Is there racism in the music industry

[davebrownbass]

Of course, the answer would be "yes." there is all kinds of prejudice in all kinds of ways in all parts of life.

 

But more specifically, what about Michael Jackson's allegations?

 

Let's look at the main parties: Jackson, who has a particulary dim personal history, allegations of pedophilia, working his pocketbook off to (evidently) "look white"....but he has been one of the most significant forces in pop music today, taking his edgy, dancey, essentially message-less music to the world and the world bought it.

 

Then Tommy Mottola, who, as president of Sony, gets a talented young girl singer who sounds black and turns her into both Mariah Carey and his wife (that is "devilish" Michael) instead of letting her grow up and become mentally well.

 

Michael, who's biggest racial statement so far is "Ebony and Ivory" ("get together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano keyboard, oh Lord, why can't we.") sung with Paul McCartney, and then later bought his catalog.

 

Oh, the irony.

 

Anyway...the music industry has, in spite of it's history, been a way for lots of talented people of all ethnicities to put their message before the public.

 

So, a 2 sided question: Is the industry racist; and have you ever personally been effected by it?

[_Sweet Willie_]

Well, DBB, you've peaked my interest -- "racism in the music industry" -- where to begin?

 

First of all, how do we want to look at racism? Racism is more than prejudice. I tend to define something as racist if it perpetuates or exacerbates the racial inequality that exists in our country -- whether intended to or not. (Check out a book by David Wellman, "Portraits of White Racism" for more about racism, prejudice, and inequality.) Although there have been great opportunities through music for blacks, latinos, and other racial/ethnic minorities in the US to improve economic and social status, white folks still tend to be at the top of the "food chain" in the industry. Relative to other industries, people of color may have made out better in music, but there still exists inequality.

 

The music industry (and even the arts more broadly) does provide opportunities for people of different backgrounds (racial, economic, gender, religious, sexual orientation, etc.) to get together across traditional social boundaries in the pursuit of a common interest and goal -- the creation of their art. In this way, the industry serves to help fight racism and increase our understandings of each other. The "contact hypothesis" might be of interest to some of you (see Gordon Allport's 1954 book about prejudice -- an oldie, but a goodie, and I've forgotten the title) -- basically we can break down prejudice depending on the quality of our interactions across prejudicial lines. For example, just living in the same town as someone of a different background won't affect your beliefs and behaviors as much as living across the street from that person, or playing on the same team (or in the same band) as that person, or marrying that person, etc. The greater the degree of intimacy and the greater the shared mission between folks of different backgrounds, the more likely they are to be able to get past issues of racism and prejudice. Music helps provide that.

 

However, the music industry is notorious for white co-optation of black cultural forms -- today this is less explicit as it was back in the days of minstrelsy/blackface, but it still happens -- check out hip hop, for example. If you want a good read about this, check out Eric Lott's "Love and Theft" about minstrelsy and white folks' love of black culture and their subsequent "theft" of those cultural forms. While it is a great thing for cultural/musical styles and ideals to be shared, part of the history of that sharing in this country has involved differences by race in terms of who benefits economically from that sharing.

 

Sorry to go on so long -- I'm a PhD candidate in sociology, and race is one of the things I've studied and continue to study. Curious to hear what others think -- especially those of you who are pros in the industry, as opposed to an amateur like myself.

 

Peace.

[g.]

Like Michael Jackson would have a clue about the real world for the past couple of decades ; }  Sure, there's racism. Where isn't there racism? It's too bad MJ's career and financial opportunites were stifled. Maybe a member of the primate family without as much reconstuctive surgery can help him put this aright. As soon as he's done with his banana anyway...

 

Music itself has helped black people immensely in claiming more of a part in what was one hell of a sick society.

 

Music Industry? I think it just tries to be where it thinks the money is. The colors gold silver and green define its prejudices more than any others could.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Michael, who's biggest racial statement so far is "Ebony and Ivory" ?

You must have forgotten about his song "They Don't Care About Us" that went "Jew me, do me, kick me, kike me". Excuse me ? Michael sure looked racist himself at that time. I'm all for freedom of expression but it's hard for me to see that as not being way over the line and it made him look immature and self-destructive..

[Joel Wilson]

Am not now, nor probably ever will be associated with teh MJs, Mariah Careys, or other high profile megastars of the music industry. Truth be told, I am really not too concerned with their vapid life styles and nor do I tend to live my life vicariously through them.

 

I do, however, have my own life that has been exposed to racism and have found that music generally bridges that often-ideological gap. Case in point: Many years ago, in a far away land and time know as San Bernardino in the early 70s was a club called Geris Velvet Lounge on Mount Vernon. This was located in the predominantly black (Afro- American was not PC then) part of town. At the invite of a (black) friend of mine who played sax in the house band, my Hispanic buddy (guitar) and I showed up one Friday evening. When we walked in, it was like a Cowboy movie were the piano player stops and all eyes peer at the lawless evil villain as he swaggers up to the bar. No one spoke to us, the bartenders ignored us, we could not even get a beer! It was a little awkward. But on the break, we pulled out our axes, joined the house band, and from then on everything was right with the world (or at least all right in Geris Velvet Lounge). I still could not buy myself a drink they were being bought for me!

 

Yeah, theres racism everywhere, even amongst (and within) every race. You just deal with it or not, and as opposed to violence, threats, drugs, and discrimination, music seems a pretty tolerable and acceptable avenue to close the gap.

[koolkid]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Of course, the answer would be "yes." there is all kinds of prejudice in all kinds of ways in all parts of life.

 

But more specifically, what about Michael Jackson's allegations?

 

Let's look at the main parties: Jackson, who has a particulary dim personal history, allegations of pedophilia, working his pocketbook off to (evidently) "look white"....but he has been one of the most significant forces in pop music today, taking his edgy, dancey, essentially message-less music to the world and the world bought it.

 

Then Tommy Mottola, who, as president of Sony, gets a talented young girl singer who sounds black and turns her into both Mariah Carey and his wife (that is "devilish" Michael) instead of letting her grow up and become mentally well.

 

Michael, who's biggest racial statement so far is "Ebony and Ivory" ("get together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano keyboard, oh Lord, why can't we.") sung with Paul McCartney, and then later bought his catalog.

 

Oh, the irony.

 

Anyway...the music industry has, in spite of it's history, been a way for lots of talented people of all ethnicities to put their message before the public.

 

So, a 2 sided question: Is the industry racist; and have you ever personally been effected by it?

interesting post,wasnt ebony and ivory stevie wonder and paul mccartney??

[_Sweet Willie_]

nope. mikey and pauly did it. think back to the relatively bad video...they shaved together, rode in a wagon together, and other fun stuff.

 

on another note, is it worth making a distinction between the music industry vs. music/musicians? how many of us consider ourselves part of an "industry" per se (maybe some of you pros and sessionistas) vs. just playing for fun, having the occasional or regular gig at the local tavern or club, or hitting the jam scene (and if we're lucky we pick up $50 here or there)?

[bassaddik]

Racism in music?? NO!!!! ( oh, and by the way, i have a Strat played by Jimi just last week to sell you, too)

Racism abounds.. its a doubled edged sword-

i am a white Hispanic- i played in a very popular band for two years- i dint want to say who, but lets just say the frontman's name is 2 letters and he wants to shake, shake, shake his booty.

After 2 years i was let go- without an incident- for another bassist- i found out when my bst friend ( a black bassist) called me to tell me they asked him to audition for my gig- NICE!!

anyways. i later found that they had asked several bassists to audition.. all black. Now, i like to thimk that after 2 years, if im still on, it means im doing my gig- they told me it was my playing.. maybe it was. Inside story was the leader likes to sourround himself with black players to " legitimize" his call to being a funky band-

I am by no menas a racist, but i saw this clearly.. so i was out of work.

When a production show in Vegas had auditions for a predominatly latin flavored show- i lucked out and got the gig, maybe because i look latin- and i know they prefered that look- so maybe i beat out a black player because of this...

its NOT a perfect world , folks- and some people make sure there are divisions- i say we beat it by standing united in MUSIC. The bassist that took my gig is my friend- i have no bad feeling for him- whern the guy who fired me sees this ( they come to Vegas a lot) he is bothered.. i say, too bad- music is stronegr than color difference-

and Micahel Jackson?? - who cares?? he has had more money than anyone could ever hope for.. so hes tripping with all this..maybe if he had been accused of child molesting and put out some decent music for achange , things would go better for him- i have little sympathy foir anyone who cries because they have lost millions and need more.. read: Mike Tyson. Get a clue!!

[koolkid]

mccartney and jacko did say say say together and bob giraldi directed the video

 

ebony and ivory is stevie wonder and mccartney

[ibescotty]

I think that the the industry is very bottom line oriented. If that means a white guy dressed in a velvet jump suite covering songs written and performed by people of color sells.....Then they will sell it. The music industries racist attitude is merely a reflection of the buying public. To me this means that we still have a very long way to go.

[_Sweet Willie_]

koolkid -- you're totally on target. my bad. no wonder i was having trouble trying to hum "ebony and ivory" while running the shots from the "say say say" video thru my head.

 

i'll go back to what i wrote earlier about racism and prejudice, and expound on it. i think that it's important to distinguish between the two -- we can all be at the crap end of prejudice, but i don't think that's true for racism. racism has to do with the maintenance of a power structure that is dominated by one group (or more) over others -- and prejudice is one manifestation of that. in the u.s. that group is white folks. that said, i think that ANYONE can be racist if they do things (with OR without intending) that perpetuate the power of one group because of physical, surface features over another. thus contributing to continued systemic inequality. while both racism and prejudice are bad, i see racism as a larger, more systemic/institutional level issue.

 

i think that most musicians are able to see through issues of prejudice and get past racial differences because of the common goal of "juicin' the jam to a higher level." i think the industry isn't always able to get past those issues because of desires to promote a certain image for certain types of music, or maneuvering so that some folks can make some green at the expense of the white, black, brown, and yellow.

[_Sweet Willie_]

ibescotty's got a good point.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by ibescotty:

I think that the the industry is very bottom line oriented. If that means a white guy dressed in a velvet jump suite covering songs written and performed by people of color sells.....Then they will sell it. The music industries racist attitude is merely a reflection of the buying public. To me this means that we still have a very long way to go.

I've heard that theory before and I think it implies that the buying public is racist. It's not racist to choose to listen to what you listen to. My CD collection is primarily white men singers, guitarists, etc. but that doesn't make me part of a "larger racist faction" that are predjudist against hispanics, blacks, and asians.

 

I don't buy country, new age, boy band, or techno discs either.

[g.]

I'm sure Ted Nugent can straighten this mess out.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I'm sure Ted Nugent can straighten this mess out.

Two weeks in the marsh hunting with The Nuge and Michael might just become a man....and isn't that REALLY why he finds himself in these circumstances ?

[AlembicKoa]

As is sweet_loop, I am also a sociology major, though not at his level. My degree is a BA Double Concentration in Socio/Psych. Racism is rampant in our world. I can only hope that we learn from the simple words of a man named King...

 

"Judge a man on the content of his character..."

[_Sweet Willie_]

Those Nuge cracks are pretty amusing.

 

SteveRB, just 'cause you purchase and listen to a lot of white male singers, guitarists, etc. doesn't suddenly thrust you into the racist masses. But, for example, I dig Stevie Ray Vaughn (RIP), but recognize that while he contributed greatly to music (and the blues in particular), I also need to listen to and buy music by some of the ol' school, black bluesmen whose tradition he continued. If I'm gonna love Led Zep (as I do), I have to pick up a little Willie Dixon.

 

I may have been quick in my support of ibescotty, although I still think he has a point. It's a two-way street -- sure, what we're willing to buy affects what the industry will produce, BUT the industry is also a "culture-maker" and what they make available limits what choices we have. I think we've covered this kind of stuff in other threads -- how we can play and make music we like, that's great, that other folks dig, but we still won't get signed and on MTV even if it's as good as what else is out there.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Good points sweet loop. Racism is an issue that sometimes gets misunderstood on these bbs's because no one has 30 minutes to try to make a point about a complex issue.

 

I actually do have quite a bit of what could be "black music" if I bothered to fixate on industry catagories. Joe Sample, Sade, Hendrix, etc. I've tried to go back and explore jazz, blues, and rock roots but I seem to only relate to music from the late '60's to the present. My loss I guess.

 

I think we live in a time where most Western music has so many scattered influences that labeling genres and styles becomes almost silly. Everything is stirred in a big pot to a degree, except for classical which is in a time warp.

[Jason Hoyt]

So, a 2 sided question: Is the industry racist; and have you ever personally been effected by it?

You guys may not listen to hip-hop, but I have in the past, and there is enough racism in rap, to piss me off for decades... If a white group existed that slandered other racial/ethnic groups in a like manner, the L.A. riots would look like a bar fight...

[bassaddik]

sorry about the obnoxious huge avatar . people-- i took it off-- duh!!!

[Mike H.]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I'm sure Ted Nugent can straighten this mess out.

YOU DAMN SKIPPY!!!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Still diggin' the Nuge nuggets.

 

Gotta say, bassape, as a hip-hop fan, that I both agree and disagree with where you're comin' from. Sure, there are some rugged rap lyrics out there, but a lot of those lyrics come out of a history of oppression and socio-economic depression rooted in being a racial minority -- true even for Latino rappers. There's also some more explicitly heavily socially conscious stuff as well. Hip-hop has been one of a few genres that has been openly critical through its art of the industry and the exploitation of artists, black, blue, or green. I'd recommend you check out some old school KRS One or some newer school Mos Def, Talib Kweli, or Common.

 

Sure, some of the same types of lyrics from white artists about other racial groups would get hit even harder by criticism and a lack of acceptance, but it matters that white folks are the numerical majority in the US and that the captains of industry, politicians, etc. making decisions about where this country goes are predominantly white -- i.e., in the driver's seat. Hip-hop, for many, has been a source of empowerment in that environment. It is also, strangely enough, consumed (i.e., bought) predominantly by white suburban males.

[davebrownbass]

Of course, you are right about "Ebony and Ivory" It is Stevie...I was just so caught up in the irony.

 

Now, before I taught, for 18 years I was employed by 3 different hospitals as supervisor of the custodial crew...a white, college educated man supervising predominately black men and women.

 

I would say that I made it my life's mission to make their life easier for them; many remain dear friends.

 

I got fired from all three jobs because I was a pain in the ass to upper management...fighting for the rights of my employees.

 

In the last hospital, administration did a re-model and gave EACH department (read college educated, white professional people, lab techs, nurses and etc.) a private break area with locks on the door. My employees were eating in a locker room in the basement next to the dumpster...the locker room also had urinals in it...no one should eat where they urinate.

 

They had managed to contrive a way for EVERY employee to rotate weekends except for one white guy and one Hispanic woman. Everybody else was African-American.

 

I refused to go along with that schedule, made an issue and got fired 2 days before Christmas. On my ninth anniversary date!

 

Institutionalized racism is pernicious; even more so if the institution doesn't realize it.

 

However...I believe that when anyone with a personal ax to grind cries racism, they cloud the issue. It's no wonder some people don't believe racism exists when you got somebody as big as Michael Jackson whining about it like this. People can see through that and never have to look any further.

 

I'm not so very upset (sorry bassaddik) if someone hires a guy who "looks the part." I hate for anyone to get fired, but face it...if I had hair down to my ass and wore torn jeans and never shaved I wouldn't look like a teacher and I shouldn't be one. (It's more irony though, bassaddik, that a white guy felt the need to hire black guys to get more cred!)

 

But if bassaddik were rejected because "no White Hispanic could possibly understand this music" I would be banging the drum on the corner for him.

 

Yea, it drops away when we make good music together. But when the business, the "industry" comes into play, when money starts talking, people run to protect the familiar.

 

More Stories? So far, no one has complained that Mottola got himself a young chippie...but as a teacher who has seen that happen firsthand I am outraged. (A close family friend of ours had only one child, a 17 year old daughter who disappeared in the middle of the night last year. When we found her, she had moved in to her math teacher's house...he'd kicked his wife out! His son is older than this young lady, and is living in the house with them!!!)

 

Don't trade your lust for a young person's dreams, it's the lowest kind of low...

 

And Sting sings,

 

"Don't stand so, Don't stand so, Don't stand so close to me."

[Jason Hoyt]

sweet_loop:I'd recommend you check out some old school KRS One or some newer school Mos Def, Talib Kweli, or Common.

Dont take this wrong, I'm not trying to flame anyone here... Back "in the day", when hardcore rap made its way into white suburbia via college radio stations, I was introduced to many artists at a very young age. KRS One, Slick Rick, Quame',Kool Moe Dee, EPMD, Public Enemy, Digital Underground, Ultra-Magnetic MC's, A Tribe Called Quest, Brand Nubian, Black Sheep, X-Clan, Run DMC,Gangstarr, NWA, Ghetto Boys, and the list goes on... I loved the grooves and the rhythms and the way the words were put together. It was probably the raw, honest quality, that I most admired (pop radio at the time was big into corporate rock)... I grew up poor and white. From that aspect (poor), I could identify somewhat. I never thought I was a "gangsta". I certainly didn't think that by listening to this music I was black or empowered, unlike alot of suburban youth today. But lets not forget about the other infinite amount of "minorities" as well... Every ethnic and cultural boundary that can be drawn, has been. It is good for affirmative action groups, who contend that a person should not be denied a position because of thier skin color, but should be hired because of it. It's laughable. If I was a "minority", I would be infuriated and insulted to know that I did not get a job through my own hard work and effort -only a hand out because of my skin color. It sets up a dangerous practice and underlying ethos, to which most future americans will (and presently do) wonder, "where is my break? I'm part pink-elephant, tooth-fairie, etc..."

white folks are the numerical majority in the US and that the captains of industry, politicians, etc. making decisions about where this country goes are predominantly white -- i.e., in the driver's seat.

While I am not naive enough to beleive that we are all born into the socio-econimic environments that nurture a prestigious carreer, A poor black kid from Philly became a heavy hitter in the Government. -Colin Powell. It can be done, and there are Black men of power other than Jesse Jackass or Louis Farrakhan. Political "correctness" has gone too far. Why not have a "white music scene"?! Oh yeah, it would be racist... Racism DOES exist. It permeates every industry, including music. I'm glad it does, because music (especially popular music) can be a themometer of public sentiment. Some of the bands in the 60's gave us an indication that something was about to go down. Some Hip-hop artists are pushing the merc, but there are a few who are helping to cool it down...Just my 2c's

[Wesola78]

"Political "correctness" has gone too far. Why not have a "white music scene"?! Oh yeah, it would be racist... "

 

Right on Bassape! This isn't related to the music industry, but this is what ticks me off. Its okay for L.U.L.A.C. to lobby for hiring more hispanics in federal jobs, but not white people. That would be racist. This is what makes me very angry, this type of hypocrisy. I know there was a time in this country when Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, (Oh yeah, the Irish too. Let's now leave them out because they're white!) were discraminated against, but this country has swung so far the other way that its ridiculous. I've lost out on promotions where I work because I'm white and they needed to hire someone of color. Forget qualifications, diversity is the most important thing! Yes, I have seen this happen. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong!

Okay, I'm done for now. I didn't post here to intentially offend anybody, but I'm entitled to my opinion like anyone else. By the way, I still think this country has more opportunity for anyone no matter who they are, or where they came from.

[g.]

Rap and sociological phenomena? How 'bout all the gazillion honkie hormone hypers who buy it because 808 (made in japan) through a mobile sound bazooka is a gorilla pounding its chest challenge to other macho boyz. Hoo o hoo's got the biggest fists and the soon to be def-fest eeeeaaars?

 

No race there, just chemical cocktails of aggression, young lust, and poor birth control ... Should get 'em all a Squire P and a Peavey Mark III with an old 2x15 ; }

[g.]

Oh yeah: WORD. CB4 be in da house, homie - the big house! U know - parkin' baby's got back 'side mom n' pop on the sofa, wishin' they coulds top-pop a 40... ; {

 

News at eleben, now that's whack!

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by sweet_loop:

i think that most musicians are able to see through issues of prejudice and get past racial differences because of the common goal of "juicin' the jam to a higher level."

This is interesting. Do you really believe that something about being a musician helps one "see through the issues," and if so, how?

 

I have a very successful band director friend who is ultra-conservative, who evidently is very quick to jump to a racist conclusion behind closed doors. Yet I've seen this guy work in a totally Hispanic school and in a 40% African-American school without a shred of favoritism or institutionalizing.

 

My assistant is a Black woman...we are tight. One of the schools in her assignment has the highest Afrrican American percentage in the district...the prinipal keeps her there primarily because of the racial identity. She often states that I, a white male, would be the only other teacher in the district who would be successful there.

 

I'm aware of how "black music" has been the engine powering top 40 for a long time. It seems the pattern stays the same; black musicians develop a style and white kids listen and dance to it. Eventually, they absorb it, learn it, perform it, institutionalize it...and black musicians move on. Here are examples: Rag, Jazz, Blues, Rock, Funk, Fusion, Hip Hop.

 

But perhaps it isn't about music at all...suppose it is about the young kid's natural tendency toward rebellion and shocking behavior...they absorb to shock their parents.

 

And you also, I think, have to admit that it is not totally black music...rather the marriage of certain African rhythmic heritage (see natty Fred's posts), freedom from Victorian sexual hangups and the black cultural experience with the (primarily) Euro music theory, music form and song structure and instrumentation.

 

I often say America's REAL strength is how we solve problems caused by our diversity. First conflict, then compromise, then a better answer than would have otherwise happened. In this theory, political correctness, defined as the avoiding of conflict softens and weakens America.

 

Everybody wants the same things; safety, security, you know, the entire Maslow Hierarchy. The pursuit of those needs will cause conflict...if it wasn't race, it'd be something else.

 

Americans have learned to confront and compromise, even if it takes, for example, a Civil War to get there.

 

We fight our Vietnams enthusiastically, and when we get beat up, we come to the table...yeah, we say we want "Peace with Honor" but we really want to "get the hell out of Dodge." And America and Vietnam BOTH benefit.

[_Sweet Willie_]

DBB, I think that there are certain arenas in which there is a greater tendency to have meaningful interaction between people of different backgrounds -- in some cases the differences in those backgrounds are racial, in others it's gender, etc. I think music is one of those places where there is greater opportunity to cross paths with folks of different racial backgrounds. Certainly this can vary by the styles of music one plays -- we would probably have more difficulty listing a whole bunch of notable black musicians in the classical music world than in jazz, for example. Sports is probably another example -- again with some variation by sport. When the opportunities exist to have more than simple contact, but meaningful interaction and relationship development between folks of different backgrounds, then we reach a place where we can start to do the important work of breaking down steretypes and fighting prejudice and racism. The world of music is a place where those opportunities exist.

[ibescotty]

More on the bottom line.

 

A record label decided to promote rap to suburban white kids with Vanilla Ice (Robert Van Winkle)and can you blame them. It was a cash cow. It was the first album to reach all five certification levels -- gold, platinum, double-platinum, triple-platinum and quadruple-platinum -- in just one month.

 

Cha Ching!!!!!

 

Maybe it's not racism in the sense that the people buying the record are racist, but how about the people that are distributing the music to the masses. The radio stations. The Beastie boys early success is another example. I think those guys paved the way for Rap and Hip Hop to get more exposure no matter who was doing the music but it makes a statement that the industry had to have what they call "cross over" artists push the style out there.