Ed Friedland Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Everyone from beginners to experienced pros goes through the struggle at one point, how do I amplify my upright bass so it sounds GOOD? Any favorite pickup/amp combinations? www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassLand Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Yes Ed, For me it was an quest. My current setup is excellent for me, I have gone thru Shadow, Underwood, and Fishman pickups (not that they are "BAD" pickups, but every bass is different and requires a pickup to match it's particular qualities) and settled on the K&K Sound Bass Master Pro. In the Amplifier department, I used Polytone for the upright and SWR for the electric. I eventually wanted a HiFi upright amp and currently use Euphonic Audio amps (CVL-110) for both basses. I have even recorded the upright using the EA combo (here's a link to samples) http://shandalear.com with great success. My Bass is a plywood instrument made by Johan Rauner and I have been told it sounds like a carved bass. BTW, it was great to meet you at NAMM. BassLand BassLand www.BassLand.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Addicott Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I swear by the David Gage Realist for good acoustic tone. Alas, I've become a bit of a magnetic addict, especially for those situations where you need more cutting power. I have a Biesele unit that has an onboard mixer, so I can add just a dash. Extremely cool. It may be a bit silly to use a huge acoustic instrument to provide a magnetic signal, but it sounds so damn good! Better than any solid-body fretless tone I've encountered, thus far (and it's not "Jaco", either!). My favorite rig is the GK MB-150, used just ever so slightly to bolster the natural sound. When I have to get louder, the other guys seem to prefer it when I use my rack (Alembic tube pre w/ Stewart World 1.2 power amp) through the Euphonic Audio 110. That cab is a bit polite for most electric bass situations, but it works great with the upright. It fills the room more and feeds back less. Jeff Addicott http://www.jeffnet.org/~addicott/bass.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Bassland, is that you Bob? Anyway, I used Polytones for years, and I agree that they sound great. I still use mine sometimes. I just got an Acoustic Image Clarus head which is so awesome for upright (and pretty damn good for electric too). The thing is, it's so audiophile that I now want to look at other pickups. I've been using the Fishman BP100 ever since it came out, and for the last 8-10 years with the mic/blender setup. It has always sounded great. I know that originally Fishman designed the BP100 with the knowledge that most upright players used Polytones. It is well matched to that amp. Now, with the Clarus, I find myself looking for something else. I'm going to get a Rick Turner pickup as soon as I can get my luthier to cut me another bridge, the pickup is installed by cutting notches into the bridge near the strings. Anyone out there have experience with the Turner? Several players I respect have spoken very highly of it. www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassLand Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Ed, Yup, it's me Bob Lee. I have heard that the Realist is great on great sounding basses (read Carved basses). A friend of mine has a 200 year old French bass and uses the Realist and Clarus and the sound is great. My plywood bass does not have a lot of volume to start with but, has improved with the amplified sound from my combination. I would think that a pickup that would make my bass sound better would make an improvement with any bass but that is not necessarily the case. What is your bass? carved or ply? BassLand www.BassLand.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 3, 2001 Author Share Posted February 3, 2001 Bob, My bass is a post-war Juzek carved axe. It's a solid bass, no cracks, and it has sounded great at times, though lately it's bugging me. It's lost some volume and bottom and it's pissing me off! That's partly why I'm looking at pickups, even though the main problem is the bass itself. The Realist is a great sounding pickup, but it probably wouldn't make a cheaper bass sound better. Typically a pickup will either make something sound different than it does, or accurately reproduce what's there. I've found that Underwoods tend to make every bass sound the same, which is good if you have a plywood. The Realist will bring out the instruments' natural quality which may not be desirable on a cheaper instrument. www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil-E-Phil Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Ed, Your bass may need some sound post work. I know someone that had a crack in the bass fixed in addition to having an adjustable bridge added over at Kolsteins about a year ago. He just took the bass back for an adjustment(should have went back 6 months ago) and his bass sounds amazing. I'm sure David Gage can do similiar stuff. Phil Phil Smith - Creator of the iGigBook iPad/Android App Over 1300 Jazz Chord Charts That You Can Transpose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricongacharter.net Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 I'm using a Demeter tube pre with various power amps (depending on the gig) for everything now, upright, baby bass and fretless electric it sounds great and is also great in the studio right into the board (its alao nice not to have to haul a heavy rig when going to record) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 4, 2001 Author Share Posted February 4, 2001 Phil, Yeah, my bass definitely needs some adjustment. Gage and Kolstein are both very well respected bass repair guys in NY, when I lived there I would bring my bass to David, now I bring it to a guy in Tucson, Tom Bielejec. He's a good repair man, and a friend, I just have to get off my butt and bring it to him. There are no visible cracks, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oystein Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by Ed Friedland: Everyone from beginners to experienced pros goes through the struggle at one point, how do I amplify my upright bass so it sounds GOOD? Any favorite pickup/amp combinations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oystein Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 First of all, thanks for a great forum so far. On my Carved 7/8 Wilfer I have achieved a satisfiying tone mixing a Realist and Fishman pickup together using a Fishman Pocket Blender before going to an Acoustic Image Contra amp. I add just a little bit of the Fishman to add a little bite to the sound to cut through better. The Realist direct into the Acoustic Image sounded OK but didn't seem to cut through on my bass. BTW, my Fishman is not mounted on the bridge but clipped onto the top by th f-holes. It sounds warmer mounted that way and I avoid the clips acting as a mute on my bass. Oystein ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 7, 2001 Author Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by oystein: First of all, thanks for a great forum so far. On my Carved 7/8 Wilfer I have achieved a satisfiying tone mixing a Realist and Fishman pickup together using a Fishman Pocket Blender before going to an Acoustic Image Contra amp. I add just a little bit of the Fishman to add a little bite to the sound to cut through better. The Realist direct into the Acoustic Image sounded OK but didn't seem to cut through on my bass. BTW, my Fishman is not mounted on the bridge but clipped onto the top by th f-holes. It sounds warmer mounted that way and I avoid the clips acting as a mute on my bass. Wow! I've never heard of that, clipping the Fishamn to the top! I'm intrigued. Did you have to get different clips, or do they fit? My top is kind of heavy and I don't think the clamps would fit. My understanding is the Fishman needs to be flush mounted on the bridge surface, is there a flat spot near the F-hole to do this? I'd love to try this, I'll see if I can do it on my own, but I'd be curious to know more specifics of this. Thanks, glad you're digging the forum, I am too! Oystein www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oystein Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Originally posted by Ed Friedland: My original clips fitted the top of my bass so I guess I was lucky. I had to experiment a little to find a place the pickup could be flush mounted on the top. I got this idea from the great bluegrass player Mark Schatzs instruction video. Mounting it that way make the pickup less resistant to feedback but the improvement in sound is significant. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 10, 2001 Author Share Posted February 10, 2001 Oystein, I tried your trick withthe Fishman on the top, it did fit okay, but I wasn't too happy with the results, it made my D string very boomy. I guess it was picking up that resonant frequecy. I could hear a distinct difference in the tone though, it reminded me more of the Realist in a way. Well, for now it's back on the bridge. My repair guy messed with it a bit and the bass is sounding a little better. I put an old bridge on because I just sent my current bridge to Rick Turner to install his pickup. I'm very excited to try that! As a matter of fact I invited Rick to pop in so keep your eyes open for him, he's a great source of information and a very nice guy. www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I've been using an ATpro35 omni mic blended with a Schertler pick-up thru 2 channels of a Walter Woods 375W amp with a Bag-End 2x10. My bass is a 160 year old Italian bass that has a beautiful sound, the bass has been rebuilt & tweaked by my good friend Chuck Traeger, who taught both David Gage & Bill Merchant in NYC back when they were pups. There are days when I love this set-up & days when I hate it depending on the volume I have to play at. The louder I have to get, the less it sounds like my bass. If the music's happening I don't mind as much. My favorite situations are with piano & guitar trios ..... then I can just enhance the natural sound w/ the mic & it's sounds awesome. Definitely a labor of love. Great thread BTW, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Tony, I didn't know Chuck was still around and working on basses. I remember going to his shop on Christopher Street way back when Bill, David (and myself) were just "pups". Always got interesting looks walking down Christopher St with an upright. I've seen the ATA stuff, but haven't had a chance to try one. Looks good, expensive, but great sound is worth it. High volume is always a problem. That's why I always refuse to bring the upright to blues or "swing" gigs. They want the "look". To hell with that! I'm not going to compete with loud guitar players with my upright. Many guys use the Pierre's String Charger for thee gigs, the magnetic thing that mounts at the end of the fingerboard. Any fans of that pickup out there? ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianrost Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Originally posted by Ed Friedland: Many guys use the Pierre's String Charger for thee gigs, the magnetic thing that mounts at the end of the fingerboard. Any fans of that pickup out there? Guilty as charged. The String Charger does have it's charms. On my ply basses, notes above D on the G string don't amplify well with the piezo pickups I use (Realist and Bass Max) but the mag pickup is better balanced across all registers and gets a Ron Carter like growl up there that's pretty cool. The pitch of the notes is also clearer, so bandmates can hear me more easily in bad rooms. The lower register sounds a little thin, so I always mix it with the piezo (I use a 2 channel K&K preamp), I never use it by itself unless it's a nightmare feedback situation. As long as you keep open strings damped you can get screaming volumes, since the top vibrations don't get picked up. Because of the more "electric" tone, it also works well with almost any bass amp and speaker cabinet you like. I did an outdoor festival last summer cranked through an SVT stack which was a lot of fun if a bit surreal. The biggest drawback is the price, which is about $250...more than any of the common piezos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bspangleyahoo.com Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Have any of you guys tried the K&K Bass Max, which fits wedged in the bass wing of the bridge, or the K&K Big Double Twin, which tapes or glues near the strings on the bridge? I'm using the Fishman which I've had since they first came out, in other words, 17 or 18 years. It uses an RCA to 1/4 cable, believe it or not. Would the K&K's be an improvement as they claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianrost Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 bspangle, I have a Bass Max. I found on MY bass the Fishman was too bright sounding. The Bass Max has a deeper tone to it. Depending on the tone of the Fishman on YOUR bass you may not want a darker sounding pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassLand Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Hi Guys, I just changed from the K&K Sound BassMaster Pro with 3 bridge surface mount transducer and the single wing mounted element, to the new model (Double Big Twin) with 4 surface mounted transducers and the wing element (Bass Max). The two systems come with the same outboard preamp to blend the two sets of elements and add eq. I definately like the system as it is now with a trandsucer for each string (4). There is just a bit more presence on my bass. Opps, almost forgot the link http://www.kksound.com/bassmasterpro.html BL PS. Bob Gollihur is a dealer This message has been edited by BassLand on 03-01-2001 at 02:13 AM BassLand www.BassLand.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted April 21, 2001 Author Share Posted April 21, 2001 I finally played a few gigs with the Rick Turner UB1 pickup on my upright. I really like it! It's very different than the Fishman I've used for 21 years. I have the Turner wired with a Crown PG200 mic to a stereo output and run it through my Fishman Blender. The pickup is VERY articulate. It makes it easier to play fast lines and solos. It just speaks instantly. It has great definition and a warm, rounded bottom end. It's not clacky or brittle sounding. There is some high end prescence that helps cut through in a rhythm section. It's a pretty hot pickup, so it works best with a 10 meg ohm input. I had to back the trim control on the Blender all the way back to avoid break up. The good thing about the hot output is the increased S/N ratio. It blends well with the mic, but I've used it without it too. It definitely sounds like a pickup, but then again so do Fishmans, Underwoods, etc. They all have a distinct sound, and this one is no exception. In the upper register, the response is very even across all the strings. Thumb position is great, the E string doesn't jump out like it used to, it responds just like the other strings. I haven't recorded with it yet, but I've done a few gigs including one fairly large jazz show at an outdoor venue. The soundman has been working with me there for 6 years and he noticed a big improvement in my sound out in the audience. It was fun playing on the Turner, it made my bass sound like a new (better) instrument. All the articulation I used to have to sweat for just jumps out now. I can play a little lighter and save my energy. Right now, Rick is the only one that can install it. It's 4 piezo elements cut directly into the bridge. The slots are a specific angle and depth, so until he trains other people, you have to send him a bridge that's been cut to match your bass. The pickup is $180 installed. Considering the going rate for some of the other high end pickups out there, I think it's very reasonable. You can contact him online at www.renaissanceguitars.com ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Turner Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Thanks, Ed. I started development on the pickup about six or seven years ago working with Brian Bromberg and Bunny Brunel in LA. I was a bit nervous about it working for other types of players....high action, gut strings, and all that, but then I did one for Larry Taylor (ex Canned Heat, current Tom Waits) who couldn't be a different type of player, and it worked great for him. The downside of the system is that I have to install the pickups in a fitted bridge; this will never be an "over the counter" item in music stores. But, that's what I feel it takes to do the job correctly. It is a very invasive procedure.....do not ask me to do this on a precious vintage bridge! But I have done enough of these to feel confident in having people send me bridges; I don't need your whole bass. The string to string voicing is coming out very even, and Ed pretty much nails what my sonic design goals were for this pickup. I did learn along the way than many other systems seem to emphasize the resonant frequency of the bridge itself....there's always this weird kind of "Tock, tock, tock" sound superimposed on the sound of the bass. Acoustically, that annoyance is filtered out by the bass itself, but when you put a pickup on or under the bridge, it becomes something much too obvious. The other quality I don't like about most other systems I hear is that "bottom of the well" quality...a lack of tonal center and presence in that important "kick you in the chest" tonal range. Another challenge I took on was to make the pickup equally sensitive to both pizzicato and arco. That's the reason for the precicely angled slots I cut into the bridge into which are pressed the piezo elements. The depth of the slots is also graduated, based on experiments with voicing. Most people have not experienced the low frequency potential of piezo pickups, but if the geometry and electronic interfaces are done correctly, you can go way sub-sonic with peizos. For me, the exploration of these factors has been an incredible journey. I'm happy to hear it works! Rick Turner rturner466@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted April 23, 2001 Author Share Posted April 23, 2001 Welcome Rick! Yeah, I like this pickup. I tend to be somewhat in the same mold as Bunny and Brian, articulated solos etc. but I also like to dig in and grind it out. The UB1 does that great too. It has a nice growl. I used it tonight in a less than perfect acoustical environment and it helped me hear myself better. Yours is not the only pickup that requires special installation, the Barbera also has to be factory installed. Hey, as long as you have another bridge to use while the pickup is being installed it's no big deal. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenLoy Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Hmm, Turner's pickup sounds similar to Rich Barbera's system that I have on my Messenger Electric Upright. It's a great sounding pickup, when it works...unfortunately mine hasn't been. I've been encountering a lot of trouble with string-to-string balance particularly with the D string (weak!), so I took it back to Rich and he tinkered with it for a while. When I got it back, the D string was fine but now the E string was weak (?). I was too busy gigging to bring it back and now I'm not sure if I should spend any more money or just get another pickup... Anyone else have any problems with the Barbera? I love the sound...I just can't get it to work right. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted April 26, 2001 Author Share Posted April 26, 2001 Not having played one, I can't compare the Turner to the Barbera soundwise. The relative string balance can be adjusted on the Turner by the depth of the slot, and the fit. My G was a little quieter than the other strings when I first tried the Turner. The element was a bit looser in the slot than the others. I flattened out a piece of Balsa wood for a shim and had my luthier cut the slot 1/8" deeper and it's fine now. I don't know how youwould adjust a Barbera. So far the Turner is working perfectly, I wouldn't expect any problems as it's a fairly simple device. If you can get another bridge cut for your bass, I say give it a try, I bet you'll like it. ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Turner Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 Another of my design goals was to provide a degree of mechanical adjustability. Ed is correct, the static pressure on the pickup can be tweaked with very thin shims and also by deepening the slots, which affects how flexible the piece of bridge is which sits between string and pickup. I've considered a four channel mixer/preamp, but that gets too complicated electronically. I'm more the "fix it at the source" than a "fix it in the mix" type. My system is pretty bare naked with no attempts to make it "pretty". Every time I've tried to make it look slicker, it lost sonic quality. So I said, "Screw it; it is what it is." I'm after performance here, and that is more important than a slick product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 8, 2001 Author Share Posted May 8, 2001 Last night I did a gig with Wycliffe Gordon, a trombonist that plays with Wynton Marsalis' Septet and the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. First off, this guy is phenomenal! I've never heard such command of the axe before, his range, expression, melodic concept, tone, humor, breadth and sheer chops were astounding! I used my Rick Turner pickup again on my upright and once again...I have to rave about it. The weather had lowered my action down quite a bit. I usually raise it when it gets that low because the bass loses it's projection. But during the soundcheck, I left it that way as an experiment. I found that the bass spoke just as well with the strings down. It was punchy and clear and definitely carried the band. I left the action alone. During the show we did "Cottontail" a rhythm changes tune in Ab at just the right tempo for me to dig into some double-time soloing. I was amazed how easy it was for me to play this way, the bass felt effortless and the sound was so detailed, every note I played came out full and articulated. I never could pull that off with my old setup. The pickup resonds even when playing very lightly, it's a big difference from the old-school mentality of "Dig In Like A Man" to get the sound. I could get used to that! ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Turner Posted June 1, 2001 Share Posted June 1, 2001 I will be raising the price on the UB-1 pickup system in July; I haven't done a price increase in three or four years, and costs have caught up with me. It will be going from $20.00 per string to $25.00 and the installation will go from $100.00 to $120.00. That's the bad news. The good news is that Bass Station participants can get the old price for the remainder of 2001 by just telling me that this is where you heard about it. Thanks! Rick Turner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted June 1, 2001 Author Share Posted June 1, 2001 Well, that's the nature of things, life gets more expensive everyday. It's still a good price when you compare it to the other pickups available, and thanks for making the offer to cut Bass Station members the old price for the rest of the year! ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calfee Jones Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 Hi all. Thanks for this topic - it is just what I was looking for. I have one of those situations that you hate Ed, we are using an upright on a loud stage. And as you know, feedback is a problem. We are currently using a fishman on the bridge. We would like to retain as much of the upright sound as possible (it's not just for the looks ;-). Do any of you guys have any suggestions? - Thanks... - Calfee Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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