ideas for practical A/E bass

[tarsia]

trying to contact Rick Turner or other luithers that might interested in ideas for an acoustic\electric bass guitar that would be capable of playing

with no outside amplification alongside a few acoustic guitars and maybe some hand drums etc... as a bass player with 20 yrs. experience & some

engineering/electronic background, I have some questions & ideas, that might be relevant.

[Rick Turner]

Hi. I'm at rturner466@aol.com

 

It's a tough trick if you want it to sound good and even moderately loud!

[Jeff Addicott]

I'm not a luthier, but I can reccomend a couple of things that would help to project you:

 

1: High action

 

2: Use a heavy pick

 

This combination helps me use my (appalling homeade piece of junk) ABG at rehearsals, with just barely enough volume. I'm sure a good ABG with real acoustic projection would do somewhat better.

[Steve Lawson]

Having experimented with a lot of acoustic basses over the years (in shops and reviews), I came to the rather obvious realisation that there's a damn good reason why a double bass is as big as it is, and you're not going to get that kind of tone, response, volume and low end from a box 1/6 of the size. true ABGs are attempting to defy the laws of physics. They can generate a nice tone at low volume, which can then be amplified, or they can be louder and boxy with no proper low end, but you ain't gonna get both without a much bigger box.

 

For me, the best bass I've found for that kind of playing is a Rick Turner Renassaince (i still can't spell that!!!) - I've got a 5 string fretless and it sound and feels amazing. Not the kind of bass that Ican use all the time, but neither could I have ice-cream for every meal. There are times though, when few other basses come close. Rick's got a pedigry as a bass builder that covers the first experiments with active electronics, graphite necks and multiple outputs from a single instrument, and now he's added the development of the Renassaince to his CV, there's little doubt that he's one of the most important figures in the development of the bass guitar since Leo Fender...

 

For the sake of accuracy and breadth of research, you should certainly check out the Rob Allen bass, the Godin A4, Harvey Citron's acoustic bass and some of the 'big bodied' ones, like the ovation and the martin... My money still sits with Rick's bass.

 

Have a look at the bassdotcom section of my website for the full review of the Ren bass that I did for Bassist Magazine (When I'd finished the review, I e-mailed Rick, told him there was no way he was getting the bass back, and that he should invoice me for the cost, which he did... )

 

If you need it for practice, buy a small amp - a tiny 20 watt practice amp is going to give you scads more volume than an ABG unplugged...

 

cheers

 

Steve

www.steve-lawson.co.uk

[Rick Turner]

Thanks, Steve!

 

At the risk of belaboring this thread, here is the correspondance which has flown back and forth between Tod (tarsia) and myself in the past couple of days. Pretty much explains where I think this whole thing sits...

 

Rick,

 

Thanks for the quick response !

 

Yeah, you're probably right about the headroom Vs:

 

watts needed etc..., I guess what I was thinking was

 

that with all the small subwoofer systems for P.C.'s

 

home audio systems & even battery powered boom boxes

 

with extended bass response, that we were getting

 

close

 

to producing extremely efficent bass freq.

 

reproduction

 

in a smaller package.

 

I've played most of the top end acoustic bass guitars

 

and to tell the truth, I don't think any of them

 

Taylor, Tacoma, Martin, Takamine, etc...

 

can generate the volume at the low end needed to

 

compete with a decent acoustic guitar.

 

I've yet to purchase a A/E bass - because to me

 

if you have to plug in to play with other instruments

 

whats the use ?¿?

 

Like I stated earlier, I believe it's the physics of

 

sound, those basses that I've tried had a decent

 

volume

 

above about the 2nd fret on the A string.

 

You mentioned the Guitarron, I think I remember an

 

article in Bass Player about this instrument (were you

 

the writer?) and I've talked to some of my Mexican

 

co-workers who are musicians & they say this

 

instrument

 

is extremely hard to play physically - high action

 

no frets etc... is there no way to put this design

 

towards a modern Acoustic bass guitar with better

 

results?

 

What about incorporating a built in compression type

 

device to the electronics/amplification system on the

 

Bass design I was envisioning? With the newer

 

amplification designs I've seen with torrodial

 

transformers & etc... I would've thought that

 

coming up with a feasible design would be

 

reasonable, I have a powered personal monitor

 

right now sitting under my PC monitor that I use for a

 

subwoofer - it pushes 50watts, has a 5" woofer with a

 

port, 1" tweeter, controls for Vol., bass, treble -

 

inputs for 1/4" , RCA & XLR ! - it weighs about five

 

pounds & is about the size of the typical "HotSpot"

 

monitor" it's made by Anchor audio.

 

this is the type of technology I'm thinking.

 

I know they sell battery type small amplifiers, I

 

believe Crate makes a few models & possibly a few

 

other

 

manufacturers as well. But as I said before I guess if

 

I have to plug in, why have a seperate Acoustic bass

 

!!

 

Anyway I just looked at how long this response was !

 

WOW, I can get long winded !! LOL!

 

Just hoping to talk to some like minded people

 

looking for a possibility, thanks for the listen!

 

Later, Tod

 

 

 

Dear Tod,

 

 

 

One of the biggest problems is that I've never heard a really compact speaker/amplifier combination I think is worth putting inside an instrument. The stuff that is small has no headroom, and it all sounds like crap. How do you get around that? You plug into an real amp! The smallest decent sounding speakers I've heard are the EA 8" cabinets, and even playing at "acoustic levels" you need about 30 watts to have any headroom......That's not a rig which would be logically packaged inside a bass.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the way to play acoustic bass at competitive volume levels is to play either upright or guitarron. I'm having trouble just making a baritone acoustic guitar sound as full and deep as I think it really should. That's getting into cello range with a smaller box, and it's not easy.

 

 

 

But, if you've got something which actually works, then there's probably a market for it. The danger for you is that unless it works really, really well, people are just going to say, "If you want it to sound good, plug it into and amp." I just don'e think there are speaker/amplifier combinations which meet all the requirements for an all-onboard system.

 

 

 

Rick Turner

 

 

 

Rick,

 

The instruments you make are at the very least, "works

 

of art" - I wish I could afford to own one of yours!

 

I'm sure the price is well worth the inherent

 

quality!Don't get me wrong here, I'm definetly

 

begining to understand the whole dilema, I was

 

originally just

 

searching for some answers from qualified people

 

(which I am sure that I'm not ! } as to if this whole

 

idea was reasonable from a regular consumer musician's

 

standpoint.

 

Anyway.......... I appreciate the time you've taken to

 

"enlighten" me .

 

Maybe someday when they invent the 100 watt amp on a

 

chip footprint & a speaker the size of a postage stamp

 

with a 20hz - 20khz freq. reponse will this whole

 

thing become a possibility.

 

Thanks again for putting up with my meandering

 

thoughts!

 

You're Good people !

 

Peace Out, Tod

 

 

 

Dear Tod,

 

 

 

The point for me of an A/E bass....my Renaissance series....is simply that they sound great plugged in, and that sound has a very "acoustic-friendly" essence to it. It's the semi-hollow design, the pickup design, the fact that 90% of them that we build are fretless, the string design I use......etc. I've had such acoustic purists as guitarist Bob Brozman say, "Why would anyone take an upright bass on the road when you can play this thing."

 

 

 

If you're looking at five pounds of electronics, cabinet, and batteries.......on top of an instrument which is going to weigh at least another five pounds.....and now you've got to compress the signal to keep from overloading the amp/speaker.....well you see where I'm going.

 

 

 

Yes, I wrote the guitarron article in BP, and all I can say is those players are tough SOBs......they can crack walnuts with their left hands. And that's what it takes, at least right now in 2001 to get an ABG to work.

 

 

 

It's all about energy conversion, and frankly, acoustic instruments aren't very efficient, and they get worse the lower the frequency range goes unless they get very big. Why is it that mandolins, fiddles, and banjos can drown out a D-28 in a Bluegrass band? Acoustic efficiency, that's why. It takes a lot less energy to produce the higher frequencies.

 

 

 

ABG's are a doomed concept in my current way of thinking. I just try to make things which sound good plugged in.

 

 

 

Rick T.

[tarsia]

Thanks to all you guyz, for the responses -

I'm new to this forum and appreciate the input ! Rick was extremely helpful & insightful, What can I say - I had an idea

that seemed like a good thing & wanted some expert advice.

I'm sure I'll be posting again soon - LOL!

Thanx again !

Tarsia

 

This message has been edited by tarsia on 07-14-2001 at 08:41 PM

[BoldRuler]

ABG or A/E Bass, whatever it's called, is certainly no match for upright, indeed if you want to be loud enough for group playing amplification is a must.I've been looking for an acoustic for several years, and found a Korean Galveston in my price range. It's nice for practice as well as low volume duet or trio stuff. As has been stated in this and other threads volume is weak, you need a really big box and monster hands to wiggle those string enough to be really loud, but... the piezo pickup and electronics are hot enough to deliver a line level to the computer without a preamp, so tracking bass lines is very straight forward and fairly quiet. I bought a little 10W amp to augment the sound, and although touchy to get a clean sound, it's enough to handle a small jam. Remember it's acoustic, so feedback can be a problem. But hey, <$400, and a different set of tones are available that I don't get out of my electrics is ok.

Happy playing!

Dave