Jim T. Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Hi there! I am primarily a studio session bassist. I play a Pedulla Hexabuzz and a fretted Fender. MY QUESTION IS: Do you ever use a capo in the studio or on a gig to get a 30" or even less scale? I do this at home and playing with friends because I have pretty short/stubby fingers and playing in a baritone scale lets me fly on solos! (28") I would REALLY appreciate any anecdotes or copies of articles that I can wave around at my potential detractors! Is this a more common "technique" than I realize or am I a "pioneer"? DID THEY laugh you out of the studio/gig? On my Pedulla, the tone and low B impact are barely changed at all! I think that capoing a full length neck sounds different/BETTER than a short scale neck. With a BRASS nut, I still seem to get 99% of the depth and resonance as uncapoed. On recordings, no one has ever noticed or commented negatively on the sound. PLEASE respond if you have opinions, experiences using a capo and does anyone have an ultra wide capo to recommend for a 6 string bass. (longer than 2.1/4"?) MANY THANKS. I'm DEAD SERIOUS! Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 I have no experience with this, but I'm curious, do you capo up and tune down so you still have the same pitches at the open string? Or do you just leave the tuning and play from the 5th fret (or wherever)? ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 6, 2001 Author Share Posted March 6, 2001 Hi Ed! I really enjoy your method books. I'm a a teacher myself and appreciate your well sequenced material. It's far superior to most of what's available. Thank You! OK, enough of that eh? Anyway, Yes I tune down to open BEADGC on the 6 and BEADG on the five. SORRY I should have made that clearer. I just bought a Samick 25" scale mini bass that I will use as a piccolo bass. (By the way does anyone know of a good quality replacement mini precision pickup for this instrument?) I REALLY DO think that a 28" TRUE six string BASS with a good sounding low B IS POSSIBLE with some creative engineering. Perhaps a Low B nut with more mass than the rest of the nut to make up for the floppy/shorter string. Body through bridge with a cam tightener of some sort perhaps. Tapered or open core strings at the bridge and some sort of resonant material in the neck under the B. Oh, and of course the correct pickups! I've discussed this project with several builders and I may have to build this myself when I retire in a few years and prove that it CAN be done. Well, that's where I may be headed with this capoed bass thang. Any other opinions/experiences out there? Thanks again! Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted March 6, 2001 Share Posted March 6, 2001 Jim, thanks for the kind words about my books, I'm glad they have been useful. I wish I could tell you something useful about this idea of yours, but it's something I have no experience with. I'm a 34" scale guy, even for my piccolo bass. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassLand Posted March 6, 2001 Share Posted March 6, 2001 Use a Capo on a Bass... ...Go to Jail??? Just kidding, I guess... BL BassLand www.BassLand.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearmike Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 THATS JUST WRONG!!! jk Mike Seriously, what the f*ck with the candles? Where does this candle impulse come from, and in what other profession does it get expressed? -steve albini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 7, 2001 Author Share Posted March 7, 2001 Ow! Oof! (Feign to the right...) Yeah they laughed at Thomas Edison when he was burning all those little pieces of carbon too... OK, any support out there? Try it. It may just become a guilty pleasure. Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 8, 2001 Author Share Posted March 8, 2001 Hi Folks, I'm vindicated! In a Bass Player Magazine back issue, (July/Aug. '95) featuring Paul McCartney, Paul revealed that he often capoed his Rickenbacker to 30" scale (that of his Hofner Violin Bass) on the "Revolver", "Sgt. Pepper" (and maybe) "Magical Mystery Tour" albums. Still interested in more/similar info. Peace. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted March 9, 2001 Share Posted March 9, 2001 That just sounds wrong. You may do it, Paul McCartney may do it, but it's still wrong. -David R. -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted March 9, 2001 Share Posted March 9, 2001 Originally posted by Jim T.: Hi Folks, I'm vindicated! In a Bass Player Magazine back issue, (July/Aug. '95) featuring Paul McCartney, Paul revealed that he often capoed his Rickenbacker to 30" scale (that of his Hofner Violin Bass) on the "Revolver", "Sgt. Pepper" (and maybe) "Magical Mystery Tour" albums. Still interested in more/similar info. Peace. Paul Who? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 9, 2001 Author Share Posted March 9, 2001 Ed, You know.........the CUTE one! Here's another nugget. I spoke with David King (actually e-mail) the wonderful bass builder from Portland, Oregon. HE was the one who asked if I'd tried the OLD TRICK of capoing down to a 32" scale? What was the very first thing out of MY mouth? (sputtering...) I never thought of capoing A BASS!?! Then I thought about it. My wife and I have been a professional concert and festival duo for two decades. We constantly capo our acoustic guitars to easily and quickly create contrary (in a nice way) chordal inversions for our fingerpicked duets. Why NOT capo a bass? ('Cause they'll all laugh at you!'). Another friend who I record with said, "Be yourself. If that's what works best for you to create and express your art, why care what others think". Think of the first slappers, strummers,beboppers on bass." There are a lot of potentialy incredible players and future innovators out there who live for the "bottom" and "the pocket" just as you and I do. They are incredibly frustrated by having to CONSTANTLY switch from upright fingering at the first position to guitar fingering up the neck. Even worse-finding yourself unwantedly thinking and noticing when you mix 'em up in first position-a CONSTANT distraction. I know that it slows my accumulation of skills WAY down. Now, this won't effect basic groove players that much but players that want to play faster, more fluidly, or amaze their friends with Jaco, Matt Garrison lines, AND have shorter than average fingers, NEED an appropriate instrument to progess easily (never really easy is it?). I've been a H.S. and Grade school band director. You wouldn't give a trombone to a student who physically can't handle the size/embouchure issues IF they were obviously much more successful on the trumpet's smaller mouthpiece. Capoing a bass is similar to this "analogy" and thousands of dollars cheaper than having a custom neck-thru exotic (beautiful) new bass created with a short neck that they'll get laughed at for using just as they would have with a $12 capo! Ed, and other music teachers, I'd be curious to see if you see the merit in using the TABOO capo. Try it with a kid and pretend that they are an incredibly talented young adult/old adult bass player who is strugging with the "5 fret stretch". Did what they could do and how quickly they could SUDDENLY learn to do it surprise you? I didn't mean to create such a long thread but it seems like it's been some fun for everyone which is in part-what forums are for! Keep it up but I would really prefer to see this discussed between players after they've tried it in a couple of practice sessions. Or not Cheers! Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted March 9, 2001 Share Posted March 9, 2001 Okay Jim, I'll try it, but let me get it straight. I tune DOWN the bass first right? Then capo UP so I still have my low E? I ain't givin' up my low E man, no way! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 9, 2001 Author Share Posted March 9, 2001 Ed, Yes that's correct. There's no life with no E! (after all E=MC squared right?) Now what do you suppose E stands for? Hmmm... maybe THATS what the "string" theory in particle physics is all about... Jim's gone off the deep end again! Seriously though, thanks for the open mind about the capo thang. I'd be interested to see what you think down the road. Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 10, 2001 Author Share Posted March 10, 2001 Oops! One last but most important point... All of this capo stuff applies MORE for short fingered FRETLESS bassists. Let's face it. Many of us cheat a bit playing between the frets which automatically gives us a shorter scale. (Even stubby me can cope with this but...) there is NO cheating with a fretless. (Yep, mine's lined too Ed.) In addition to the frustration of switching fingering technique between upright (born without ring fingers) and guitar style, a player who switches between fretted and fretless basses must ALWAYS practice/play with their finger spot ON the fret or else their fretless technique sounds hopeless! There is no between the fretlines "shorter scale cheating" available to them. SO I guess the last point I'd like to make before shutting up for awhile is: try this with young or short fingered FRETLESS players as it won't be as much of a "controlled" scientific experiment otherwise. OK. If everyone's tired of this for now, I'll try to bow out until I get some feedback ala the McCartney article or from teachers and players who fool around with the capo and think it's useful to them at least sometimes. Hey if nothing else-it's also cheaper than buying a baritone guitar! This is a wonderful forum by the way and I'm enjoying it tremendously. I've already responded to the bolt on neck through thread just to show that SOME of my opinions are "NORMAL". Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Addicott Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 I doubt I'll be using a capo, unless I become a solo bass performer (which I am a LONG way from being now) and I want to do a piece with a ringing open F#. I guess that's the more obvious use, (which this thread was not really intended to address). For me, the problem with capoing up and tuning down would be that the familiar fret dot markers would then be misleading, and that would drive me a bit crazy. I suppose if I was in the studio, and I REALLY wanted that certain sound, I might give it a try and force myself to deal with it. Much thanks, Jim T, for at least opening my eyes to the possibility. In the meantime, I like to play higher up on the neck for a similar effect. No hardware is required, and the notes are still all where they're "supposed" to be. Of course, with this approach, the strings are thicker and the tension is greater, so it's not QUITE the same thing. Thanks again, Jim, for a very interesting, off-the-beaten-trail thread! (It sounds like the specific effect you're looking for could also be obtainable by building a short-scale instrument with an extremely large headstock. Wouldn't that be a trip!) Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted March 12, 2001 Author Share Posted March 12, 2001 Hi Jeff, Thanks for the response. I generally put my capo (when I do capo) at the fourth fret on my 34" scale Pedulla. This gives me a 28" scale but also preserves the original/relative positions of the inlay dots. I had the same brain dysfunction when I tried a 30" (more common) scale at the third fret with the dots out of position. Of course we're all supposed to not look at our necks while we play right? Also just to clarify a bit, remember that I've detuned prior to capoing so playing up the neck will provide a different pitch than playing at that same position "normally". Another aspect of all this capo crazyness that I haven't mentioned: I once saw a Michael Mannring style soloist use (oh God!) TWO capos at different positions on the neck-one on the treble side and one on the bass side to change quickly on stage to his own unique tuning. HA and you all though I was crazy! Cheers, Jim T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Wise Man Posted March 12, 2001 Share Posted March 12, 2001 Check out http://www.bassculture.de for some fine short-scale fretless basses. The site is only in German, however. This message has been edited by Mr. Wise Man on 03-12-2001 at 08:29 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 15, 2001 Author Share Posted April 15, 2001 OK, it's been over a month. Gentle bump to the top... Have any of you teachers with youngster or short fingered students tried the capo thang? The world wants to know what you thought! comma comma comma comma come-on.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted April 15, 2001 Share Posted April 15, 2001 I've never used a capo on my basses, but I will now, knowing it will disturb some people, and for that reason alone! Jim? Whatever works, that's my motto. And if it bothers some people, all the better!. Please post any other weird ideas you come across. Let's get 'em riled up!!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted April 15, 2001 Share Posted April 15, 2001 What fun! I have thought about using a capo a few times over the years, mostly just to see how people would react, but never did it. Never really had a good reason, personally. I have small hands, and always wanted a Gibson EB3 in my youth, but have gotten used to 34", and stick with a 4-string tuned down to D rather than get a 5. Serious question: I am very fussy about the nut and setup on my basses, and keep the action just as low as I possibly can. One reason I have not actually tried a capo is I think I would have problems with fret buzz on the open strings, and might have to re-set the action higher. Is this a real problem, or am I imagining things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 17, 2001 Author Share Posted April 17, 2001 Hi Ben and r-bocker, it's nice to get some fun feedback again on this subject. Ben, I find that to avoid fret buzz on low action axes, the capo needs to be very tight. Shubbs work well while the non cam action-simple clamp ons don't work as well. (Kysers,etc.) The type with the screw on the bottom also works well. A lighter picking hand touch may be appropriate to lessen or avoid buzzing too. Kinda like the lighter touch to get your low B sounding clean as the thinner strings. If your action is VERY low, you might not be able to use a capo without an action adjustment of some kind. Either truss rod or bridge adjustment. I think that in MOST cases though the tight capo and lighter touch will do the trick. Sometimes a fretted bass will buzz ever so slightly acoustically but sound fine ampliphied with a lighter touch. Experiment...There is NO PROBLEM whatsoever using just about any type of capo and a heavier picking touch on a fretless. As I said earlier, the use of a capo is probably more important when adapting small digits to a fretless because it's easy to cheat between the frets on a 34" scale. More??? Ed, did you give this a try yet? "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Nope, I haven't tried this as I realized that I don't own a capo. With your recommendations, I'll pick one up soon and try it. Since you brought this up though, I notice I play alot on the B string above the 5th fret on my 5 string. I like the sound up there, this is probably the tone you're talking about. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 I have thought about this but tuning down wouuld make the strings floppy, would they not? Well, right now i'm using a short scale bass, and awaiting the arrival of a Squire Stansard Jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 17, 2001 Author Share Posted April 17, 2001 Hi plastic nut, I just walked over to my bass to see and I feel that the string tension remains the same (or very nearly) with the capo at the fourth fret (28" scale preserving the position dot arrangement...) and might even be a little tighter. (remember we've tuned down)This isn't a problem at all in my estimate. Ed, remember - on a fretless any capo should do. Gosh, everybody seems to be making such a simple thing so complicated! Just pick up a "Nike" capo and "just do it!!!" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobT Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif How's the capo thing going? Sounds like an interesting thread. May have to try it. BTW Ben - I have small hands too and I am playing a 5 string (have been for over 10 years now). Right now I have an Ibanez and the string spacing is a little too close for my tastes. I've been toying with the idea of getting another with wider string spacing. I've played a lot of them in the last few months. All kinds of necks too. Tapered, Flat, you name it. All I gotta say is don't give up hope. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Gotta have that Low B RobT Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 18, 2001 Author Share Posted April 18, 2001 Hi Guys, just a clarification... the position dots' relative positions remain "standard" in the 1st position ONLY (I'm sure you've already figured that out!) when capoing at the 4th fret position. (remember this is used on a fretless by me.) I re-read my earlier posts and felt a twinge of info accountability! After the 1st position the "benefit" is that you can't look at the neck (you know... like an expert!) anyway 'cause it'll just mess with yo mind! (That's a good thing!) "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 20, 2001 Author Share Posted April 20, 2001 ED!!! I MISREAD YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION and GOOFED UP on my answer! I'M VERY VERY SORRY. Well, seeing as how you haven't had a capo in your possesion yet.... CAPO AT THE 4TH FRET FOR A 28" SCALE THEN ---TUNE DOWN TO EADG ON A FOUR STRING. (ETC.) I'm too tired after spending 8 hours teaching 3rd graders to figure out if tuning down and THEN capoing amounts to the same pitch! '.) I APOLOGIZE FOR THE CONFUSION. EVERYBODY. JIM T. "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted April 20, 2001 Share Posted April 20, 2001 Hey, no prob, whatever... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman1ovation.net Posted April 23, 2001 Share Posted April 23, 2001 Originally posted by Jim T.: Hi Folks, I'm vindicated! In a Bass Player Magazine back issue, (July/Aug. '95) featuring Paul McCartney, Paul revealed that he often capoed his Rickenbacker to 30" scale (that of his Hofner Violin Bass) on the "Revolver", "Sgt. Pepper" (and maybe) "Magical Mystery Tour" albums. Still interested in more/similar info. Peace. There ya go... some bass players prefer the 30 - 32 inch scale, and since Paul's Hofner had tuning/intonation problems (I read in an interview), it made all the sense to get his neck-through-body Rickenbacker and "convert" it. What I want to know is when someone is going to offer a decent neck-through-body for the short scale. I mean, "Hey, Samick?!" What's it going to bother Samick (to pick a possibility out of the hat) to tool up for a neck-through short scale, give it good hardware, etc. (that is, not consider it a "student" bass), and place it on the block? They supposedly make this huge percentage of all guitars and basses, so statistically they, at least, should go for it. I made the request/suggestion to Carver, and the response was somewhat rude, as if to say short scale basses aren't real, they all "honk" (I think that was the actual word), and as if it was an insult to them to be asked. Never mind that Stanley Clarke likes 'em and that Alembic makes the Stanley Clarke bass. Sure... I think we all know the physics about basses and lengths. I mean, if we could work it, the 20 ft. bass would probably have this amazing tone! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif But the simple fact is that for some time, electric basses were most all 33". Now 34" and 35" and once in a while slightly longer basses are in the game. That extra length is a selling point. But back to those 33" basses... if ALL things are equal (and equal, in this case, means designed to take advantage of the length, from frets to woods to hardware to strings, etc.), the 30" bass can be a killer. The Alembics are 30.75"... I've seen (or heard of) 30", 30.5", 30.75", 31", 31.5" and 32", and it seems to me that players that like that feel should have access to some solid instruments, and perhaps use those capos for the occasional short scale experience, but then leave them capos for the guitar when we actually get the short scale basses we lean towards. Sheeee-ut!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif [soapbox mode: off] This message has been edited by musicman1@ovation.net on 04-23-2001 at 03:45 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim T. Posted April 24, 2001 Author Share Posted April 24, 2001 Riiiiiiiiiiiight Onnnnnnnn! Manufacturer's are you listening? Maybe this forum and Ed's clout at Bass Player Magazine and/or Carvin will finally win the day for us bottom brothers and sisters! What say ye Ed? Wanna go for sainthood? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif "When people hear good music, it makes them homesick for something they never had, and never will have." Edgar Watson Howe "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there" Miles Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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