tubes vs ss

[harp]

i know this is an old issue... however, with the newer technology in amp modeling. i would like to know if this is as strong an issue as in the past. also, the preamp and power amp combination of tubes and ss vs. all tube heads. weight and maintenance issues aside, can a pre/power match the tone of all tube. (ie; mesa vs kern/qsc) i realize this is very subjective, just would be interested in current opinions. thank you.

 

harp

 

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[brianrost]

My opinion is still NO but then again the "tube tone" I'm used to is very colored.

 

Heads like an SVT or Mesa 400 are not particularly "hi-fi", they have their own distinct sound. Solid state amps are more "neutral" to my ears (although they can have their own colorations, too). This is VERY noticeable when amplifying upright bass.

 

I'll also probably get flamed for saying that owning all tube, all solid state and hybrid (tube pre) amps, I don't find that one 12AX7 in the preamp makes much difference at all (at least in terms of getting the "tube tone").

[bootyquake]

To my ears, the only distinct "tube tone" I can hear is the giant, monstrous Ampeg SVT sound. Grindy, sweaty rock-and-roll, not-good-for-any-other-kind-of-music tone. Apart from that, it all comes down to your head and speaker combo. I've heard brittle sounds come from tubes, and nice warmth from the right ss combo.

 

My main gig amp is an SWR Basic Black with a tube pre-amp. It sounds nice. The gig/price ration has now come in at $1 per gig, so I'm pleased with it's performance.

[Jeff Addicott]

I don't have any experience with tube power amps, but I do use an Alembic tube preamp, which has a reputation for being extremely tube-like. Last year I tried an Ashly solid state bass preamp, which has a very good reputation. I enjoyed it a lot, but onstage, I couldn't get the overwhelming warmth that the Alembic had. The Alembic has this really organic, wolly tone that I'm pretty much hooked on. If I ever come across a solid state preamp that can provide this, I'll let you know...

[Ed Friedland]

I feel that most of the tube preamp gear I've used has colored the sound in a way I didn't care for. The tube/ss preamp on my Trace stays on the ss side. Though I did use the tube for my blues gig the other night. I noticed a little difference, nothing major. Sometimes it's the fact that the OEM tube may not be the highest quality you can find, but I tend to agree with Brian, that one tube in the front end doth not a "tube tone" make.

 

 

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[ricongacharter.net]

Ive been exploring this question for some time now both as an audiophile and for Bass and Guitar amplification. There are so many circuit design possibilitys it is immpossible to generalize and there are many design "tricks" that can yield tube or ss tone charcter regardless of the actual topology used. There is some compeling cicuit theory that suggests a hybrid design might offer some theoretcal advantages. I use the same tube pre with a ss power amp for my Bass (fretless jazz) and my guitar ( 175 with '50s single coils ) sounds kinda like a twin with the guitar and clean peavy with the bass it makes going to the studio easy as you only have to haul the pre amp however i bet i would be just as happy with any number of systems available out there ( a Walter Woods for instance ) with all this new " amp modeling" shit pretty soon it really wont matter anyway

rrrrrrrrrrrrr

[nhcomp45aol.com]

When recording I alter my sound by using a SS pre mixed with countless hi fi tube amps plugged into my Fender Bassman bottom. I use Dynaco ST 70,ST-35,MKlll,Fisher202,101,800c EicoST70 and many Lafayette and Heathkit amps.The tube sound is caused by output transformers and lack of damping factor. Usually about 10 to 1 as compared to 200 or 1000 to 1 of the average SS amp.The tube pre will only add harmonic distortion not the huge sound of an out of control undamped bass speaker.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

there's a lot to be said about the tube sound actually being more related to transformers. pretty much anything as nonlinear as a transformer will color your sound more than anything else. but tubes almost require a transformer to use (i know some audiophiles swear by their OTL amps, though, because they hate transformers), because they have such high output impedance.

 

i think that even a tube preamp adds fatness, though, in the form of low, even order THD. that affects the sounds of the higher frequencies you EQ in for nice midrange punch and high end snap when you're playing an open A, for example. these notes are in the harmonic series of the strings and contribute to the unique timbre of stringed instruments.

 

even with a highly specific EQ, it's very difficult to near impossible to replicate the sound of tubed harmonic distortion. the only way i've been able to get it is by playing through tubed gear.

 

don't believe the hype about the digital models, either. they're great for "close enough" sounds, but there is a fundamental difference in how tubes and silicon physically operate and respond to signals. the difference in sound and response is only revealed at the extremes of operation, but a digital model is, at best, only a very detailed approximation of the real thing.

 

of course, if you don't like the tube sound, all of this is moot....

[virtual.rayprodigy.net]

I play both bass and guitar,have done so since I was 14.I try hard to never play guitar through solid state amps because the feel that tubes give is an important aspect of several major styles of guitar music.But I like solid state for bass.I like the crispness of the attack and the superior damping (speaker control) that good ss amps provide.I did own an all tube SVT rig a long time ago and it was nice at lower volumes but I didn't really like the grit at high volumes too much.I like bass to be CLEAN and SOLID and so far the amps I've heard that do that best have all been solid state,although my SWR head does have a 12ax7 in the preamp but it doesn't go into distortion like some other hybrid designs.

[swpdndbcity.net]

I have owned so many different rigs. I always end up settling on tube front end with solid state power. I dug my SVTs but always needed more than one. Tube power loses punch past a certain point. My current rig is an Aguilar DB680 with a Eden WT1000 pwr amp. I get the tone I need from the Aguilar (10 tube stages with 2 bands of fully parametric tube eq) and vary the volume with the Eden. Gives me more consistent tone at different levels. Very tight and punchy.

[Bobby Bass]

If you don't think that one 12AX7 makes a difference in the sound of a bass preamp, you haven't tried an ALEMBIC F1X Preamp.

My AMPEG Preamp has several 12AX7 tubes & doesn't even come close to the ALEMBIC F1X Preamp.

 

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[Woodgrain]

My 2 bits, Tubes dont necessarily add warmth and SS isnt sterile. The reason tubes are great is because of distortion. If you can overdrive a tube/preamp to the point that the signal is still relitively clean but distorion is present, you can audibly hear more multiples of the fundemental waveform. Making harmonics and other nuances stand out. Low end can be fatter because of this - midrange and note definition can be more present and the highs can be smoother. Now tube amps are good if you have an understanding of what they can and cant do. If you have an "amp tech" who can mod and build to suit your liking then go for it, but Transient wise they are slower than SS. So for slappers SS might be the right choice. Solid state might be more of the way to go for fast and clean. Tube amps can be set up to be clean also, but generally i find that if you like tube tone you may as well get one that has power and breaks up so those overtones and harmonics can make your sound fat warm and punchy. Solid state is also punchy and can get a distorted sound, but its not the same. When playing with a pick....note definition in the higher frequencies is captured same with slapping. For finger style tube might be the choice.

 

my 2 bits

[Bill Bolton]

Ed Wrote:

 

> that one tube in the front end doth not a "tube tone" make

 

It really depends what is meant by "tube tone". There's no way that any pre-amp tube is going to produce the sound of a saturated output transformer. However, the non-linearities in a typical musical instrument tube pre-amp stage do have some distinctive "colouration" of their own and IMO that will come through in an otherwise solid state amp.

 

Similarly, a device like an SWR Interstellar Overdrive that does include a small tube power stage and output transformer can definitely do a remarkably convincing job of sounding like (a variety of) all tube amp running near or into clipping when feed into a solid state power stage.

 

As you noted, whether any individual will like that any particular "tube tone" sound or not is matter of personal taste.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Ed Friedland]

I may be willing to ammend my statement, as my TC preamp is in repair, I've been using the front end of my Trace Elliot again and trying the tube side of the preamp for a change. Yeah, it IS "warmer" sounding. The low end blooms a bit more, I lose some of the fast transient response for slapping, but it's definitely useful. I wouldn't want to be stuck with that sound, but it's a nice option.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Ben]

Tube power amp sound for bass is the sound of very low damping factor and saturated output transformer. It's a great sound, full of second-order harmonics, but personally I switched to solid-state for bass amps many years ago, once they became reliable, and have never looked back. Tubes are fussy and a bit fragile, and good output transformers weigh a ton.

 

For preamps, the sound of a 12a(t/x/u)7 is a bit "dark" compared to many other small dual-triodes, which is why I think it is popular in guitar and bass amps. It is not so universally popular for audio preamps and driver circuits.

 

I like tube sound for audio, especially for midrange and treble. A good tube amp images especially well. I use a tube headphone amp I built, as well as tube monoblocks as my main stereo amps. But I have recently traded my stereo's tube preamp for a solid-state preamp that uses just one AD825 chip per channel (about the best sounding op-amp I know of). And I bi-amp the woofers using a solid-state amp.

 

The point being, I guess, that I use what gets me the sound I want without much regard to whether it is tube or solid state. For bass amps, all-solid-state works fine for me, and is less fussy than tube equipment. And modern solid-state preamps can get you just about any sound you want, IMHO.

[tight_streamhotmail.com]

I've run with two setups:

 

One starts with a Boss SE 70 (w/amp simulation) into a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro and using the Mackie 1400i as a power amp.

 

The other is an Ampeg SVT-IV Pro, the one with 3 12AX7's pre and a MOSFET power amp.

 

I've got live and studio recordings posted at http://www.mp3.com/tight and I'd challenge listeners to tell me which is which.

 

However, to my ears, using the SVT rig as a preamp sounds a lot richer than going straight through to the Mackie's preamps. The amp simulater on the SE 70, definitely improves the sounds, but there's something palpably thicker from the SVT. Grant it, the Mackie to Mackie isn't your typical preamp setup, but I've talked to a few bassist that use the 1400 as a power amp.

 

In any event, you might find the MP3 songs helpful in giving you a example of what a particular rig might sound like (since the sounds what really matters)

 

Btw, i use a MM 4-string Stingray.

[musicman1ovation.net]

Originally posted by tight_stream@hotmail.com:

I've run with two setups:

 

One starts with a Boss SE 70 (w/amp simulation) into a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro and using the Mackie 1400i as a power amp.

 

The other is an Ampeg SVT-IV Pro, the one with 3 12AX7's pre and a MOSFET power amp.

 

I've got live and studio recordings posted at http://www.mp3.com/tight and I'd challenge listeners to tell me which is which.

 

 

tight_stream,

 

I enjoyed listening to the songs by Tight. I'm very curious as to what is what bass-wise, but there was such a variety of bass tones present (techniques/genres/styles) that I decided to focus my listening on what I assumed were the studio tracks: "Take What You Want" & "In The Morning". I liked the bass sound on both tracks, and they are different enough sounding to cause me to think that either the setup was different (as per the two you listed above) or you just purposefully dialed in very different sounds. From what you said, I assumed you do not go direct due to the fact that you mention power amps in both setups. However, it is possible you are going direct and placing a mic on the speaker. Since you mentioned the amp simulation on the SE 70 setup that sounded like something one would use direct.

 

Enough of this second guessing. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Let me get on with things I dug. I really loved the way you juxtaposed the word "lazy" in the "Take What You Want" lyric with that wild sort of funk-fusion lick that falls into the groove so handily to accent the irony of that laziness when one is hoping to love again. Cool. The sound felt appropriate to me; enough clarity to hear the lines and totally ride that lick. But it also has an old warmth of a corner-worn tweed cabinet under an orange sizzle. Real or Memorex? Beats me. I'd really loved to have heard these through a better speaker system than I have on my computer, but that was my impression.

 

"In The Morning" also has a vintage type sound to my ears... just a little later vintage. While both tunes had some tightness to the bass parts, "In The Morning" seemed tightest to me... I'm talking about the sound as opposed to the playing. It has very distinctive notes, and they all hit in the chest. In the seventies, chest-hitting bass parts were the thing. I think they basically refined what they were going for in the sixties. Slowly, as we approached the nineties, bass started scooping out the high-lows and low-mids, and boosting highs (suddenly bass cabinets had tweeters, and knobs were turning to push signal through them) and extreme lows. Bass moved from the chest to the balls... literally. With that, bass lines became less distinct. Trends and styles ebb and flow, and I think the chest is making a come back. I, for one, have missed it ever since it feel off the edge of the world. "In The Morning" has those solid lines. Had you played the same part, but with the sub-woofer/tweeter, the lines would have contributed to a rumble through which a little bird tries to whistle the tune for the uninitiated. I love the fact that (1) it is clear what the bass is playing, and you can feel it, and (2) the level of the bass fits in the mix and doesn't overpower. I would guess that it used the SE 70, but only because I am assuming you used one setup on one live cut and the other on the other. In other words, that tight sound is certainly possible through a tube stage, and it does like the warmth. Nevertheless, I've heard that sound in live situations through solid state. I've even heard it going straight from bass to recording console. In that direct case, compression is always used, and I believe direct-into-console playing technique tends to get used when it is most successful.

 

There are just so many kinds of bass sounds, and even when they may share a basic vision (as with Tight), there can be a number of different sounds as your MP3s show. Tight is combining a vintage sensitivity with some true original slants. I liked the fact that "Take What You Want" not only changed feels, but tempos. As the Tight bass sound is honed, it might be a good idea to narrow the song to song scope a little. I'm not suggesting that they all be identical, but that their difference be small enough so that the larger pool from whence they come could be referred to as the signature Tight bass sound. That's probably already coming about naturally, and your willingness to experiment with different approaches will no doubt make the choosing very workable.

 

Now that I have guessed at the rigs used, and probably missed it a good 180 degrees http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif, I'd really love to know exactly how you went about recording the bass on those two songs.