Made in China...

[DC]

I was just curious as to the attitudes you people have concerning products made in China. I mean do you feel that by buying products made there, you are supporting State sponsored slave labor? I just bought a C1 mic (that I absolutely love) and was at first reluctant to try it because a little voice seems to tell me that I'm taking better paying jobs away from Westerner's. But then you walk through your house and start looking on the bottom of stuff and start finding 'made in China' on loads of products. 'Specially stuff you got dirt cheap. Most Wall Mart products? Is it a sin? Does the huge trade imbalance hurt Americans? I may start to be more aware in my future purchases, but there's no way I'd ever part with my C1. It smokes a mic I was about to buy that costs four times it's price.

[JingleJungle]

Whoa bro'...you got me there!!! I've never heard this C1 mic... but I do remember an article that was published long ago on BusinessWeek re. the chinese "labor camps" where they have the inmates build/produce the goodies that we buy for cheap. One of the pictures depicted naked inmates working in a tanning vat. Thank you...that was enough!! I do indeed mind if what I'm buying comes from China...I just won't buy it! Do spare a moment to reflect on the fact that while it's true that on one side apparently we're richer as the goods we're buying cost less, on the other side our (western) economy suffers as a whole for all the layoffs that ensue from the closing of manufacturing facilities coupled with the deflationary effect of price dumping. So, as you see, the argument against buying too many goods from China /Indonesia et al. makes as much sense from a financial point view as much as from the humanitarian one...unless you're Mr. WalMart /KMart /JC Penney / Land's End (or one of their stockholders). My 2 swiss francs' worth... Paul

[mwisniewski]

The sentiment is nice, but randomly boycotting anything defeats the purpose of a boycott. How do you know who you're really affecting? How do you know you're not hurting people instead of helping them? What if it's actually an honest business that finally got out from under the yoke of the Communist regime? How do you know there isn't a family out there who is hoping somebody buys that microphone so that they can eat? What about the the people who get paid to export and distribute the microphone or whatever product to different parts of the world, what happens to them if you boycott stuff "Made In China". Made in China only tells you ... that it was made in China, find out if it came from some of the freer economic zones like Shanghai. Or did it come from some sweat house factory closer to Mongolia or Tibet? Find out more about the company you bought it from, then come back and tell us what you found out. Whatever you do, don't just randomly boycott a whole country because you want to feel like you're saving the world.

[Bonafide]

[quote]Originally posted by JingleJungle: [b]Whoa bro'...you got me there!!! I do indeed mind if what I'm buying comes from China...I just won't buy it Paul[/b][/quote] Hey Paul, No flame but just curious. Where was the computer you are typing on made, or it's components for that matter? You most likley buy/use products made from China without even knowing it. GUARANTEED you are using chinese components if you are using ANY dsp's. Cheers.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by DC: [b]I was just curious as to the attitudes you people have concerning products made in China. I mean do you feel that by buying products made there, you are supporting State sponsored slave labor? [/b][/quote] No, my government - the U.S.A. - has allowed Big Business to sponsor slave labor. There was a time, long ago, when I was.. not *naively* idealistic, but not the cynic I unfortunately am today. My attitude was "we should all be consistent with the moral beliefs our country has traditionally espoused". Problem is, that country doesn't exist anymore. You're delusional or uninformed if you think otherwise. You're not going to be able to change it; the NWO has won. In which case, I now have to take the pragmatic side of "what good can come of this system that has been created?". Yeah, there's slave labor practices in China. Yeah, the U.S. is losing out dealing with the Chinese. But it's impossible to avoid. I've watched the textile mills close in my town, to see the "Everything Here Made in the U.S.A." sticker on the floor in Walmart get replaced with a big non-descript smiley face. That's not going to be reversed. [i] The days of physically-manifested revolution are over in the 1st World.[/i] Boycotting won't accomplish anything, rioting, demonstrating - to the corporate entity that's invisible. THE UPSIDE China will be the largest economic power soon, if not already. It's in our best interest - we who are in the westernized world - to hope that it is a China with ideals of freedom. We can't do that by proxy. That is to say, activity we do here is *never* going to have long-reaching effects. What brought the Soviet Union into the Modern World wasn't Ronald Reagan. It was the *IDEA* of freedom. More specifically, it was the westernized, tacky, mass-marketed and packaged version of it. The Soviets couldn't stop it, couldn't contain it. As a cultural virus, "Amerikan" reigns supreme. While I in part can't blame France for wanting their culture shielded from the onslaught of Amerikanization, it's that very phenomenon that will end up making China a better place. Because China is broke. The old regime does not have the answers. If allowed to continue as things are now, at some point in the future they'll quite likely be pushed to the wall. The world does not want that to happen, ever. So, the way I look at it is that anything that allows a little bit of Amerikanization into China - that's a good thing. Somewhere there's a bunch of Chinese in a room busy making web pages for Chinese export companies. *They* know on a daily basis what life is like outside of their world. Somewhere there's a guy that has to deal with all the companies those Chinese mic-clone companies sell to; his daily life is intertwined with the Western World. The families of these people no doubt hear tales about the way things are here. Maybe they have unrestricted internet access; maybe they get the latest Madonna cd, or video tapes of Who Wants to be a Millionaire, or some such. The point is, there needs to be a revolution in China - but one of a sociological nature. The more China becomes Amerikinized, or just exposed to the concept - the *further they are away from the rusty racket their old-school communist leaders still prop up*. Slowly, their military will have more western sympathizers. Slowly they'll have more westernized habits in food, language and culture. Slowly, they'll *be* westernized. One day their leaders will sit in a room and admit freely, aloud - "we're living as a ghost". At which point the viewpoint of China's leaders won't be "Us/Them", but "The World"; which is effectively how modern global leaders *have* to think now. This is ultimately the goal of the One Worlders, if you read the reports and essays they write in journals like _Foreign Policy_ and so forth (in which the Powers That Be are curiously more candid than they are in the "public eye"). I used to be resistant to this notion, under the grounds that it usurped the moral ground the U.S. pretended to establish. That having been completly and utterly destroyed by our leaders of the past 20 years, that argument is no longer valid. In which case, the more haste applied to the process of integration hopefully the more influence the vestiges of "Old America" will remain in the system. Fighting it at this point is counter productive and possibly dangerous. .. and you thought you were just talking about a microphone.... ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[dansouth]

Child/slave labor is a huge problem, but it's not limited to China. The number of sweatshops in the good ol' USA is staggering. Unfortunately, you can't just storm the places and close them down. The ACLU would become very upset about interfering with the owner's liberties, right to privacy, etc. I was listening the BBC World News (the only news I trust) one night about two months ago, and they mentioned that the United Nations ranks all nations on human rights abuses. Amazingly, China and the United States have the same ranking. Something to think about. Clothing is probably more of a problem than specialized music production gear. Aany garment sold at Walmart is almost guaranteed to have been manufactured by some poor unfortunate child, usually a girl under the age of 18, who works seven days a week in horrible conditions for anywhere from four to thirty cents an hour depending on the country. Ninety percent of the clothing and shoes sold in America is made this way. I don't think I'd worry too much about the C1, but the garment industry needs someone to stick a grenade up its ass. I would gladly pay more if I knew that the makers of my clothing were paid well and treated fairly. Would you?

[dansouth]

FYI - The current issue of 'The Economist' (news magazine) features a cover article on this topic.

[Curve Dominant]

[quote][b]I've never heard this C1 mic... but I do remember an article that was published long ago on BusinessWeek re. the chinese "labor camps" where they have the inmates build/produce the goodies that we buy for cheap. One of the pictures depicted naked inmates working in a tanning vat.[/b][/quote] I cannot imagine tanning vats full of naked Chinamen being any where near the production of the Chinese-built large-diaphram mic that I have been using to track vocals with this evening. I did, however, put lettuce on my sandwich today, wondering if illegal low-wage Mexican migrant labor had anything to do with that lettuce getting harvested. During the cold war, there were trade restrictions placed on China applying to hi-tech electronics. But the Chinese, like everyone else in the world, needed good microphones. So they created a state-funded research lab that reverse-engineered Neumann's, AKG's, Shure's, etc., and they did a damn good job of it, hence, the Chinese-built microphone. Do I feel guilty using a Chinese mic? Well, I'm hoping to make rent next month; on the other hand, I seriously cannot fathom the possibility that a Neumann engineer is in a state of panic over where his child's next bowl of rice will come from. You have to shake your head in wonder when someone says something like, "Don't you feel bad that you're taking a Westerner's job away?" As if Easterners don't deserve to have jobs, or feed their families. My friends Kenny Chiem, Hue Lu and Lac Chou recently visited their homelands - China, Viet Nam, and Hong Kong - and sent me postcards and emails as they went along. It was wonderful, seeing and reading of their adventures and discoveries; of their reconnecting with their family and friends; of their observances of the changes that Asia is going through. I work with these guys at a luxury hotel here in Philly, and they are cultivated, intelligent, professional men, and we work extremely well together. On our "down-time," we discuss current events, politics, economics, girls, the arts and culture, and they are very astute and aware of modern times. I have learned a lot over the years from my Asian friends, so much so that I cannot imagine lacking the wisdom they have shared with me. I'll sing into a Chinese-built microphone any day. YMMV. E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[rold]

I will not willingly and knowingly buy products made in a country with a culture that regards life and well-being as expendable. When the Chinese stop killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs, when they stop ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes, and when they start showing respect for anything not associated with their financial and political interests, I will reconsider. Harold This message has been edited by rold on 08-27-2001 at 04:34 AM

[AEW]

The biggest problem you have owning stuff made in china is when you go to sell it or trade in on some new gear. It's worth zit. Nick

[Jose Cobelas]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]I will not willingly and knowingly buy products made in a country with a culture that regards life and well-being as expendable. When the Chinese stop killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs, when they stop ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes, and when they start showing respect for anything not associated with their financial and political interests, I will reconsider. Harold This message has been edited by rold on 08-27-2001 at 04:34 AM [/b][/quote] mmmmm...killing human beings...financial and political interests...sounds very close to the good ol´ USA, doesn´t it? And speaking of the Chinese, how many Chinese workers died building the railroads in the USA? JoseC.

[rold]

Being a Canadian, I am no great fan of the US either, Jose. But I'll give it this: for the most part, you can practise your religion and culture without fear of torture and death by law.

[Jose Cobelas]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]Being a Canadian, I am no great fan of the US either, Jose. But I'll give it this: for the most part, you can practise your religion and culture without fear of torture and death by law.[/b][/quote] I did not mean to attack the USA, specifically. I just wanted to remind that most industrialized countries have a recent past (present?) very similar to that of today´s China. Calls to boycott for "humanitarian" reasons too often sound like badly disguised protectionism. Best, JoseC.

[miroslav]

If you're just starting to wake up to all the "Made in China" stuff...you're too late, it's a done deal. Just like all the "Made in Japan" stuff that flooded the USA back in the 70's 80's...now it's time for China to make it's "dollar" off American citizens. Slick Bill was instrumental in "looking the other way" and now "Big Business" has taken over. Personally though,...I don't feel that just because a Chinese person made a component it's automatically inferior...that's just being stupid and a bigot. Americans said the same thing about all the Japanese stuff too, but now....oooohhhh, it's a Sony Trinitron, or an Oxford... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This "slave labor" issue has been around for a very long time and in many other countries that the USA buys/imports goods from. Don't just jump on a boycott wagon because it "appears" to be the right thing to do...get ALL the facts before you pick a side.

[Dylan]

Why is it that everyone assumes that just because something is manufactured in China that it was done under slave-labor conditions? I highly doubt that the factories that are building Studio Projects, ADK, Marshall, etc are done so under extreme conditions. But since I've never been their myself (have any of you?), I really can't comment on the conditions or wages being offered there. It just seems silly to me to make these assumptions when most likely none of us will ever have the opportunity to visit these manufacturing plants ourselves. BTW, there is an interesting article on this topic at http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/CF2A0C54CEECE33886256A80000F9319 as well. -Dylan

[Anderton]

The real problem is trying to seek black and white answers in a polychromatic world. These posts give just a hint of the various contradictions and dilemmas that come into play. It would be good for China to be part of the world community. But does the world community deal with minimizing, say, pollution, or just maximizing the output of goods? The relationship between the US and China is very convoluted. I think it's fair to say there is a great deal of mistrust between the two countries from a political standpoing; the downed spy plance, and recurring differences overe Taiwain, underscore that. Yet American corporations see a HUGE untapped market of billions of people...if only they could raise their standard of living, they could consume jeans and Coca-Cola like crazy. So we raise their standard of living by having a huge trade imbalance. The Chinese like the cash flow, as it papers over economic problems with roots that go back decades, and keeps people more content and docile. The US sees it as an investment. China is responsible for serious human rights violations on numerous levels, perhaps the most egregious being Tibet. They are trying to exert discipline on a society that is no longer as manipulatable as it once was. Trying to put limits on the internet, for example, is very difficult (just ask the people trying to keep porn spam out of AOL). So I don't think there is an answer. Your purchase of a C1 may do any of the following: * Bring China into a community of nations * Encourage them to be more repressive because the general population is better off, and therefore less inclined to protest * Feed the total disregard for intellectual property that's out of control in China * Bring up the standard of living for decent citizens who would have a hard time making ends meet otherwise * Help finance an invasion of Taiwan that could bring China and the US to the brink of all-out war (or perhaps even initiate a major conflict) We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what's going to happen with China's leadership, which is known for radical twists and turns. We don't know whether the US will become more protectionist. I think our overriding concern right now should be to right the wrongs in the US, because we live here and can do a lot more about it than we can by buying/not buying Chinese goods. Once we have this place perfected, then we can start broadening our scope. As to your original question...just the act of provoking this kind of discussion means that your purchase had some merit. But there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this question.

[Curve Dominant]

[quote][b]* Help finance an invasion of Taiwan that could bring China and the US to the brink of all-out war (or perhaps even initiate a major conflict)[/b][/quote] Craig, with some 20,000 or so Taiwan-owned factories and businesses operating in mainland China, we can pretty much rule out that scenario. An interesting effect of globalization is that now, the cost of war goes way, way beyond bodies and bullets. Warfare is now economically prohibitive, especially between two countries who's economies are so inextricably linked, such as China and Taiwan. [quote][b]I will not willingly and knowingly buy products made in a country with a culture that regards life and well-being as expendable. When the Chinese stop killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs, when they stop ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes, and when they start showing respect for anything not associated with their financial and political interests, I will reconsider. Harold[/b][/quote] This sort of attitude is Archie Bunkerism in reverse: racist, ignorant, judgemental generalizing of an entire nation of people with one broad brush of half-baked self-righteous liberal dogma. Do you [i]know[/i] any Chinese people, Harold? Do you routinely see Chinese people "killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs" every time you walk down the street in your community? Do you have Chinese neighbors who are "ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes" in their back yards every weekend? Somewhere along the line in your quest to appear as Ghandi, Harold, you missed the mark and came much closer to Rush Limbaugh. E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b] This sort of attitude is Archie Bunkerism in reverse: racist, ignorant, judgemental generalizing of an entire nation of people with one broad brush of half-baked self-righteous liberal dogma. Do you [i]know[/i] any Chinese people, Harold? Do you routinely see Chinese people "killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs" every time you walk down the street in your community? Do you have Chinese neighbors who are "ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes" in their back yards every weekend? Somewhere along the line in your quest to appear as Ghandi, Harold, you missed the mark and came much closer to Rush Limbaugh. E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote] Eric, you can not say this, especially not to Harold, who is one of the most solidair guys on these forums as far as I know. Peace.

[rold]

Thank you, Sign - appreciate the kudos.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b] This sort of attitude is Archie Bunkerism in reverse: racist, ignorant, judgemental generalizing of an entire nation of people with one broad brush of half-baked self-righteous liberal dogma. Do you know any Chinese people, Harold? Do you routinely see Chinese people "killing and torturing human beings over their religious and political beliefs" every time you walk down the street in your community? Do you have Chinese neighbors who are "ripping organs out of living animals for unproven medicinal purposes" in their back yards every weekend? Somewhere along the line in your quest to appear as Ghandi, Harold, you missed the mark and came much closer to Rush Limbaugh. [/b][/quote] Well Eric, that was quite a statement, wasn't it?. FYI, I just moved here from Vancouver. In a lot of places in Van, the Chinese to non-Chinese population is as high as 9:1. I have lived for years around these people, and I have a few friends that are Chinese as well. My main beef is with the Chinese communist government, not so much the individuals. With the government, I absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly, infinitely HATE the way they treat human beings. Look back through history and you'll see the slaughtering of THE most peaceful people on earth, the Buddhists, you the have Tiannamen (sp?) Square incident where thousands of students where slaughtered under government orders for a protest, and today you see the government detaining Falun Gong members for nothing but their religious beliefs, putting them in labour camps, and in some cases killing them. Shit, if you get caught with an incense burner in Tibet, you're going to jail. This is sick stuff, to say the least. There are, however, aspects of the culture too that piss me right off. One of them is the use of bear bladders in making certain medicines. In order for the medicine to be useful, the bladder has to be taken out of a living bear. No painkillers. I watched a Discovery channel show on this with some hidden video footage of a bear hunt for this purpose. They'd track down the bear, shoot it in a place where it would disable the bear but not kill it, release their dogs on the bear, the dogs would tear the bear apart (I wish you would've HEARD these bears screaming), and when the animal is almost dead, they would rip the bladder out. In the hunts that this show had footage of, they would then leave the bear to die on its own. Another part of the program talked about how in China, they actually raise bears in vertical cages the size of an adult bear's chest. The bears are raised in these cages until adulthood, at which point the bladders are torn out, and the bears are disposed of. Can you imagine being raised till adulthood in a cage where you have NO movement whatsoever and having an organ torn out after years of this? Sick shit, man. BTW - the show featured a Chinese man who's entire purpose in life was to expose these injustices in hope of changing that part of their culture so as to eliminate the inevitable hate for the Chinese way of life. With a hidden camera, he went through a half dozen Vancouver stores to show how readily available some of these products are. In EVERY store he went to, they had products made from bear bladders just stocked on the shelf. He also mentioned the majority of these products come from poached Canadian bears (last count if I remember correctly was over 1000 bears a year), and some were imported. I do NOT hate Chinese people for being Chinese. I hate their government, and disagree with certain aspects of the culture. The Chinese friends I do have say they hate these even more than I. You see what I'm saying? Does this sound like "racist, ignorant, judgemental generalizing of an entire nation of people with one broad brush of half-baked self-righteous liberal dogma" to you? This message has been edited by rold on 08-27-2001 at 06:50 PM

[Dylan]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]Being a Canadian, I am no great fan of the US either, Jose. But I'll give it this: for the most part, you can practise your religion and culture without fear of torture and death by law.[/b][/quote] So is it safe so say that all Canadians are not fond of the US for some reason or another? Care to clarify? I'm just curious, and am not looking to start a flame war. -Dylan

[AmadMozart]

[quote]Originally posted by Dylan Walters: [b]Why is it that everyone assumes that just because something is manufactured in China that it was done under slave-labor conditions? I highly doubt that the factories that are building Studio Projects, ADK, Marshall, etc are done so under extreme conditions. But since I've never been their myself (have any of you?), I really can't comment on the conditions or wages being offered there. It just seems silly to me to make these assumptions when most likely none of us will ever have the opportunity to visit these manufacturing plants ourselves. -Dylan[/b][/quote] Well, I have been to many manufacturing facilities in China - on the mainland, in Taiwan, and in Hong Kong - as well as having visited a great number of manufacturing plants around the world. My real job (the one that pays the bills and supports my gear habit [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]) is as an operations/manufacturing consultant for one of the largest management consulting firms in the world - and I have had the wonderful opportunity to spend a lot of time in developing industrial nations specifically looking at manufacturing operations. I can tell you first-hand that electronics manufacturing facilities in China (as well as other developing countries) are actually first rate, and not at all sweat shops. That isn't to say there are no sweatshops operating in some other industries in China, but typically electronics manufacturing and assembly plants are clean, well lit, have excellent air handling and air quality, and employ skilled technicians coming out of local universities and trade schools. I can say the same thing for plants I have worked with in Eastern Europe and Latin America. I can tell you one of the best electronic fabrication and assembly facilities I have ever seen in a 20 yr. career is in Mexico. If you are worried about low cost Chinese (or elsewhere) labor costing "good" jobs in western countries, then protectionism is not the answer. Protectionism only reduces trade and creates long term structural imbalances which can become difficult if not impossible to correct. Case in point - the American Steel Industry. I think over the last two years seven of the largest ten steel companies in the U.S. was operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. You can trace much of that woe to protectionist attitudes towards the steel industry in the early '70s. Because those industries were protected they never had to re-invest to become competitive with emerging technology companies operating in other parts of the world (the mini mill phenomenon). It is true that without protectionism, not all of these companies would have survived, but with protectionism, an entire industry is struggling for survival. Entire manufacturing industries have left our shores for better horizons, especially in electronics. Consumer electronics, personal computers, mass storage, memory, etc...etc...etc... So far, the long term impact of these changes has not been to hurt western economies (while the short term impact to an individual or a community can be devastating when a plant closes to move elsewhere). Free markets (capitalism, for want of a better word) may not be the most efficient system for wealth distribution - however, it is a system that has so far worked better than any other that has been devised. Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[Sergievsky]

Have to agree with Mark. If you like the mic, buy the freakin' mic. Besides, what you do there isn't going to radically change the philiosophy of the people on our side of the Pacific. These slave labor practices and scientific experiments will not be changed by Americans in North America, but by the Chinese (and on a more personal note, the Filipinos). Don't try to solve our problems for us, it won't do any good. Thanks, but short of invading Asia the US can only do so much. Besides, I wouldn't be so hasty on turning communist China into a free economic powerhouse a la US if I were you guys. The Chinese here in the Philippines are among the most astute and briliiant businessmen I know, so much so that they're almost resented for it. Turn China into a 1st world country and I guarantee you they'll make Japan and Germany look like the Bangladesh of the economic world. Peace. Raul

[dansouth]

Mark, thanks for sharing your first-hand experiences. Harold, if the thought of animals held motionless in dark cages and routinely slaughtered upsets you, I pray that you never learn how meat is produced in North America. Forget cowboys on the wide open prarie. Most of these animals spend their entire lives in warehouse-like buildings and never see a ray of sunshine. Should our friends in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and Latin America refuse to buy Mackie mixers and Emu samplers to protest the mistreatment of American (and Canadian) livestock?

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by AmadMozart: [b] Because those industries were protected they never had to re-invest to become competitive with emerging technology companies operating in other parts of the world (the mini mill phenomenon). [/b][/quote] They also couldn't hire labor at 1/10th the cost, and also have to contend with regulations that don't exist elsewhere. That's a big can of worms, competing in the manual labor market with countries that are more overpopulated than we are. Do we relax regulations like the Republicans want, and let the corporations go nuts? I don't think so... Do we lower minimum wage like the Republicans want, again so the corporations can go nuts? I don't think so there either, because that's akin to lower the standard of the American worker to that of everyone else. Is that what Americans want? It's an interesting time in the history of the USA. Follow the path the Republicans want and we basically reduce our game strategy to that of competing with overpopulated nations on their terms. I don't see any point to that. We *could* get real with education and be honest about niche training technical jobs - but that goes against the "college education" myth that is propped up so well here in the U.S.. What it comes down to is come uppance, I'm afraid, since our "leaders" apparently don't want to lead... [b]Free markets (capitalism, for want of a better word) may not be the most efficient system for wealth distribution - however, it is a system that has so far worked better than any other that has been devised. [/b] Capitalism unchecked is completely amoral. Worshipping that god is going to get us into a lot of trouble; the real world operates in a gray area, not black and white "socialists vs. capitalists" like the bozo politicians want one to believe in the U.S.. The country that gets the blend right and optimizes it will "win" in the long run (150 years out perhaps). China's coming economic power will inevitably implode, along with the EU as the population increases. Who comes out the other side of that, say aroud 50 years from now, will be the nation that has managed itself reasonably - since we'll be entering a great period of socio-economic leveling here soon (maybe 10 years from now?). In other words - when every nation can provide workers that are equivalently trained and intelligent, equivalently motivated - the economic differences between the nations disappear. China is still so huge - it's at least 50 years away from having infrastructure akin to what the rest of the world currently takes for granted. It will have to pay for that infrastructure with the gains it will make in the next 25 years, which should equal it out beyond that. At which point there will probably still be great injustice in the world. It will probably be worse; because, just like in America we know it goes on, it's too stratified to point to directly. That's the future. SO What counts is trying to change thinking, a philosophical shift. That's a curveball that could alter everything, and the *only* thing that's going to alter society relative to justice I'm afraid in the NWO. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[audiofreek]

If the American government thought there was any reason,whatsoever, to stop trade believe me there would be a tariff on it. Welcome to the NEW WORLD economy!

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Dylan Walters: [b] So is it safe so say that all Canadians are not fond of the US for some reason or another? Care to clarify? I'm just curious, and am not looking to start a flame war. -Dylan[/b][/quote] I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to say "as a canadian", I was trying to say "as a non-american". For the most part, yeah - non-americans across most fronts are frustrated with the way the US handles international affairs; Europe was just polled on this a couple of weeks ago and the results suggested this. Call it a hunch, but it might have something to do with bullying. The US throws its weight around in every way that serves its interests best. From the Cdn. standpoint, we can't create or modify our own laws without US approval, we can't stop our environment and resources being raped by US interests, sometimes we can't even distribute our own products within our own borders due to US trade interests, and in times like now, we are on the verge of laying off 300 000 workers because of US protectionism that hurts them as well. This is just Canada. Overseas, people protest a mere visit by an american president - that in itself speaks volumes. BUT I find this is getting way off topic so if you want to continue this discussion, we should take it offline. Email me if you wish to talk about this. Peace, Harold

[rold]

Dan, you make a very good point in pointing out the injustices of our own animal rights issues. However, human rights play a large part in my leaning towards a boycott. There has got to be serious pressure on countries like China to change the way they treat human beings, otherwise they'll just keep with the old ways.

[Dylan]

Thanks for clarify your thoughts for me, Rold! I always like to hear what people outside the US have to say about America. Thanks, Dylan

[GY]

We gave away LA harbor... We gave away Panama... We have become our own worst enemy. Why not boycott or whine about the politicians that allowed our country to become what is is?

[Anderton]

<> I dunno...so what if mainland China just decides to up and nationalize them? There's still a potential flashpoint there, especially when "honor" is at stake. <> Yes, war is no longer cost-effective. Weird concept, isn't it? If multinational corps really do run the world, they of course would not want to have their assets fried by bombs. On the other hand, little conflicts help keep the arms industry going. Best of both worlds for those who make money from war... At the risk of inflaming things further, I think it's important to recognize that injustice happens [i]wherever there are human beings.[/i] Some instances are more flagrant than others; the Chinese handling of Tibet is, without question, a grotesque example of a society imposing its will on another. But this is nothing new, nor invented by the Chinese. Visit some reservations sometime if you want to see what the US policy on native Americans hath wrought. But that's in the past, you say? Not really. Look where the government wants to dispose of nuclear wastes. Treaties from the 1800s are still being abrogated if it serves the interest of the government. France has right-wingers upset about Islamic immigrants. The ritual slaughtering of sheep doesn't sit too well in Europe as a whole, either. And on balance, I'm there are people in China who feel that the invasion of Tibet was wrong, and as pointed out in the story of the hidden video, there are people who are trying to expose things that are wrong. Threatened species of animals are brought into the US daily, under horrible conditions. My point is this: cruelty is not a Chinese thing, an American thing, a Hitlerian thing. It's a HUMAN thing that can rear its ugly head at any time. Fortunately, compassion, tolerance, and the desire to make a better world are also a human thing. We have to do everything we can to support the right side in this conflict, which is why I think this topic has generated so much discussion: What can WE, as individuals, do to help out? I believe that's the real impetus behind the very first post. The question was broader than "Should I buy a C1?" It was "what can I do to help good triumph over evil?"