Recording Bass DI Has Got Me Buggin'...

[Curve Dominant]

YO YO WHAZZUP EVERYBODY! This is my first-ever post on this board, and I'm hoppy ta be here...

 

I'm recording a Ibanez SDGR 5-string (active EQ) direct into a Roland VS880EX DAW through an Alesis NanoCompressor, and something's got to give - this jus' ain't cuttin' it. It's touch and go: if I'm fingering a latin groove, I get a phat sound. But tonight I tracked a funk jam, and I'm running into problems. When I finger the strings in the verse, they sound nice and lush, but when I start snapping and popping in the chorus, it gets hairy. First of all, the VU's go spiking outta control, but it's muddy and totally lacks definition - the bass seems to drop out of the mix, in spite of the VU's clipping. This requires me to lower the over-all volume of my mixdown, which is quite lame.

 

Is this normal? Should I record 2 separate tracks, one fingered and one snap&pop? Would a better comp/mic pre/A-D convertor be in order? Or should I ditch the active pick-ups and buy a used Fender P?

 

I sing, write music and lyrics, play bass, guitar, synthe, program beats, and produce. But my first gig ever was playing bass, and I still luv it the most, so it breaks my poor heart that the bass is the most difficult for me to track. Anyone who can help me is the tops in my book 4ever.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, I have a Roland VS880 and have pretty good luck tracking bass. I find the input is okay for going direct, but I've had better luck running the bass through a DI into a board and then going into the Roland. Also, the Roland's effect card has a pretty good DI'ed bass effect. I think the NanoCompressor may be part of your problem. I'm not a huge fan of Ibanez basses, it could also be the probelm. I'd try a different signal path, and maybe borrow a different axe if that doesn't help.

 

 

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[swpdndbcity.net]

Just a guess here but it's the compressor. Not a great compressor to start with (I don't suggest the 3630 either), try cutting the same part without it. What I think is happening is that your hitting the comp too hard when you slap. The attack setting is sucking back the bass. Though you still have level the actual sound won't cut. Using compressors to tame extreme levels is a losing game. Do you find a huge difference between your finger and slap techniques? If you find you need a comp to help out I would suggest one that will give you a little more control over it's settings. Of course learning the best ways to get the most out of one will help you get what you want. Like I mentioned at the top, this is just a guess. Hope it lends a little insight. K.D.

 

This message has been edited by swpdn@dbcity.net on 04-02-2001 at 12:42 PM

[Curve Dominant]

Yes, I am going to bypass the NanoCompressor next time. It works fine for other stuff, but it seems to choke my bass. Thanks for that feedback.

 

Interesting to see that this forum's moderator is a fellow 880 user. Actually, Ed, I utilized an 880 fix to that track: I bounced it to another track, putting it through the A63 CompBass insert, and then through the B50 PEQ Bass 1 insert, where I doctored the tone. I used a sharp Q setting to remove some 80Hz nastyness, enhanced 200Hz fullness with the mid setting set to shelving, and used a high peak boost to get better definition (around 5-6K if I remember correctly). Then I did a Track Exchange, moving it back to it's original channel. It sound quite good now, and it sits much tighter in the mix. After watching friends doctor tracks in DP and PT, I'm starting to learn to use the 880 in the same fashion, and I'm finding it works spectacularly thanks to the flexibility that the virtual tracks afford.

 

curvedominant

[Bobby Bass]

All I can say is I have been using an Alembic F1X Preamp as a direct box for some time & the recorded sound is as good as I've heard. Of course the Jazz Bass Relic with EMG"S doesn't hurt. My Music Man Stingray 4 works well also. I'd say get rid or the compressor, let the engineer add it later if needed. Try another bass might also help.

 

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[David R.]

Curve - what are you doing with a nano-compressor on bass? You should know better than that. Those things can't handle the bottom, you need some quality to squish down there. They may be usefull for guitars or to prop up a speaker...

 

If you can spare the tracks, do separate takes for the poppin'. You will also want to EQ them differently.

 

Sheesh, a nano-thingy as a front-end on bass... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

-David R.

[Curve Dominant]

David R posts:

>>Curve - what are you doing with a nano-compressor on bass? You should know better than that.<<

 

I think I already stated that I would ixnay the Nano on the bass from now on, but thank you for re-inforcing that decision. Should I have known better? You vastly over-estimate me. I don't know Jack Shit when it comes to pro audio, which explains why I lurk on these boards - to learn.

 

That having been established, I do recall now many years ago, I think it was in the 80s, actually, that an engineer once had me track the thumps on one track and the pops on another. I think I'll take your suggestion and try that again. I may even experiment with sampling my own thumps and pops, and sequencing them, although I'd rather not resort to this. I've been working with some pretty slammin' bassists over the years, so my bass chops are a little rusty, but this CD I'm working on is gonna be a one-man show, so the rust is gonna have to go.

 

Thanks!

curvedominant

[Ed Friedland]

A little compression is nice for laying down bass, typically I'lldo a gain reduction of about 4-6 db with a 3:1 ratio. Any more than that and you start coloring the sound too much.

 

I haven't gotten that into the capabilities of the 880. I mostly use it like an analog machine as the whole editing thing on it seems very confusing. I use the effects alot, I like them. But the cut and paste stuff is very hard for me to grasp on that machine. I find the manual to be somewhat lacking in detail. There's plenty of stuff written, but it's not particularly thorough. I like the unit though, wish I had the newer one with the backlit screen though!

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Curve Dominant]

Thanks for that feedback, Ed. I'm going to try those settings the next time I track bass.

 

I have to agree that the Roland manual can be baffling. I wrote the Roland tech support phone number on its cover because I had to call them so often in the first two weeks that I had that machine. Another thing I did to help me navigate the VS: I typed out my own summaries for functions such as bouncing and editing and taped them to the wall behind the VS. But it's a killer machine once you get the hang of it.

[ChrisJ]

A little compression is nice for laying down bass, typically I'lldo a gain reduction of about 4-6 db with a 3:1 ratio. Any more than that and you start coloring the sound too much.

 

Ed,

 

Thanks for the tip on compression. What do use use for the attack and release times? How much do you vary those depending on the tune? For example do you vary the attack a lot depending on the tempo?

 

Thanks,

Chris

[mrhappy_dup1]

Hey curve!

 

We gotta stop meeting like this! People gonna start to talk.

 

The few times I tried recording direct bass into a vs I wasn't having much luck so I bailed and went through a di box into a console(compressor inserted) then to the vs. Worked great but those were methods that I was v familiar with. Just didn't have the time to monkey with the vs. I would bet you could get decent results using a more suitable outboard compressor and then into the vs. I'm sure given enough time, someone who knows his way arund a vs the way you do, could find a signal chain internally that would work.

 

As far as recording the "snap and pops" seperatly, It seems like a long way to go but it's certainly an option. It seems like you should be able to find a setting/signal chain that would allow you to record one continuous track unless of coarse you're trying to do something extreme.

 

Also agree that you should try as many basses/pick up combinations as you can. Sometimes you can chase your tail around trying to make a bass or pick up sound like something it's not(ie a passive ibanez to sound like active bartolini etc.).

 

That's all the balogna I have to spew for the moment. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

good luck.

 

Oh yeah...tried the bomb factory plugs(LA 2A/ 1176) for the first time last night and they are both rockin!! They would surely help your bass!!

They are a must have when you get your PT rig. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

hugs & kisses

 

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MH

[Ed Friedland]

Chris,

Depending on what style the bass part is I may vary attack and release times. For slap I want a quick attack and release, for fingersyle ballads I want a slightly slower attack (but not much) and a longer release time. Bottom line is use your ears, ideally compression should not be an audible effect (unless you want it to be).

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Bill Bolton]

There's nothing "wrong" per-se with using a Nano-Compressors for bass... that's just studio "I've got more expensive kit than you" hype. The trick with any compressor is how and when you use it.

 

ALso, recording bass well is NEVER easy, it requires time and patience to get a good bass sound, and it requires time and patience EVERY TIME you change the genre, style , groove, range of instruments in the ensemble etc.

 

If you want good recorded bass sound *someone* has to be prepared to work on it, whether it is in a home studio or a pro studio etc, there are no free lunches. It doesn't take fancy kit, it just takes some time.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Bill Bolton on 05-19-2001 at 11:09 AM

[ChrisJ]

ALso, recording bass well is NEVER easy, it requires time and patience to get a good bass sound, and it requires time and patience EVERY TIME you change the genre, style , groove, range of instruments in the ensemble etc.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I don't doubt you point that it takes time. Having said that, for novices such as myself, it is most helpful to have some starting points. If one considers the standard four knobs (ratio, threshold, attach, release) and if each of those has say 10 steps that are audbily different that means I have 10 times 10 times 10 times 10 = 10,000 possibilites to try for (as you say) each change of genre, style, groove, etc.

 

Perhaps I should narrow it down. I have two main axes. A Yamaha TRB active with piezo and magnetic pickups and a Zeta fretless standup electric.

 

With the Yamaha I am having trouble getting a nice full sustain. Should I set a fast attack to grab the initial peak and then squash it a lot to hold the level at a steady amount?

 

The zeta has a nice acoustic bass sound but it's attack is rather softer than the electric or even most real acoustic basses. THe strings are shorter than a real acoustic so thye are strung with noticeably less tension than an acoustic. SHould I set a slower attack in order to get get some definition on the note?

 

I know its almost impossible to answer these questions in any detail. I guess what I need most is some pointers as to how to listen.

 

What do YOU listen for when you adjust a compressor?

 

Do you use the compressor to "effect" the sound for some styles of music?

 

How does compression effect how the bass works with the kick drum?

 

Thanks,

Chris