Recording help?!?

[funkyassbasser]

I am a fairly established live bass player, however I have not had the opportunity to record a studio album with my band until now. We just were able to finish saving the money for our first studio release and I don't know exactly how to record to get the best sound. From what I have read it is best to go through a direct box AND mike the amp and then mix the two tracks together. Any suggestions? Also how about gear. I play live through a Behringer composser to give me a funky tight sound. We play parliament style funk, and I have fairly active playing. Any help would be great. (i.e. mics, placement, EXPERIENCES, etc.)

 

This message has been edited by funkyassbasser on 02-05-2001 at 04:35 PM

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

I usually go with my live setup, only scaled down. Also, any effects need to be added in production not before the board. Just a clean tone works best for me in all the situations I've been in. Also, try putting a mic right in fron of the speaker and then a room mic, on the floor is better, but experiment a little if you have the resources.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, there are a lot of variables involved in giving you a good answer, but yes, mic the amp and direct is a good way to go, but most of the time I just do the DI (direct). Assuming you're going to a good studio with a knowledgeable engineer, they'll no doubt have some tried and true methods for getting a sound. I wouldn't bother bringing your Behringer, a good studio will have much better outboard gear than most people will own. If they have a tube compressor, see if you can claim that for the bass track. Also, depending on what TYPE of sound you're looking for, there are different answers too.

Some basics are, change your strings, make sure the bass is intonated, no buzzes, fresh battery for your preamp (if you have one). Make sure you can hear yourself, playing bass and listening through headphones takes some getting used to, especially if you like to feel the bass. I always try to sit in the control room if it's not too busy in there. I like to monitor through the big speakers. However, sometimes engineers need to mess with things and it can be distracting if they're switching speakers or soloing tracks while you're laying it down. Ask if it's okay with the engineer.

 

If you can be present at the mixdown, you'll be able to fight for your place in the mix, too many times the bass gets buried when the only person from the band mixing is the singer or guitarist!

 

I'm sure we have other opinions out there. Lee, you're an engineer and bassist, what do you say?

[xtian_dup1]

Your engineer probably already knows this, but if you go the mic + direct route, the direct signal will get to the tape (or hard disk) faster than the mic'd signal.

 

If you are using a digital system (like Logic Audio or Cubase) then it really isn't a problem. Just slide the mic'd track until it meshes with the DI'd track.

 

A lot of bands don't think much about the bass, so if you screw something up and want to change it, make sure you say so RIGHT AWAY. In the push to get everything done and within budget, people will ignore you and move on. Especially if you wait to complain!

 

It also takes a while to get the hang of working together in a recording studio. So lay down rough tracks for all the songs first. Then go back and start working on them one-by-one. If you do 7 or 8 songs for your CD, you will notice a BIG difference between the rough track on the first song, and the rough track on the last song... that is simply just you guys getting in the swing of things, and is expected.

 

Good luck, and have fun!!

- Christian

Budapest, Hungary

www.Crunchy-Frog.com

[Lee Flier]

Ed wrote:

 

>>Lee, you're an engineer and bassist, what do you say? <<

 

Well, I'm an engineer and guitar player, I can play bass enough to get by but I would NOT go so far as to call myself a bassist. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif However, as an engineer I've recorded a lot of bassists. Therefore I can categorically say: the most important thing in recording bass is to have a great tone in the first damn place. That's how I am making things very difficult on myself right now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif If you have a lot of live playing experience I'm sure you are probably happy with the tone and setup that you have, so you've got at least half the battle won.

 

I don't know whether you are going to be recording yourself with home equipment, or going into a commercial studio with an engineer. Either way, there are things you can just listen for and experiment with, to see what floats your boat. Lots of people do use the amp/DI combination, but lots just use one or the other too. I personally prefer just an amp, but I'm more of a rock player; I have noticed that funk and jazz dudes like the additional definition provided by combining with a DI or even a DI alone. Don't make up your mind until you've tried them all. Also, some bass amps have a balanced output in the head that allows you to go directly out of the head as well as to the speaker, and you might prefer that, if you are happy with your amp.

 

A few general rules of thumb:

 

1) Smaller amps and/or lower power settings sound better in the studio than large high powered amps. Paradoxically, they actually sound bigger, because you can drive them more.

 

2) Experiment with using a gobo (isolation baffle) a few feet in front of the amp. It shouldn't be too dead but should have proper acoustical treatment. No carpets, blankets, egg cartons or ordinary insulation - if you are making your own gobo just a sheet of plywood with a couple of squares of Auralex foam are sufficient. Blankets or too-dead rooms just produce mud. Rooms that are too "live" or where you are picking up too many reflections cause you to lose the definition of your bass tones.

 

3) For mics, I usually use a reasonably high quality dynamic mic like the Sennheiser 421 or EV RE-20. If you like more high end and are not using a DI, you can also use a good condensor mic very close to the dynamic (to avoid phase issues), combine the signals from the two mics, and use EQ to scoop out most of the frequencies that are covered by the dynamic. Make sure the condensor is one that can handle the sound pressure levels produced by bass amps. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I find that I often prefer this approach to using a combined amp and DI signal because of the latency issues that someone else mentioned, and also because they seem to blend more naturally. It can be hard to get a direct signal to sit well in the mix particularly if it's combined with an amp, although I will say that it's easier if you're recording to analog, which smears the sound just enough to funk it up. Going to digital, I often find that a DI by itself is too squeaky-clean to really dig it.

 

4) Mic placement: move it around until it sounds good. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Real scientific. If you have a single speaker, I find that pointing the mic right into the middle of the cone results in a slightly boomier sound and pointing it slightly toward the edge of the cone gives it more definition. If you have a multi-speaker cabinet, listen individually to each speaker by putting your ear at its level; there is nearly always one speaker that sounds better than the other(s) and you should mic that speaker. In general (although this is not a hard and fast rule), very close micing sounds best for bass - somewhere from 2 to 6 inches off the speaker. If you're using a dynamic mic, you'll notice too that the closer you move the mic the more bottom end boost you'll get. Just have somebody stand out in the recording room and move it around while you sit in the control room, until you like it!

 

5) Recording will put up with less transients than live playing. If you pop a lot with your fingers or you like to slap, you may not like the way it sounds on a recording. Compression helps - use gentle compression for a mic'd amp, and crank it up a bit more for a direct signal - but you may find that if you ease up a bit on the slapping and popping (that is, don't do it as aggressively as you would live), you will actually get more power in the studio because you'll be able to get a hotter signal to tape or disk without all those transients. Also if you normally use roundwound strings you might consider changing to half wounds or flatwounds, if you find that a lot of finger noise is being picked up on tape.

 

6) I second the suggestions to use new strings, make sure your bass is intonated properly, etc. You can get away with a lot live that will not pass muster in the studio! Any tricks you know of to reduce unpleasant overtones will really help.

 

If you have done everything properly you really shouldn't need to EQ anything. If you feel that you need a lot of EQ on a bass you probably could have done better in the recording stage. A notch filter can remove an annoying frequency, but I try not to use any general EQ on bass.

 

Hope that helps!

--Lee

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 02-06-2001 at 11:34 AM

[funkyassbasser]

thanx to all for the great tips!

I will be going to a studio and these are all great suggestions. Lee, i do use compression even when playing live because of the fact that i do a lot of slapping and popping. Do you concur with the previous opinion that it should be handled by the studio and not by me. Am I just really stupid for using a compressor/limiter/gate in my live rig? I really like the way it tightens up and adds definition to my playing. Maybe it's a psychological thing? Also, kind of in relation to Lee's comment, I use the compressor as my direct outs because I don't have any balanced outputs on my head. (HARTKE 2000) Any help here?

[Lee Flier]

No, I don't think you're stupid for using a compressor in your live rig, if you like the sound. That's the object of all of this is for it to sound the way you want it to. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif So, to use a really old cliche in recording, if it sounds good, it IS good.

 

That goes for the studio too. You may or may not get a sound you like better from a studio quality compressor. You should try it, and if you like it better, use it. But you may not, and if you like the sound better straight out of your live rig with a mic or two on it, don't be afraid to tell the engineer you want to go with that. Since this is the first time you're recording, try everything. That's the only way to find out what sounds good with your own rig and your own style. If anything, as an engineer I'd be really happy if somebody's rig sounded so good all you had to do was stick a mic in front of it and go. I certainly wouldn't whine that I didn't get to use my $2500 compressor on it. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Not every engineer feels that way of course, so part of your job is to whop them upside the head if they do something that sounds nasty to you.

 

In general though, having a "real" engineer doing your recording, in a "real" studio, is more likely to help the situation than hurt. A lot of your questions and concerns will probably be cleared up right away because the engineer will know what to do - at least, he or she will have a bag of tricks or two that they absolutely know will work. So the only thing to watch out for is whether they are too locked in to a particular method and are not being flexible if you believe that you can sound better. In that case, just speak up and say you'd like to TRY something else and see if it works. If it doesn't work, you'd be happy to go back to the way the engineer suggested. If it does work - hey, maybe the engineer will have a new trick for the bag.

 

--Lee

[musicman1ovation.net]

Just a quick comment. I have heard people say that the only way to go is to record direct, or to mic an amp, or to record direct AND mic an amp, OR to use either a bass pre or one of the devices the models different preamps, amps, speakers, and effects parameters, and come out direct to the mixer, which is what those devices are made to do anyway.

 

So, my quick comment is this: I've heard some really good and really bad sounding tracks done with any and all of the methods above. However, since it is really going to be a matter of your EARS when you get down to it, I believe the most efficient method; the method most likely to lead you to a great track, is to record on THREE tracks... use ALL the methods simultaneously... (1) direct and dry from the bass (2) place a microphone on the best sounding "live" rig for the room (studio), and (3) get something like a Bass Pod or any of a number of bass pre/speaker emulators, and do direct into the console.

 

Doing that, you now have three sources AFTER the fact of the performance, and you can use your ears to go for what you want. I hear some people talk about purist ways, and hey, sometimes they are right http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif, but it seems to me that no matter what you do, the more ways you utilize on actual tracks, the more possibilities you have.

 

Over some time, you might find that you virtually always use just one or two of those methods, and unless you find yourself wanting to specifically experiment on a track, you might just stick to what will constitute a kind of signature sound for you. But really, when it comes to saying which of all those is inherently best, there is the problem that (1) everyone plays differently, and technique effects bass sound rather profoundly (2) not too many basses are created "equal", and even the same models can sound different. There's no assurance that your Jazz bass will sound like mine, etc., not to mention the actual settings on the bass for volume and tone, which again, make a big difference.

 

So, really, I think you are on the right track to begin with (using two tracks), although I'd go ahead and make it three (or even FOUR) if the tracks exist. They might laugh, but didn't they laugh at the "Drell" (from Houston, TX), who, when asked by Archie Bell to "give us some bass" and "make it funky now", gave 'em some bass? You just KNOW they did! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Well, there ya go!! And a cool rift it was. So, best wishes to you. Your ears will know.

 

Yeah... I know, my "quick comments" are never as quick as I claim. Oops! Sorry. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif

[David R.]

Most of the tone will come from your fingers (or pick, for those pretend bassists http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ), using a DI will get the sound of your fingers and that of the bass, when you mic a cabinet, you are adding the sounds of the amp and speaker. And the mic. None of this is bad, it is just more variables to take into account. If your tone is dependant on your amp, then the engineer needs to know this so he can choose the best mic to put in front of it.

I have not heard very good things about the Behringer Composer, but if you like the sound, then go for it. Just be aware that there may be other compressors that can squish things more musically. When I want to play around with my sound, I would rather take the old Boss octave stompbox to a rehersal room than an Eventide.

 

-David R.

[ricongacharter.net]

just one quick tip, if you use a D.I. make sure it is a good one.

[lrbreez]

I like using a Ampeg SVP Pro preamp. Bass POD is nice too. A good thing to do is to be in the control room when you record and watch the meter(s) of the channel(s) you are going through on the console instead of using a compressor.

Buddy

[tornadobass]

What about recording upright bass in a studio. I'm recording with my blues band and I'd prefer not to use a pickup with the upright. But we're afraid bleed from a mic on upright will mess up the track that way.

 

The plan now is to lay down the initial tracks with electric bass and play the track for upright later, micing the upright while I play along in the studio.

 

Suggestions?

[brianrost]

Originally posted by tornadobass:

What about recording upright bass in a studio. I'm recording with my blues band and I'd prefer not to use a pickup with the upright. But we're afraid bleed from a mic on upright will mess up the track that way.

 

Depends on the final product...is this a real CD or a demo?

 

For demos you're on a tight budget and often in cheesy studios. I'll just DI the URB pickup because it's fast and it works OK though it's obviously not optimal.

 

For a serious CD session a mike is the ONLY way to go. A good studio can give you enough isolation to make it work (how do you suppose Willie Dixon did it?). Some goboes will isolate you sufficiently from the drums. Stuff the guitar and harp amps in iso booths if goboes aren't good enough.

 

Overdubbing only make sense if you guys are following the Steely Dan anal obsessive production method. You did say blues, right? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Here's a hint: mark an X on the floor with tape and place your peg there so that you won't keep moving relative to the mike from take to take http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif

 

 

This message has been edited by brianrost on 02-12-2001 at 04:26 PM

[Ed Friedland]

Typically I use a mic and pickup blend recording the upright. The Fishman BP100 and Mic combo come right out of the Bass Blender into the board. I stand behind a baffle (goboe) and it works fine. The best recorded sound I got on upright happened when I was in an iso booth with hard surfaces. I did the DI from the pickup and played into the corner with a Sony condenser mic aimed down from above.

Let's just hope you don't have to be in the same room as the amps!

[funkyassbasser]

Just an FYI

I recorded all weekend (12 hours sat and sun ... WHEW)

Decided to try a few different techniques that everyone mentioned. I found that I really liked the sound I got direct combined with a boring old sm58 in front of one of my speakers in my old hartke 4x10. I am really proud of the way it all sounded. Per everyone's advice, I planted myself in the room during mixdown. What an eye opening experience! Going back in on 3-10 to finish up some leftovers. Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that all the help was extremely helpful and I would have been completely overwhelmed without all of the help. Especially to Ed and Lee and xtian. Everyone was great. I'm on one of those musical highs right now and I definitely owe it in part to everyone here. Thanx again http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[overhang]

this question is not directly related to the topic, but here it is...My live sound is really bad. We can't hear the D and G strings and the E and A strings sound like a techno-rap synth and they are way too loud. The sound-tech is a singer (you know how those guys feel about the bassists)so he won't do much to correct it other than practically muting the bass. I have tried with a DI and a mic in front of my amp, I have tried different basses, different pedals, differnent PA system, different strings, active and passive basses, etc....The problem will not go away.

 

Hopefully you guys can help me sort out this problem. I'm looking for a sound similar to Dirk Lance (INCUBUS). Any tips on amp EQ, console EQ, use of pedals, etc....would be very appreciated. In terms of equipement, I usually use a Fender BXR 100 amp, a Godin active 4-string bass, a Vintage passive 4-string, and a compressor pedal.

 

Thanks for any advice...