cabinets that reproduce accurate low B fundamental?

[TomD]

Greetings.

 

Haven't been lucky with the search engine today. I was looking for bass amps and cabs on the web and I've noticed that hardly any have frequency response (lets say -3dB point) down to 30Hz. Even the SWR Goliath 4x10s and 6x10s only are rated down to 40Hz and 55Hz respectively. And they still weigh a ton! Am I missing something here? Or is the fundamental really not that important? About the only thing I've seen is the Acoustic Image Contra that has the extended frequency range. So why don't we see more rockers using them - too clean? I think I'm really missing the key concepts of bass frequency amplification... Looking for some opinions... Thanks!

[Mudbass]

http://www.acmebass.com/

[KikkyMonk]

acme low b-2 (I think b-2)

 

+/-3 dB 41Hz to 22 kHz -6 dB at 31 Hz

 

but you need LOTS of power

 

go here www.acmebass.com

 

Ive only heard good things about em

 

Dave

[fig]

I figured cabs down to 30hz would be plentiful. I'm surprised your search isn't coming up with too much.

 

I went to the Peavey website and checked the cabinet I use (410 TXF, 4 ohm) which is not made anymore, but the spec sheet is still available. It rates from 30 hz to 15 khz. They do have a newer version, 410 TVX, 4 and 8 ohm available, which goes down to 30hz, too. My 5 string punches out great from this cab.

 

However, if they're like mine, they do weigh a ton, and I'm getting too old for this:)

 

Good luck in your quest. Now where's my roadie.....?

[KikkyMonk]

Mudbass beat me to it

 

http://www.musicgearnetwork.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002302

 

this is a previous thread...

 

Damn! I've never looked at the site till today... I think I'm going to get me a B-2!!!

 

Dave

[fig]

WOW, is there an echo in here?!?!

 

Sorry about the double post.....too jittery from coffee or sumthin'.....maybe just too damn many drugs as a youth.

 

But remember....

When in danger, when in doubt,

Run in circles, scream and shout!

[jeremy c]

I wouldn't worry about it.

Nobody can hear 30 hz anyway.

 

most of what you hear is the first overtone which is about 61.

 

Just listen to cabinets and see what you like.

 

As I said in another thread, the BagEnd ELF system is supposed to be flat down to 6, yes six, hertz.

 

I tried it out at NAMM one year with a detuned B string. Everyone was complaining about how loud it was but it didn't register on the dB meters of the sound police.

 

I use a SWR 2x10 and don't have any trouble producing nice low B's and C's. Maybe the speakers aren't producing a flat response all the way down there, it certainly doesn't bother me for the 4 low C's and the one low B that I will play on a four hour gig.

 

Some nice cabinets out there that I've tried are the Accugroove El Whappo. And then of course there always is the Glockenklang.

[TomD]

Thanks everybody for the informative replys! Based on your suggestions I've spent some time at the Acme, Peavey, Accugroove and Glockenklang websites. The info at the Acme site helped clear up some of my questions - thanks Mudbass. The previous thread reference helped as well - especially the post comparing Eden cabs vs Acme when used with different band instrumentation. For bands with lots of distorted guitars a high fi cabinet might not cut as well. I play P&W - don't usually see many marshall half stacks - so I'm with KibbyMonk - that B-2 looks sweet - and I guess 50lb isn't that bad. Fig, I don't know about roadies, I think a hand truck is as close as I'll get. Hey Jeremy, that BagEnd website is a hoot - let's see 4x21" and only 310lbs! 3200W, 104dB SPL - using the equation from the Acme site... that's 139dB SPL @ 45Hz What does that translate to on the Richter scale? Wild... Thanks again, everybody.

 

dogger

[g.]

I've posted the formula on Acme's site for figuring SPL at full power a few times.

 

I don't own an Acme because I do end up in bands where you need throaty mids to carve some space under and where the guitars are and PA support is not always to be had. The efficiency at mid freq versus the power handling just hasn't made them practical for that, for me. But of all the more affordable bass cab companies their specs are probably the closest to reflecting reality. That's a diplomatic way of saying the others have bent reality ; }

 

Start running a signal generator through these things or model their drivers in software (or look at the graphs and specs for the drivers) and you quickly begin to wonder if magic is at work. I've immersed myself of and on ever since I got involved in Sound Reinforcement (where the specs are qualified by industry standards and way more open for review), and I can only say the bass cab manufacturers feel compelled to compete against other similarly skewed, "creative" numbers ; }

 

As J says, it's a lot more important that you have 61.8 Hz (30.9x2) in good quantities for a low B string as (1)plucked strings exhibit more content at the octave overtone, and (2) most pickups seem to roll off down there. In that respect most bass cab manufacturers have at least a few products in their line that serve well. Some of them aren't so smooth down there though, so string balance and some boominess become issues. Actually it DOES help to have a lower TRUE -3dB point because there is SOME content of the fundamental present in a plucked/struck string, and also, having capacity down there insures smoother response anywhere on the bass's neck and often says something about the cab's ability to reproduce these notes without farting ; }

 

The other spec that really makes me laugh is the efficiency specs some tout. 104 dB 1w/1m? Yeah, right - that big PEAK between 1 and 2 KHz. That's great if you are a guitarist or like your bass shrill. But if you play BASS and not skinny-string guitar and desire actual BASS content, more meaningful figures would be derived at sub-100 Hz, 250 Hz, etc. This does not mean the cabs with such efficiency numbers do not work well for bass, but it does mean the manufacturer hopes you just look at that number and then contact their dealers without actually understanding what it all means (or doesn't mean).

 

Look around on Eminence's site sometime and look at their graphs for various models and read their efficiency figures at given frequencies (posted the URL for that area a couple weeks ago); that will give you more of an idea what the real world is like...

[TomD]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I've posted the formula on Acme's site for figuring SPL at full power a few times.

 

Sorry If I've missed it... I'm not the most attentive pup - I actually asked someone what the difference between a G&L L2000 and L2500 was today on another thread - this was after I looked at the G&L website

 

Originally posted by greenboy:

I don't own an Acme because I do end up in bands where you need throaty mids to carve some space under and where the guitars are and PA support is not always to be had. The efficiency at mid freq versus the power handling just hasn't made them practical for that, for me.

 

Good food for thought.

 

Originally posted by greenboy:

But of all the more affordable bass cab companies their specs are probably the closest to reflecting reality. That's a diplomatic way of saying the others have bent reality ; }

 

Start running a signal generator through these things or model their drivers in software (or look at the graphs and specs for the drivers) and you quickly begin to wonder if magic is at work. I've immersed myself of and on ever since I got involved in Sound Reinforcement (where the specs are qualified by industry standards and way more open for review), and I can only say the bass cab manufacturers feel compelled to compete against other similarly skewed, "creative" numbers ; }

 

As J says, it's a lot more important that you have 61.8 Hz (30.9x2) in good quantities for a low B string as (1)plucked strings exhibit more content at the octave overtone, and (2) most pickups seem to roll off down there. In that respect most bass cab manufacturers have at least a few products in their line that serve well.

Yes, this is what I was wondering about. Thanks.

 

Originally posted by greenboy:

Some of them aren't so smooth down there though, so string balance and some boominess become issues. Actually it DOES help to have a lower TRUE -3dB point because there is SOME content of the fundamental present in a plucked/struck string, and also, having capacity down there insures smoother response anywhere on the bass's neck and often says something about the cab's ability to reproduce these notes without farting ; }

 

The other spec that really makes me laugh is the efficiency specs some tout. 104 dB 1w/1m? Yeah, right - that big PEAK between 1 and 2 KHz. That's great if you are a guitarist or like your bass shrill. But if you play BASS and not skinny-string guitar and desire actual BASS content, more meaningful figures would be derived at sub-100 Hz, 250 Hz, etc. This does not mean the cabs with such efficiency numbers do not work well for bass, but it does mean the manufacturer hopes you just look at that number and then contact their dealers without actually understanding what it all means (or doesn't mean).

 

Look around on Eminence's site sometime and look at their graphs for various models and read their efficiency figures at given frequencies (posted the URL for that area a couple weeks ago); that will give you more of an idea what the real world is like...

Cheers!

dogger

[KikkyMonk]

104 dB 1w/1m

 

Greenboy, can you explain what this means?

 

i understand it to be 1 watt at 1 meter would be 104 db? but at what freq?

 

Dave

[rumpelstiltskin.]

exactly.

 

usually a frequency isn't given (at least for instrument cabs), but it's a critical part of the equation.

 

that was part of greenboy's diatribe, that a 104dB sensitivity is not nearly as useful at 1kHz as it is a 100Hz or whatever.

 

robb.

[KikkyMonk]

oooooooohhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

Dave

[abaguer]

Euphonic Audio. VL 210 or CxL112

[where02190]

In order to actually "hear" that low B fundamental, you'd need to be about 60 feet from yoru cabinet, as it takes that long fo rthe waveform to fully develop.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[RobT]

I love my Acme!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[g.]

where02190: In order to actually "hear" that low B fundamental, you'd need to be about 60 feet from yoru cabinet, as it takes that long fo rthe waveform to fully develop.

If that were true, anybody using near-field monitors would need to have a monitoring position 14.1 feet away from each monitor to accurately mix at 80 Hz, which is certainly within the response of even modest nearfields. 60 Hz would require a listening position of 18.83 feet.

 

Clearly this is not the case. One can hear a wavelength anywhere ALONG the wavelength - not just at its end, or multiples of it - or evn reflections of it (which with higher energy long wavelengths is not such an issue as they tend to pass through things that shorter wavelenghts would reflect off of).

 

That too brings up a rather absurd scenario: What would happen if one was calibrating or testing using a sine generator and they were not in the exact listening position for the particular frequency being output? Would they cease to hear the sine wave until they moved?

 

Clearly that too is not the case. Perhaps you have been confused by room modes and standing waves, whcih can make hot spots and dead spots within a listening area.

[jeremy c]

Just to be the devil's advocate one more time,

 

In the old days when I played out of an 18" folded horn cabinet, you could hardly hear it on stage and at the back of the room it was deafening. What's that all about, Alfie?

 

And when I am in the studio in the control room, if I sit at the back of the room, there is a lot more bottom there then if I sit up front where the engineer sits. (He's got JBL monitors up top and a subwoofer on the floor under the board).

[g.]

Jeremy,

 

A good devil's advocate you are : }  I'm not going to get into any math or diagrams here, but the case of a direct radiator cab is quite different than any horn or quasi horn design as concerns low frequencies. The direct radiator at low frequencies acts like an omnidirectional source (bass waves of sufficent energy tend to travel through surfaces, and the speaker is of course making vibration on either side of the cone).

 

The horn designs for bass act just like horns for tweeters but on a larger scale. There are tweeter horns that are short throw (wide-dispersion patterns), ones that are tighter patterned and may be called mid-throw, and ones that are tighter yet and are called long-throw. Similarly, bass horns in their quest for efficiency also focus the output energy and project it outward; out front where the dispersion "cone" has developed to larger dimensions the sound at all frequencies it carries will be louder. The shorter wavelengths "escape" the pattern quicker, of course.

[g.]

Second issue:

 

And when I am in the studio in the control room, if I sit at the back of the room, there is a lot more bottom there then if I sit up front where the engineer sits. (He's got JBL monitors up top and a subwoofer on the floor under the board).

 

Before I go deeper into this I might add that the bass may be louder there but this does not necessarily mean the longer wavelengths / lower frequencies are absent elsewhere. The issue of amplitude is not the same as the one of balanced freq response...

 

I mentioned standing waves earlier. These are products of room dimensions (each dimension is linked to a resonant freq) and are only eliminated to any great degree at lower freqs by good understanding, planning, expense and some experimentation for the fine-tuning stage since not everything is yet easily quantifiable and measureable. In a room with really good bass traps that soak at various freqs, there will be less bass amplitude variation from one listening postition to another, instead the amplitude will closer follow the distance inverse square law.

 

This factor is part of the reason near-field monitors are favored for critical mixing. In the properly set up near-field there is less reflective and diffusive/absorptive interaction with the surfaces found in the room (more an issue for mids and highs), so typically the ear is getting a more accurate balanced representation of all the freqs the monitor is capable of reproducing. But most near fields do not go down far into the lowest freqs, so it has become a more common practice in recent years to have a subwoofer that may only be used for playback when clients are listening or when trying to get an idea of the lowest part of the mix. This is not so different than using "mid-field" monitors (often referred to as the Loud monitors) that do have more low freq ability.

 

So if you are not hearing only the near-fields used for critical mixing, you are hearing the client mix, really, and it sounds as if the control room has areas that bass builds up in.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Is there a decent website that gives info about the freq for different notes and their overtones? Or, given the fundamental frequency for a note, is there a formula for calculating the overtones?

 

Just curious.

 

Peace.

[g.]

I'm sure serach engine would find some info. I've got a chart from ages ago for all the fundamentals across the piano.

 

Here's an easy case: once you know one you can derive the octaves by multiplying or dividing by two. A440 an octave down is 220 Hz, another octave 110 Hz, and the A string on bass guitar is 55 Hz.

 

To get the overtones you simply multiply the fundamental freq by any interger, so the first overtone of A55 is 55 * 2 = 110 Hz, which you will notice is an octave up. the second overtone is 55 * 3 = 165 Hz, third overtone is 55 * 4 = 220 Hz (another A, now two octaves above the fundamental), etc.

 

The most prominent (most amplitude/energy) overtone for the bass guitar (or any plucked string instrument is typically the first one, an octave up, and the fundamental is next in loudness.

 

The study of the overtone series is mathematical in nature, and also outlines the pure tuning scales and chromatics. But the even temperament which is the basis for most Western modern music, and which was developed to allow greater modulations / changes possibilities, actually divided the octave up into 12 step that in practice divide the octave up into 12 equal steps.

 

I know way too much about all the implications, the history and so forth of this to allow myself to keep typing ; } ...M u s t . . . s t o p . . . n o w . . .

[Tom Capasso]

Hey GB,

 

I can't say I have a use for all that info at the moment.

 

But I enjoy reading it (usually I understand it), I enjoy the science side of our art, and I like that at least part of our universe is orderly.

 

thank you

 

Tom

[TomD]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Second issue:

 

And when I am in the studio in the control room, if I sit at the back of the room, there is a lot more bottom there then if I sit up front where the engineer sits. (He's got JBL monitors up top and a subwoofer on the floor under the board).

 

Before I go deeper into this I might add that the bass may be louder there but this does not necessarily mean the longer wavelengths / lower frequencies are absent elsewhere. The issue of amplitude is not the same as the one of balanced freq response...

 

I mentioned standing waves earlier. These are products of room dimensions (each dimension is linked to a resonant freq) and are only eliminated to any great degree at lower freqs by good understanding, planning, expense and some experimentation for the fine-tuning stage since not everything is yet easily quantifiable and measureable. In a room with really good bass traps that soak at various freqs, there will be less bass amplitude variation from one listening postition to another, instead the amplitude will closer follow the distance inverse square law.

 

This factor is part of the reason near-field monitors are favored for critical mixing. In the properly set up near-field there is less reflective and diffusive/absorptive interaction with the surfaces found in the room (more an issue for mids and highs), so typically the ear is getting a more accurate balanced representation of all the freqs the monitor is capable of reproducing. But most near fields do not go down far into the lowest freqs, so it has become a more common practice in recent years to have a subwoofer that may only be used for playback when clients are listening or when trying to get an idea of the lowest part of the mix. This is not so different than using "mid-field" monitors (often referred to as the Loud monitors) that do have more low freq ability.

 

So if you are not hearing only the near-fields used for critical mixing, you are hearing the client mix, really, and it sounds as if the control room has areas that bass builds up in.

Ohhh. That's the purpose of near field monitors. Cool. Thanks for the info. The church I used to play bass in had a huge sanctuary and the sound guy had his hands full any time I played anything lower than an E on my 5. It almost had me thinking of switching back to guitar... Nah. So maybe the room needed bass traps or something? Very interesting.

 

BTW, fwiw that BagEnd 4x21 cabinet was spec'd at 104dB SPL @ 45Hz. It has a great name... Bassault-R!

[TomD]

Sorry,

That spec didn't make sense without the power reference.

 

Sensitivity:

104 dB SPL @ 45 Hz (1W @ 1m)

 

Power Handling:

3200 W continuous program

 

[bikertrash]

What I like about Acme....

 

1. They say they're flat, they are. Period. I've run them on a mucho expensive spectrum analizer.

+/- 3bd's flat 41hz.to 22Khz. 6 db's down at 31hz in free air (outside)

 

2. Learning how to get "No excuses, pro tone" without cabinet voicing allows you get that tone into a studio board or sound reinforcement board without angst and tears. Studio engineers will love you, FOH engineers will love you. That translates into phones ringing and money being made.

 

3.There is nothing to hide behind and nothing in your way. The instrument sounds like the instrument. The articulation of notes and playing technique comes flying out of the cabinet for all the world to hear.

 

If you have a great sounding bass, it WILL sound better. If you have great technique, it WILL be heard. You can do a big glissando and actually hear the strings tapping against the frets as your finger crosses them. If you dig in too hard and the string clacks against the fret, not only will you hear it, they'll hear it in the parking lot across the street.

 

4.As with all studio quality gear, the good gets better but the bad gets WAY worse. If you can't hear what you're doing wrong, you can't fix it.

 

I studied classical guitar, where technique and execution are king, for a lot of years and thought I had it down but...I've learned more about coming accross on tape or live from my Acme Cabs than anything else I can think of in the last twenty years.

 

5. Many manufactrures will take what you already have and make it sound better, Acme will take what you have and make it sound worse untill YOU become better. It's like taking your teacher to a gig. They miss nothing. If you nail it, you get the "atta boy". If you fudge it, you get spanked...hard.

 

6. They're a "learning experience". Technique, execution, real world tone...They tell the truth.

 

But I digress...Acme Cabs are the only one I know of that are truly "transparent","flat", and "accurate" down low.

[g.]

bikertrash,

 

I think I already praised Acme for not being the spec whores most of them are. And they are revealing - unless someone EQs out all the bad stuff rather than working on getting rid of it with hands on srings instead of knobs ; }

 

Basically what you described is the philosophy of STUDIO MONITORS (not the ones clients hear the mix through - the ones that critical mixing actually takes place on). They reveal what is there. If something needs to be changed one can hear what needs to be changed. No lies, no flattery, no fake goosing.

 

And that kind of philosophy extends to the Golden Ears thang too. If someone always hears things through systems that are more accurate they have a chance at building a more discerning ear. If they listen to crap, they won't easily develop much in the Golden Ears department.

 

Acmes are not the only cabs that are nice in this way in the bass world. But they are definitely one of them. Accugroove seems to be following the philosophy, Euphonics Audio, Ampeg did with the Extreme series, etc.

 

A corallary of that philosophy that I've practiced for a few years: if you have a cab that is flatter than most and you want to sound like you are playing through old school cabs or with the scooped sound that some still call modern, LEARN TO TRULY USE THE EAR AND THE EQ!

 

The better cabs reveal lots about preamps and EQ sections too. If one has the ears to hear.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Where's Whappo? I thought he might have some valuable input for this thread...

 

GB, thanks for the info on frequencies and fundamentals and overtones. Some of the stuff about temperment was covered by DBB (or maybe it was Bob G.?) in a past thread, with some interesting links -- so I'm also gonna try to dig that up.

[g.]

SW, I don't know that I'd want to see an actual manufacturer / rep step into this too hard. Too much temptation ; }

 

I was thinking of putting up the math to figuring out the freqs for even temperament, and the basis for all this in pure tunings that predates its use. But it gets kind of gnarly and probably one person in 1000 would care to understand it.

 

But if you are interested there is plenty of good info in print, and maybe on the web. One thing is certain: 3000 years ago, before there were measuring and test instruments of assured ultra fine calibration, people in several cultures were researching the overtone series and tunings/temperament, and some of the math is amazing! And they were bumping paradoxes and dealing with experiments that derived numbers that even today cannot be represented with total exactitude.

 

Actually, people like Pythagoras were instrumental in the sciences either dirctly, or through influence. These were true giants!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Here's the link we got a while ago from either DBB or Bob G. -- The Mathematics of Tuning and Temperament .