Cocoa Puffs!.......

[The Bear Jew]

hahahahahahahahahahaha!

I'm an "expert!"

YAY.

 

DISCLAIMER:

OK... I guess I could write a fucking dissertation on this topic. Don't read on unless you REALLY want to know what I think about this subject.

 

What's the secret to drawing a crowd?

There's really no secret, but there are a few things you can do.

 

THE HONEST WAY:

 

Rehearse

Bust your ass to be the best act you possibly can be. Play as hard as you can, all the time. Perform as if your life depends on it. Be entertaining, but respect yourself and your artistic vision. Above all, don't suck.

 

Refine

Have a solid schtick (stage show) and image. Create a cohesive, coherent look and make it work. For example, if you're folky Irish band playing drinking music, you might have the whole band keep pints of beer on mic-stand holders and announce things like, "It's now time to get fucking blotto, ya bastards!" every couple of songs while raising your pints. Maybe dress the band like soccer hooligans... Having a Celtic backdrop would work, too. Little details like these don't seem like much to us (because we just wanna play!), and audiences might not really know what they're seeing when you have this stuff, but it helps create an overall vibe around the band. Don't discount this stuff. Something as simple as a cool light show can bring people back for multiple shows.

 

Material

Cover bands should pick notoriously popular material and NAIL it with total precision all the time while downing pitchers of beer and doing body shots off of audience members' anatomies. Have tight transitions between songs. Be a professional.

 

Original acts can skip the popular material thing, but should expect to have a far smaller fan base. That's just life as an original music act. You shoud still be as pro as possible, have clean tranisitions and be able to nail everything you play with total precision.

 

The Game

Network and schmooze constantly with anyone and everyone you meet. Invite them to shows. Contact everyone consistently and respectfully(via e-mail, telephone and snail mail) to get them to shows. Be friendly to everyone. Tell everyone about your band, but don't be obnoxious. Make every show an event... never disrespect your audience by playing half-assedly. Similarly, don't wear out your audience by expecting them to come to a show in the same place every single night. Spread it out. Play different places.

 

THE DISHONEST WAY

 

Get one (1) of each to join your band:

A coke dealer

A scenester character

An incredibly good-looking person (of either sex)

A member of the local press or entertainment media

 

If you can get all of the members of your band to be at least one of these things, you'll never have to worry about drawing a crowd of sweaty, sniffly suck-ups who want to please you and will never miss a show. You will never, ever have to worry about writing decent songs or playing well as long as you meet these criteria.

 

The reality is, it is extremely hard to cultivate a large fanbase who will truly follow your band everywhere. Almost every band I know does a combination of the honest/dishonest stuff in order to draw a regular crowd. Very few are completely honest, and only a few are completely dishonest. I really wish more bands were more on the honest side.

 

Above and beyond these elements... there is something somewhat intangible about some bands that attracts people. I call it the "X" factor. When you see bands with this element in place, your hair stands on end, and you know there's something special about the band. Maybe it's a vibe that the band puts out, maybe it's confidence, maybe it's something else, but you know it when you feel it. These are the bands that eventually become stars. I've seen it happen personally... only about 4 bands in 40 have it.

 

How do you spot that quality person that is going to follow your band around consistently?

 

You don't spot these people -- they spot you. You can help them become supporters by being friendly and approaching people who look like they might be interested in pursuing your band a little more. You know what they look like -- the guy who watches intently as you break down your rig, the guy who offers to buy you a beer after your set, the woman who stands near your side of the stage during your set, etc. Encourage them -- be NICE! Hang out. Talk to them even if you don't really feel like it. This isn't always easy... but you need to do this. It's been called "kibitzing" or "schmoozing" or "pressing the flesh" or whatever, but what it really amounts to is hanging out, being nice and being witty from time to time. Silly as it sounds, this is probably the most valuable skill to develop in the music industry.

 

For the record, my band tries to keep on the honest side as much as possible, but I will admit that we have a few supporters who follow us around because they think one (or more) of us is a "hottie." We don't, however, have any drug dealers or local celebrities in the band.

 

I could go on and on.... But I'll stop now.

[Scoot]

(Sorry, this isn't as well written as the above, but I'm runnin low on time here)

 

Yeah, see above. I think one of the biggest factors in the many points above is the "Be Nice to your audience." Remember that you are doing what every single person in the audience has wanted to do before - to be in a rock band. And because you have the "prestige" to be in a rock band - (did I just say that? stop laughing, you know what I mean dammit!) - people will expect you to be somewhat arrogant. Being "cool" to the audience will make them want to come see you every time you play for (at least) a couple of reasons a) your band is entertaining, and b) you're their friends and people like having "cool" friends.

 

Schmoozing w/ the females has benefits other than the obvious also. If you attract a lot of women to your gigs, guys pick up on this and will come hang out at gigs to watch the girls.

 

Apart from that, another thing that I would stress is to START A MAILING LIST ! Don't make it difficult for a drunk person to fill out either - an email address is all you need (name optional.) And don't merely ask people to sign up for it, put little sign-up sheets w/ pencils at each table before gigs. The few times we did this we had about 80 people sign up each time (instead of the usual 5-10.)

 

Play with as many different bands and as many different locations also. This way you can "steal" their fans in an honest way - by simply being a better band.

 

many other ways that I'm sure others will post . . .

[Cup]

Now I know where my band is going wrong! We know local music people, 4 out of five of us dress well, we play good music (IMO), we play passionately!

 

We're just missing out on the mailing list, the coke dealer and the flesh pressing. I'm crap with the computer so I'll delegate the mailing to a guitarist. I'm too paranoid as it is, so the drummer can carry the coke. The other 2 have girlfriends (and I wouldn't want to have failed relationships on my hands) O.k, O.k...I'll do it!

 

CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven

[The Fonz]

CMDN is the king of promotion. i will add this: flyering doesn't work. flyering only works after you've had a 45 minute conversation with someone. a flyer is only good as a reminder to someone who was planning to go in the first place. flyers placed in bars will be thrown out by the bar backs and busboys who do so the instant they hit any surface under the orders of a bar owner who doesn't want competition for his place. flyers left anywhere else will wind up with phone numbers written on the back, and as soon as that number is plugged into someones cell phone/palm pilot/little black book the flyer is in the trash.

 

schmooooooooooooooooooooze. the only people who go to see you at first are your friends. and even they don't always go.

[MattC]

Posting flyers doesn't work, but use them anyway: give them out to people you meet. Make sure that they have the bands' names, your web site, show time, place, etc. This way you can talk to someone and just give them a flyer.

 

Every band I've met that's popular locally has had one thing in common- they were cool people. These sucessful people were dynamic, charismatic, and just fun to be around. I think that this is part of the X factor described earlier.

 

It always helps to have a band member or two who has a lot of good friends, especially the type of friends that like to go out and have a good time.

 

Luck- the most important factor.

[Scoot]

tip #19 - The Pass List: If you have an alloted number of people to place on a "pass list" use it wisely! Rotate some passes to the loyal fans to keep them loyal, but a free pass is often the best way to get somebody new to come out and see you.

[...]

To add to the already good advice:

 

ALWAYS look like you are having a good time, even if your life sucks ass, your dog just ran off with your wife, your pickup truck exploded, and the bar you're playing at sucks huge ass.

 

The point: People LOVE to watch other people have a good time. The audience eats that stuff up and they will want to come back and see you again.

[The Bear Jew]

More crap from me on this subject:

 

The Web

Spend a buck and buy your own web domain: www.xbandx.com -- make it easy to remember. It doesn't have to be comlex or fancy -- even a simple one will do. Make sure all your upcoming shows are listed, along with a basic bio. Keep it updated. Just an idea... MP3.com offers free websites, and you can list your shows and band info. You can upload photos. Obviously, you can also put up your music there as well.

 

Contact

Mailing lists are important. Send a regular e-mail update to the folks who sign up, and always plug your website in the e-mail.

 

Promote, Promote, Promote

Go to other bands' shows (bands who sound somewhat similar to yours) and hand out promo stuff to the people there. Stickers are good... make sure your website address is on the stickers!! Maybe hand out some free promo cds with your upcoming dates inserted in the case (or better, on the CD label)? This works in your favor in SO many ways... you're "out" and being seen in the music community, so more people will know your face. Folks who already know you will see you "supporting the scene, MAN," and that's a good thing. Flyers are a necessary evil... yes, people throw them away or write phone numbers on them, but it's another piece of paper with your band's name on it... how can that be bad for you? Make different kinds of flyers... BIG ones for the walls of the club (Kinko's offers 24"x36" prints!!) and small ones to hand out or put on the bars (3.5"x4.75" works great for this -- you can fit four on an 8.5"x11" page!!).

 

Merchandise

Spend a buck and make some band t-shirts to sell or give away at shows. Make shirts for both men and women... What better promotion is there than people walking around with your band's name on their chest? You might consider giving away free shirts to regular supporters or especially helpful folks... or just give free shirts to the really hot girls... whatever. Create an area to sell this stuff at your shows -- a booth or a little table works great. Make a display for your stuff. Put your t-shirts, mailing list and stickers here... if you have a CD, sell it here. It also helps to have some kind of "different" lighting on your display as well. Sit at your booth or table and schmooze with anyone who drops by your table to see what you have... You might make a sale AND create a bond with a long-term supporter. Keeping all of your merchandise and mailing list stuff in one place at shows makes you look like you've got your shit together. Also, people seem to respect your mailing list and merchandise more if it's attended by a band member or roadie. You won't find your mailing list stuff scattered all over the place this way.

 

Beyond this....

 

I know I said "Be Nice" a shitload of times in my last post, but it's really, really important, especially if you look like me and sound like my band. Because we're all big, mean-looking guys who play loud, aggressive music, it's extra important to be VERY nice to the people who are at clubs. Regular folks being what they are (i.e. most people are NOT big and mean-looking) they'll generally assume you really ARE mean, especially if your band is aggressive at all. Shit, "regular" people tend to think musicians are kind of weird anyway, mean-looking or not... In spite of this, you would not believe how many folks have told me how "nice" and "sweet" I am in spite of my appearance. That's because I devote time to "being nice," which really just amounts to behaving politely, smiling, listening to people talk about themselves and nodding occaisionally. It's hard to believe, but this kind of behavior from everyone in my band usually ensures that we see the same faces at every show in every town we hit... and they bring their friends to hear us and "meet those nice Cottonmouth D.N. boys." This is the power of the "schmooze."

[-Fatman-]

Would keeping an interesting look be important? I mean, a punk band should probably look like a punk band, and a metal band should look like a metal band and so on. What if the bands schtick is political agitprop? What if they spent some time in between sets talking to the audience about the evils of capitalism, the imperialist nature of the United States, and the troubles with neoliberal globalism? And kept a consistent "guerrilla" appearance to complement this. Like flag clothing, military surplus, all kinds of imagery that evokes emotion like pictures of flags and bombs and guns. And just in general had a glossy cool look about them that made people want to be seen at the shows.

[Scoot]

No, we were talking about building a fanbase, not a revolution. Wait a minute . . . when I was 16 I was ready to campaign for Zack De La Rocha as a Socialist dictator of the US. Maybe you have a good point after all.

[-Fatman-]

Rage against the Machine support anarchism. Not authoritarian forms of socialism. Just check out the reading lists on the website. Noam Chomsky, Bakunin, Berkman, Zinn, as well as the better works of other forms of socialist like Marx and Lenin and so on.

 

But political agitprop would be part of the POINT of any band I would particpate in. What better venue for propaganda is there than music?

[The Bear Jew]

Would keeping an interesting look be important? I mean, a punk band should probably look like a punk band, and a metal band should look like a metal band and so on. What if the bands schtick is political agitprop? What if they spent some time in between sets talking to the audience about the evils of capitalism, the imperialist nature of the United States, and the troubles with neoliberal globalism? And kept a consistent "guerrilla" appearance to complement this. Like flag clothing, military surplus, all kinds of imagery that evokes emotion like pictures of flags and bombs and guns. And just in general had a glossy cool look about them that made people want to be seen at the shows.

This really depends on your goals. For example, a very good friend of mine is the "main guy" in a VERY political/queer positive hardcore band. They're popular on an international scale -- their last record was listed in the top ten faves of several very well-respected punk magazines, and they've toured the U.S. and Europe rather extensively. They're fully independent. They run their own label, set up indie distribution chains to independent stores, book their own tours, etc. My buddy does something similar to what you're discussing -- he takes a few minutes between songs to talk about stuff like government propaganda, race baiting, discrimination, etc, before moving on to the next song. When it comes to image, however, the band basically looks like a bunch of punk/hardcore kids. When it comes to these kinds of bands, a lot of the image stuff goes out the window. Why? Because a great deal of emphasis in that scene is put on "realness," legitimacy and honesty. Having an overly stylized look would be a detriment to a band like this because much of their music is intended as an affront to hyper-stylized, image-oriented industries like the big music conglomerates. Most of the folks who frequent this environment would laugh heartily at any act that tried to maintain an image of any sort. Of course, very few artists in this scene find it profitable, either. Most are in it with the goal of spreading their message and self-expression.

 

Granted, RATM managed to combine a definite image with a political message, but, in more underground circles, the band was often reviled and villified for using political terminology and imagery for capitalistic intentions. Simply put, many folks seem to think they talked the talk in order to get paid.

[zujo]

Excellent comments all - I am taking notes - No Doubt!

 

The only thing I disagree with so far is the "you have to have extreme musicianship as a main factor" comment.

 

I think you have to play good and more than anything be at the right place at the righ time.

 

Sometimes the worst bands have all the local following.I was in a long time ago band were I felt everytime we played we sounded worse, but their people kept showing up to evry gig and telling the guys how much they liked each one....

[The Bear Jew]

Sometimes the worst bands have all the local following. I was in a long time ago band were I felt every time we played we sounded worse, but their people kept showing up to every gig and telling the guys how much they liked each one....

Yeah... you don't have to be good to be popular. It helps, though. As I mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved in drawing a crowd. You probably had some of them happening, or you wouldn't have had any following at all. Also, please remember that we are always our own worst critics. You probably had something happening that you couldn't see but appealed to the people you knew.

 

Usually, if a band isn't particularly good but has a strong, loyal following, things don't last for very long unless they can manage to take things up to the next level rather quickly -- touring, scoring good management, signing some sort of deal, etc. Bands who aren't very good but draw well have a relatively short shelf-life of popularity. They have a bunch of well-attended gigs, and then they start seeing a decline in attendance unless they draw new people to shows or constantly do something new and interesting to keep people coming back. The music biz is part of the entertainment industry, and if you ain't a good musician, you need to be a good entertainer in some way to keep people interested.

 

So, no, you don't have to be an extremely talented musician (or even a relatively good one) in order to draw a crowd. Mainly, you have to do something that entertains, fascinates, revolts or otherwise engages your audience in order to keep and grow your crowd. If you're can write/play the songs these people want to hear in a passionat way and in a somewhat visually appealing manner, you're more likely to be able to entertain an audience without having to do a lot of set-dressing. If you ain't so good, you may need more of this stuff (image)... if you're good AND you have a solid image and "schtick," you'll have even less of a problem drawing and keeping a crowd.

 

Hope all this helps and makes sense to some degree.

[jeremy c]

The most popular band I was ever in had a lesbian lead singer/guitarist....but she was in the closet and no one knew.....except lots of young girls who idolized her and followed the band around all the time....the singer and the girls were what would now be called lipstick lesbians...because of the large numbers of good-looking young girls (who loved dancing to the band) there were always lots of guys who came to the gigs too....you may not want to try this if you don't live in a city like San Francisco where this kind of thing is not so unusual....the girls threw lots of parties for the band....but we won't talk about the things that happened at the parties....

[Cup]

Ahh Fatman, what a joy! You remind me of a younger version of myself (tho' you appear to be better read ) Watch your champagne in take tho', keep that little finger in when you drink

 

The Revolution will not be televised! The dictatorship of the proletariat WILL

 

CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven

[-Fatman-]

What the fuck does that mean, Cup? What the fuck are you talking about? If that was meant as some sort of subtle cut at me, eat my shit. If not, then use clearer language.

 

Simply put, many folks seem to think they talked the talk in order to get paid.

And many others realise what really happened. The members of the band realised that if you are going to spread a political message, you probably want to sprea it as far as possible to as large an audience as possible. You can't do this easily through underground DIY means. The easiest way to do it is through huge corporate labels and with MTV and other stuff like that. Plus, you get heavy funding this way, which can be used to feed the fucking homeless, or build shelters, or pay for bussing of demonstrators to events. In a pinch, it could even be used to buy guns for the Zapatistas or the revolutionary anarchist groups in Argentina.

 

Also, I don't mean a stylized appearance like what that goofy bitch Avril Lavigne is doing. I mean a stage appearance that is obviously a stage appearance. Costumes. Shock tactics. Like the stage appearance of Corporate Avenger. People kinda get off on that shit. I don't know why, but it kindles the flames of rebellious emotions. So you have emotionally charged music, with emotionally charged political lyrics, complemented by a stage show that is aimed at causing emotional reactions. That will probably make for a hella crazy muthafucken show. With lots of moshing and yelling, a maybe even a riot or two. Which starts the whole cycle over again, because this causes more publicity and helps get the bands name out there and spread the political message simulataneously. Its a win win, if you ask me. Sure there will be those uber elitists who will claim its all for money or something, but who care what a handful of arty fucks think?

[jeremy c]

Relax, Fatman, it sounded like a compliment to me!

 

What most uninvolved observers of the scene would like to see is: If a political band becomes nationally famous and money starts coming in, the political ideals of the band remain constant and the money is used for their causes, not their personal enrichment.

 

I don't know anything about the details of RATM's career so I am absolutely not implying anything about them, it's just a general comment. Since we seemed to be on the subject of political bands.

[Cup]

FatMan, I think you've took my comments as a hit on your seemingly socialist leanings. This is by no means true. I was applauding your ideals. A few years ago I studied Sociology and I came away from this with distinct leftie ideas. I am a little bit older now (the grand old age of 26) and my ideals have took a beating, I now have a credit card, considerable bank loan and many other trappings of capitalist life that I swore I would never have!

 

My ideals are half intact, so here in Ireland/Britain I would be looked down upon by a true Socialist as a "champagne socialist".These haracters are portrayed in British satircal papers, sketches etc as drinking champagne with their pinky fingers out whilst talking with great gusto about the "revolution". If anything I was having a laugh at myself, definitely not you!

 

Maybe I should dig out my old notes on Engels, Marx, Illich etc and relight old fires.

 

I hopr this has cleared up the misunderstanding. P.S Just for the record, I don't intend to eat anyone's shit. Tho' maybe due to my failed ideals I'm eating it already.

 

Peace, welcome to the forums and don't let the bastards grind you down!

 

CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven

[-Fatman-]

Well, there are those who take hypocrisy to the extreme, but we do live in a capitalistic society. Becoming a socialist or anarchist or communist or whatever won't change that. In order to live, you must conform to society's rules, at least in action. You can't just pretend that you dont have to eat, that shelter and clothing are free, or that education is cheap to come by.

 

Why do you lean toward Marxist ideas? Me, not so much. I'm not enthusiastic about the prospect of a socialist economy controlled by some ridiculous "dictatorship of the proletariat" or in practice, a simple dictatorship. The state will not "whither away," it must be ripped apart and stamped into dust. Alternative forms of organisation must replace those of hierarchical states.

[groovyjazzyfunky]

Wow.

[Cup]

Fatman I see you have obviously gave this subject a lot of thought, probably more than I have. I have some leanings toward true Socialism but I don't intend to view them on a bass players forum, wether or not reformation or revolution is the answer is without doubt beyond my own little musings (I keep these for boring the [even] less informed members of my social circle at drunken parties).

 

I do agree that all dictaorships (whatever guise, proletariat etc) are wrong. If you wish to PM me I will expand on my shaky views, but as mentioned before this is a bass forum and many members dilike off topic dicussions taking up bass space.

 

CupMcMali...this monkey's gone to heaven

[The Bear Jew]

Er... yeah... Fatman...

It's cool. All I wanted to mention was that RATM is often perceived by folks in the more extreme political music scene as a band who took on the trappings of activism as fashion, not substance. My point is that you can sometimes miss your mark in that arena by having an overly packaged look, so you have to be careful not to look too slick or you'll run this risk of appearing opportunistic.

 

I'm definitely NOT condemning RATM or praising them for their politics or image. I'm only making a statement in order to give some perspective on the whole "image" issue. The Clash was another band that was big on political-looking images and statements, but, when questioned, they didn't really have much of a really developed political stance. The guys from RATM (most of them, anyway) knew their causes and were articulate about them.

 

No offense meant. I don't like discussing politics in these forums... it's way too confusing and time-consuming. Plus, as a few folks mentioned, there is some resistance to off topic (non-musical) discussions here. As CupMcmali said, I'd be happy to elaborate through private messages if you're interested.

[-Fatman-]

Yeah. Ok. Blah. Blah blah.

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

Fatman,

Lighten up. You have this huge chip on your shoulder, just daring anyone to knock it off. You act as if every comment made toward you is an assault on you, when, in many of the cases, it was a compliment.

 

It's perfectly fine to have these opinions and it's highly encouraged. You need to rethink your presentation, though. If you keep telling people to "eat my shit" and spewing profanity like the kid in "The Exorcist," no one will take you seriously and any validity you may have had went right out the window. People can only sift through so much garbage to digest your point, it becomes a nuisance and no one listens to you and you end up typing just to see yourself type. Personally, I feel thatif you dislike the system so much and know how to fix it, then, get off this message board and get your ass int he White House and start making these changes you think will make this country such a better place. A second option is, if you hate the country so much and all that it does for you, then leave and never come back. If democracy and capitalism are so bad, why have they worked so well for so many years? I don't want some lazy slob feeding off my hard work. I don't want to work to support my family, your family and that family down the street. I can get off my computer long enough to work and earn a living and provide for my family rather than sit in front of a computer screen whining and crying about how bad I think the country is and how much I think it needs changing on some message board about bass. You want a political band, by all means, do it. No one here will stop you. In fact, we'll be more than happy to encourage you and offer you our knowledge and wisdom that comes from working WITH others rather than against.

Lay off the caffiene and get some sleep and read something with a happy ending and then go play your bass, start a band and live your life how you want to live it. Just stop walking around like everyone hates you and your message. Ever hear the old addage "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar?"

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but, I saw something on another thread and had to poke my head in to see what all the fuss was about and throw my hat in.