dansouth Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 This is a direct cop of a thread from the Guitar forum, but it's a great idea, so I hope the six-stringers don't mind me pilfering it. What has made the biggest difference in your playing? What are the most valuable lessons, tricks, insights, etc. that you have learned over the years? I'll start things off with one I wish I'd learned years before - if you're not recording yourself, you're kidding yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornbread_medhotmail.com Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 The biggest thing that has helped me the most is I learn all I can about as much as I can, such as different styles. It helped get me through college by getting me scholarships for playing jazz, opera, oldies, blues, rock and Black Sabbath. Yes, I got a college scholarship for playing "Paranoid!" If I could give any piece of advice it would be to never stop learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 For me the biggest difference was starting to teach. Having to clarify what I knew and find a way to explain it to others has made me understand music so much better than just having been a student. The regular review of the fundamentals of bass playing has given me a pretty firm foundation. Another thing that has made a big difference for me is finding my own center. Without getting specific about my personal path, I have found connecting with my core essence as a being has made the biggest difference in my life and naturally my playing. However you choose to pursue this is your choice, but I can say that the greatest music comes from a deep, soul level connection to the creative source. Why do you think they call it "Soul Music"? ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtian_dup1 Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Playing amplified, acoustic, and through headphones. You hear so many different details in your playing, it is highlt educational. Try playing the same thing with the bass unplugged, amplified, and through a headphone amp. You will hear details in your playing that you never knew existed! - Christian Budapest, Hungary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good morning Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 The April 1999 issue of Bassplayer magazine. The words "Get Great Time" were emblazoned across the cover. Intrigued (being a piano guy with timing problems), I picked it up. Fascinating! Not just great exercises, but provocative insight into what makes good time. My time improved greatly, and the issue itself inspired me to take up the bass. Now I come home at day's end, work out a bass line to a slow, boom-tock-boom boom-tock drum beat, and just...relax. It's a great stress reducer and it helps my piano playing. With better time now, I appreciate music more and have started enjoying a genre I never did before -- blues. Seeing the difference that "time" has made, I try to beat it into my subconscious, too, by letting the drum sound play softly in the background while reading or just cleaning up around home. Well, that's what "time" did for me, and I owe it to that April 1999 issue. Thanks, Ed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 playing with other people actually put me to a point where i am in most of my life, from what i studied in college to my job now and what i want to do in the future. it's all from the fact that i started playing music with other people and really enjoyed it. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 swright, Hey, I'm glad the Time thing was helpful to you. It's been my personal crusade for many years. I have seen players improve drastically once they get serious about working with a metronome and focusing on their time. The great thimg about time work is it makes everything you can already do sound better, and the things you can't do yet come with less struggle. I know Jeff Berlin disagrees with this, and he is entitled to say and teach what he believes. He's a great musician and I respect the guy alot. However, I will not give up an approach that has proven to be very effective with all levels of player in all styles. Thanks for your endorsement, another satisfied customer! ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 I think that learning another instrument or two is very valuable to your playing on what you consider to be your primary instrument. You don't have to become a virtuoso, it just provides you with another perspective. I've felt like my time and groove feel have improved quite a bit since I started learning the drums. I think they come naturally for bassists anyway. ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLoy Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 I disclaim everything below with the concession that I don't teach, so I might me slightly short-sighted on this, but I have been taught many, many times in the past and present... Jeff Berlin tends to take extreme views, and while I don't necessarily agree with his argument that metronomes are useless (far from it) I think that he has some good points about how metronomes are sometimes misused... As I remember, Berlin argued in that column against the idea of teachers insisting their students ALWAYS use a metronome when they practice, no matter what they're practicing, and I do think that sometimes that's just not a good idea, especially when the student is starting out and learning something that requires careful thought about how to play the damn notes first...something that can be hindered when the student is constantly being barraged with an incessant "click-click-click" that almost seems to say "you're falling behind-you're falling behind-you're falling behind". Students don't need that kind of aggravation when trying to learn an etude for the first time (at least I didn't). That being said, a metronome is an INVALUABLE tool for working on certain things. While a student should not be forced to use a metronome every time he/she picks up their bass, working on one's time and sight-reading by using a metronome is ESSENTIAL and should be an important part of any student's lesson plan. I got my time drilled into me through careful use of a metronome coupled with some drum books (Louis Bellson's "Modern Reading Text in 4/4" is a book every bassist should own.) Working with a metronome teaches you to be conscious of tempo, to listen to something other than yourself to make sure you're placing the beat where you should (which you'll inevitably have to do when playing with a drummer.) Anyone who claims that working with a metronome is not necessary and that their time is good enough has never had to play to a click track. That'll burst your time bubble real quick if you've been fooling yourself. I guess the best way to sum up what I've been rambling about is that a metronome is an essential tool in working on specific aspects of playing (time, reading, working on playing accurately faster), but enforcing it as essential to ALL aspects of practicing doesn't really make much sense to me. YMMV. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by BenLoy: Working with a metronome teaches you to be conscious of tempo, to listen to something other than yourself to make sure you're placing the beat where you should Amen. One way I like to use the metronome to work on my time but avoid becoming rigid is to set it to click on the "one" of every measure or two. That way it will keep you honest with your time and you'll know when your rushing or lagging, but it allows your groove to breath a little bit. I think that once you can execute whatever you're practicing, you should set the metronome at a relatively fast subdivision (16ths) and then back it off (to quarters, halfs, wholes,) as you lock in. ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLoy Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Yeah, those are some good suggestions. Some that I've been working on recently are: -Setting the metronome to every whole note or even 2 tied whole notes (gulp) has been something I've been working on recently. -Sometimes I'll try to play something with the metronome clicking on the 2 of every bar...that's hard!!!!! -Set the metronome at 50 bpm or lower and play through scales in all 12 keys while taping yourself. Mostly I hate listening to it 'cuz I start to rush, but the results will (I hope) be worth it. -Simply thumbing ghost notes to try to make the "click" of the metronome seem to disappear. This gets eerie at slow tempos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Well, I agree that there are times the metronome should not be used. Like Jeff says, when a student is learning a new piece of music, it should be done at their own pace. Get the notes first, then deal with tempo. But eventually I think a new piece must be played in strict time to make sure the rhythms are all lined up with the tempo. I definitely see his point concerning many of his statements. He may not agree with mine though, but that's okay. Anyway, down the list, there is a topic called The Mighty Metronome, so look in there for more ideas. Also, if you haven't seen it yet, check out my article "The Metronome As Guru". You can get there through my website www.edfriedland.com/articles.html or www.bassplayer.com/trenches I also agree with the idea of playing other instruments. I still play a bit of g&*tar, and a little bit of keyboards. One thing that really helped me was learning to program drum machines. In the old days, I did many demo projects for people where I programed the drum tracks. It made me learn how drummers play and that made me a better bassist. I wish I could take the time to really learn to play drums, but that may not ever happen. So, the machine was my way of developing an understanding of the art. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Addicott Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Another great topic! Keep 'em coming! What has made the biggest difference? LESSONS! I was born with a good ear, and I picked up on some things pretty quickly on the bass, but for a while I was really stuck in the mud. Being a self-taught lone wolf is all very fine and well, but sometimes a little bit of professional help will really move mountains. Another thing? GIGS! I used to work at a fire tower every summer, all by myself for four months. In some senses it was an ideal practice environment (when the fires and the bears weren't too distracting!). I certainly did do a lot of work on scales, reading and transcribing, and even had a bit of fun with my 4-track. Alas, when I'd come out in the fall and try to play with people, I'd always fall flat on my face. Turns out, scalesmanship and reading are only a small portion of what you need to play the bass. Working out all on my own, I was neglecting some of the other skills that may prove handy (like... communicating!). I say "GIGS" because there's something you get onstage in public that you don't get in private "jamming". There's something about performing in public that I really like, and I've realized that I don't particularly like "jamming" with people in private for it's own sake. Lord knows, it's more than just the money; it's the whole experience. In public (and preparing for public gigs), you really need to be focused, and that's what I crave. Working in the studio is also that way, but even more intense! ------------------ Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 6, 2001 Author Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by clockwirk: I think that learning another instrument or two is very valuable to your playing on what you consider to be your primary instrument. You don't have to become a virtuoso, it just provides you with another perspective. It gives you a LOT of perspective. If you listen primarily to the bass line when you here a song, you're in trouble. You have to hear the whole arrangement, how all of the parts work together. Playing other instruments, even just at the dabbling level, can help. A related technique is using a sequencer to compose or arrange pieces. In addition to composing, I like to program a drum and piano pattern for jazz songs, then play along on bass. When I'm composing, I'll often program a MIDI version of the bass line before I record it. This offers numerous benefits. I can match the bass line to the music before investing time to learn the part. Plus, I've learned a great deal about PLAYING the bass by adjusting the length, timing, and accent (relative volume) of MIDI bass lines. The knowledge is takes to make a machine swing can translate to your playing, as well. Agree that JB is not "anti-metronome," but rather encourages wise application of the device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 The thing that made the biggest difference for me was learning to shut up and listen. I've always been a 'busy' player, but as I get more experienced I realize that everything I play sounds better when I just *don't play as many notes*. I've been working on this for the last 10 years or so, and it is still a constant battle in my mind. Especially if I'm learning or writing a new song. I too, am a multi-instrumentalist. I've found that it's helped me most when it comes to recording, especially regarding where each instrument is in the frequency spectrum. When I play keys, I make sure not to step on the bass part. When playing guitar, I make sure to give the keys room to breathe. It's been invaluable during mixdown. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 6, 2001 Author Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by ricknbokker: It's been invaluable during mixdown. Haleluliah, Brother! Engineers must be very happy working with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 That brings up another thing that has made a big difference in my playing...Producing/Engineering. Starting out in '83 with my first 4 track Porta-Potty, I mean...Porta-Studio. I started teaching myself the art and skills of producing music. Not just playing bass, but constructing an entire song, the form, all the instruments, the vocals, the mix, etc. This has been MOST valuable as it has given me an overview of music I would never get from the bass player's chair. Eventually I became skilled enough to be hired by others to work on their projects, seeing them from idea to finished master. Like Neil Stubenhaus said in the recent issue of BP, get a home studio happening. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Addicott: Alas, when I'd come out in the fall and try to play with people, I'd always fall flat on my face. This is another problem that can be helped by the metronome. Make sure that when you're jamming at home you practice jamming at a variety of tempos. Set the quarter at 60, 75, 90, 115, etc.. and practice your grooves or improvisation. Get used to a bunch of different tempos. I've found this to be a problem with bassists, guitarists, and especially drummers. You start a song at a different tempo than they're used to and if it's faster than their comfortable tempo, they slow it down. If it's slower--it speeds up. I've also talked to guitarists who were frustrated because they couldn't seem to play the licks they practiced with other people. Then, when they play the licks by themselves, they're all over the time. ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Worthington Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Learning to underplay. And then learning to underplay more. It took a while to realize just how much I was overplaying. Not always, and not during the whole song, but nontheless, I was sticking in way more than needed/wanted, FOR MY OWN BENEFIT. I'd listen to a gig tape, and think, What am I doing pulling off that hot run while the singer is in the middle of a line? I came to realize that overplaying, on all instruments, is a way of saying: Hey! Don't pay attention to the melody, or the solo, or the group groove, and instead, LISTEN TO ME! Overplaying is the equivalent of turning your back to the band and going off into your own world--screw them, this moment is all about me. Even if it's only for two bars. I've learned to be content to be in the groove, and listen to the whole band, and try to always remain focused on the song, and pick my spots. There are little holes in all arangements where I can put in my little hot lick, or cool harmonic, or get funky, but when it's what is called for. When it ADDS, not DIVERTS. Playing other instruments has also helped immensely, including performing on other instruments, because then I can return to the bass with a fresh perspective on what my role really is. p.s. I was playing a gig recently, and we were extending a song because lots of people were dancing, and there was great energy in the air. I was playing a fairly simple, very repetitive riff while the guitarist soloed. I started to vary my part, and realized that the groove was starting to go away, and quickly reverted back to the basic bass line. The old me would have found it boring, perhaps, and I would have restlessly looked to keep varying it up. But the emphasis was not on the bass part, and no one was actively listening to ME--and why should they at that moment? But they were hearing me subliminally; ironically, they'd only notice me if I screwed up. (Sometimes, like an umpire, the audience only notices the bass when they mess up.) But I was fine playing pretty much the same thing over and over for a while, because I was more focused on the swing, and I was really listening to the guitar, and the drums, and was conscious of providing the drunks a solid foundation to which they could display their ballet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Yo, Eric!! I here your P.S. This has happened to me on too many occasions... After rebuilding a groove I have so carelessly degraded, you can often see me pounding the neck of my bass w/my forehead!! DOH!!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Addicott Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Originally posted by clockwirk: This is another problem that can be helped by the metronome. Make sure that when you're jamming at home you practice jamming at a variety of tempos. Set the quarter at 60, 75, 90, 115, etc.. and practice your grooves or improvisation. Get used to a bunch of different tempos. I've found this to be a problem with bassists, guitarists, and especially drummers. You start a song at a different tempo than they're used to and if it's faster than their comfortable tempo, they slow it down. If it's slower--it speeds up. I've also talked to guitarists who were frustrated because they couldn't seem to play the licks they practiced with other people. Then, when they play the licks by themselves, they're all over the time. Actually, I was using a metronome heavily during my isolated months, at all kinds of tempos. I'm sure all that practice with scales and arpeggios in strict time did me a world of good, but at the fire tower I was missing that crucial other half of the equation: human interaction. I wholeheartedly agree about all your points regarding the metronome helping with tempos and riffs and such. (I wish a lot of the guys I work with would work on it!) But IME, taking these things and putting them all together in a real setting with other people is the ultimate thing that's made a difference for me. IMO, it takes more than just metronome practice to learn how to deal with a rushing drummer. It takes lots of stage time to develop the nuances, confidence and communication skills. (With certain drummers, an electric cattle prod would also help.) After working with different groups of people for awhile, I've gotten to know how each one works & how much I can trust them. (This is especially critical, come bass solo time.) Each group gets to take the music to slightly different places. Some are consistent but boring, others are exciting but sloppy; sometimes I strike gold and get a working unit that's tight AND spontaneous, and that's the best! It's that kind of human variability that makes this job exciting for me. But my skills in dealing with humans were withering when I spent so much time woodshedding all by myself. That's why I say that gigging has made such a big difference in my own personal development. ------------------ Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Absolutely. I totally agree that nothing replaces human interaction. Your post more reminded me of other problems I had seen in a variety of musicians....mainly that people would practice at a tempo which felt comfortable to them, but that wasn't representative of a tempo or feel that they'd actually play in. I've found that I write differently on the piano from the guitar partially because of the change in tempo comfort between the two instruments. different version of the same thing ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimT Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 This single most important thing? It's simple - start going to open jams! When I started playing bass, I started taking lessons from the beginning. At one point my bass teacher told me it was time to go to open jams. I thought he was a lunatic! The first time I went I just listened and talked to some of the people in the band (this was a reggae open jam). I went home and learned stir it up and came back to play the next week. I was so freakin' scared I could barely move. They let me play stir it up and then the lead singer faces me with his guitar and gave me some simple bass part for another song. It was such a rush! I met a lot of other musicians through this jam and a lot of reggae bass lines. Now I'm playing bass in the band and also a latin jazz band through a guy I met down at the jam. The most important thing I learned was that even though you may not be close to where you want to be on your instrument, you can still have a lot of fun and contribute what you have. SlimT It's all about the rumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimT Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 This single most important thing? It's simple - start going to open jams! When I started playing bass, I started taking lessons from the beginning. At one point my bass teacher told me it was time to go to open jams. I thought he was a lunatic! The first time I went I just listened and talked to some of the people in the band (this was a reggae open jam). I went home and learned stir it up and came back to play the next week. I was so freakin' scared I could barely move. They let me play stir it up and then the lead singer faces me with his guitar and gave me some simple bass part for another song. It was such a rush! I met a lot of other musicians through this jam and a lot of reggae bass lines. Now I'm playing bass in the band and also a latin jazz band through a guy I met down at the jam. The most important thing I learned was that even though you may not be close to where you want to be on your instrument, you can still have a lot of fun and contribute what you have. SlimT It's all about the rumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Lawson Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 I think that for me it was shifting the focus of my playing from 'notes' to sound... not tone, but just having my bottom line for music as being about sound and not about notes. this means that my focus is now 'simplicity with excellence'. If you can't play one in a bar with accuracy and control, playing exactly what you hear in your head, adapting it to fit the situation, then there's no need to move on yet. I spent a lot of time early on in my playing trying fast slap and tap things that were all about playing notes fast, not about sounding nice, or conveying any sense of emotion, supporting a song or being me... and as a result, it was all pretty much useless. Not that slap and tap are useless, but learning to play fast for the sake of playing fast, before you can play slow with full awareness and control means that you're kidding yourself if you think you'll end up functioning in a 'musicial' situation other than the NAMM show. i did a two day teaching seminar in Coventry UK this last weekend, and I think it was the first course that this college has put on where the students went away playing less notes that when they arrived... ) I also have to second Ed's point about teaching being a great lesson - I continually learn from teaching, from having to explain what I learnt on a subconscious level, the things that I adjusted to over time. I also learn by listening to my students - there's often much that I can learn from them, even if they don't know it... ) go back to the basics, get those right, then your foundations are solid, and the 95% of bass playing that most of us actually get asked to do in an everyday music situation will be good, instead of flawed due to excessive speed freakery... cheers Steve www.steve-lawson.co.uk StevieLand - go on, you know you want to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAP Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 I'll never forget the part in the movie Amadeus when the king, after hearing one of Mozart's performances, says, "It's very good...but there are simply too many notes!" When I first started playing bass with my band, I overplayed. It was frustrating to the band, and it was obvious I didn't know the role of the bass, and had no concept of keeping time. Mostly the misdirected nervous energy of a former guitar player. We now have four guitarists, a sax and a new bassist with no drummer (gulp). After reading Ed's Metronome As Guru, I remembered I had an old wooden wind-up metronome, and I have to say, it made all the difference. Once I developed an internal sense of rhythm, and decided on how fast the song would be played through small tempo adjustments, I could work a particular song without the metronome. Especially with a jazz walking line, I set it for quarter notes, then cut the tempo in half to add a challenge. Thanks Ed! I also play wooden flutes and panpipes, so I don't feel confined to playing a supporting role on the bass. The flutes provide the outlet for improvisation. I also realized that I couldn't get by as a bassist without knowledge of chord structure and music theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.